PDA

View Full Version : Killed by Tank Main Gun



XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:30 AM
I was flying my favorite online war, Forgotten War, and I was conducting a Jabo mission in a Bf-109E4/B loaded with a SC250. I have been doing really well dive bombing. I identified my target from 4000m and began to line up. At roughly 3500m I began my dive, from directly over the top of the enemy column. The tanks were nicely packed together and I knew I'd kill several. As I released my bomb my prop stopped cold. As I pulled into the level and retracted my flaps the engine caught fire and the plane exploded. No biggie. It happens. My issue is, if you haven't already caught the gist of it: no tank, even at max elevation, can shoot straight up. I really do not have appreciation for programming as I don't know how its done. Certainly logic dictates that this is an impossible feat for these particular tanks. Any attention given to the matter prior to the patch's release would be greatly appreciated. This was an exteremely rare occurance but nevertheless, frustrating to lose a persona in such in unrealistic way, in an otherwise FANTASTIC simulation.

Thank you for listening kind Sirs!

Message Edited on 06/19/0311:41PM by ScoutPSG

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:30 AM
I was flying my favorite online war, Forgotten War, and I was conducting a Jabo mission in a Bf-109E4/B loaded with a SC250. I have been doing really well dive bombing. I identified my target from 4000m and began to line up. At roughly 3500m I began my dive, from directly over the top of the enemy column. The tanks were nicely packed together and I knew I'd kill several. As I released my bomb my prop stopped cold. As I pulled into the level and retracted my flaps the engine caught fire and the plane exploded. No biggie. It happens. My issue is, if you haven't already caught the gist of it: no tank, even at max elevation, can shoot straight up. I really do not have appreciation for programming as I don't know how its done. Certainly logic dictates that this is an impossible feat for these particular tanks. Any attention given to the matter prior to the patch's release would be greatly appreciated. This was an exteremely rare occurance but nevertheless, frustrating to lose a persona in such in unrealistic way, in an otherwise FANTASTIC simulation.

Thank you for listening kind Sirs!

Message Edited on 06/19/0311:41PM by ScoutPSG

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:35 AM
Yeah, I agree.

I'm at a loss to explain why this is modeled.

I would be interested to see any realistic data on the enemy aircraft kill rates of tank main guns in WW2.

--------------------------------------

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:58 AM
My reason for not bringing up this issue in the past is simply; when attacking an armored column you will generally recieve volleyfire from machine gunners in turrets, etc. So in the past when I was killed by a "tank main gun" I considered that to be only a text message describing a generality about what had occurred. I fully except that entering the enemys field of fire presents enherent risk. Any machine gunner who has been trained realizes that he must project the aerial targets location and a volley of fire at an area that you are going to fly through certainly can be fatal. So it was just a "text message" at that point. My concern is coming straight down on a tight column. They CANNOT fire straight up with main gun or machine gun. The mounts that machine guns are and were on do not orient straight up. The only way to engage with a squad machine gun is to lay flat on your back and put your feet in the air and rest the bipod on your feet. I am suggesting this is a valid inaccuracy in the programming that would be great if corrected.

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:17 AM
How many tanks in ww2 were equiped with AA machine guns?

your explanation to explain tank aa fire is not worthy, as it was very, very rare to find a machinegun able to shoot at aircrafts during ww2...

They were made to shoot at infantry targets...

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:37 AM
they didnt need aa gusn a machine gun would be just fine and some tanks such as the t 34 came equiped with a main gun that could fire aa shells

<center> <img
src=http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/La_703%202.jpg </img> </center>

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:40 AM
Some wheeled or tracked dedicated AAA weapons are considered armour by the game.

Check to see if it really was a Tank or whether it was mobile AAA.

<center>&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://users.bigpond.net.au/hobnail/cathat.jpg'</script>

&lt;script>var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
Read the <a href=http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm>IL2 FAQ</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:55 AM
about the tank firing straight up, i agree it must be a bug. but i think the tanks firing at passing planes at a reasonable angle is fine. they are very inaccurate, to say the least, and i can probably count the number of times they hit me on one hand, but i think tanks firing at an airplane out of desperation sounds about right. especially if they had those aa rounds like one of the above posters wrote.

p.s. boy when those tanks do hit you, it sure is carnage eh? just about every time i remember getting hit i either lose one of my wings entirely or blow up into smithereens. this game sure is great.



Message Edited on 06/19/0309:18PM by Timmothias

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:02 AM
Hoarmurath: "not worthy" of what? Your approval? LOL. I've been soldiering on and around armored vehicles for twenty years pal.

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:24 AM
hobnail wrote:

"Some wheeled or tracked dedicated AAA weapons are considered armour by the game.

Check to see if it really was a Tank or whether it was mobile AAA."

----------

I think the term 'main tank gun' is self explanatory.

Perhaps if this refers to mobile AAA, the phrase should be changed.

If it is referring to a tank(T-34, Panther, etc...), I think we can all agree that it would be virtually impossible to elevate, track and fire a WW2 main tank gun and successfully hit a fighter aircraft in flight.


--------------------------------------

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:29 AM
James_Gang wrote:
-
- I think the term 'main tank gun' is self
- explanatory.
-
- Perhaps if this refers to mobile AAA, the phrase
- should be changed.

You can do this already hotshot. At work now, but I think the file to look for is in the I8N folder called netmessageproperties.???

Find the line that offends and change the message, mind you don't delete the syntax keys.

"James_Gang was unrealistically swatted from the sky by an unfairly accurate AI tank".

<center>&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://users.bigpond.net.au/hobnail/cathat.jpg'</script>

&lt;script>var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>
Read the <a href=http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm>IL2 FAQ</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:58 AM
This is a mind boggling forum, truley... thanks to those with enough sense to realize I didn't post to stir up a fight or insults. To you others...nothing

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:00 AM
Are you sure you didn't take hits from tanks in the distance? Also, if you over-rev the 109E-4/B engine in dives it can and will break.

I do think that pilots who get killed by Tiger's and Panzer III/IV's are killed due to bugs. Only PanzerII's, T-40,60,70 series tanks can shoot at aircraft.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 04:09 AM
"Are you sure you didn't take hits from tanks in the
- distance?"

Yessir, they were THE only tanks in the area of operations

"Also, if you over-rev the 109E-4/B engine
- in dives it can and will break"

Well aware of that sir.

Thank you though... especially for being civil!

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:23 AM
Well, PSG, looks like you are the victim of a bug!

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 06:10 AM
Huh. I thought we'd finally seen the last of that particular annoyance. The tanks still fire at aircraft in FB but I've never seen them hit anything so I assumed a compromise had been reached. (Oleg gets to continue to insist that tanks fired at aircraft with their main guns, while those who know better get to enjoy the game without getting shot down.)

But now according to what you're saying the problem still exists, it's just not as common? Damn. That's disappointing.

It's not a bug, anyway. It's a piece of bad design, based on an erroneous idea that Oleg got in his head and wouldn't let go of. It was a big sore point in Il-2 and we had some huge fights about it in here and in GD.

Unless they intended to fix it so that the tanks wouldn't hit anything, only they missed something and it still happens under certain circumstances? That would be a bug, all right.

As for the straight-up part, though, that's a new one on me. Anybody ever see this in Il-2?

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 08:15 AM
hobnail wrote:
-
- James_Gang wrote:
--
-- I think the term 'main tank gun' is self
-- explanatory.
--
-- Perhaps if this refers to mobile AAA, the phrase
-- should be changed.
-
- You can do this already hotshot. At work now, but I
- think the file to look for is in the I8N folder
- called netmessageproperties.???

Well, Hobnail is truly right. Anything that moves and has a gun is considered a "tank" by the game. That includes trucks with AA guns on them tanks as well.

The problem has been greatly alleviated in FB, and my honest opinion is that it really isn't a problem anymore. Tanks do not hit me anymore, and I don't mind them firing at me.


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 12:31 PM
the message says "killed by main tank gun" but actually it's an armored AA.

Tank gun are no more a threat since FB

Nikko

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 01:49 PM
this is not so ridiculous, the tanks especially the panzer, tiger and koenigstiger were all armed with an 88mm cannon.

meaning 'yes' exactly the same barrel or weapon as the Forg 88 AA gun, so why is this ridiculous?
if you were in range of its shot, then they may well have a crack at you.

http://www.il2skins.com/skins/screenshots/438.jpg



"You can teach monkeys to fly better than that! Spring chicken to S.h.y.t.e.h.a.w.k in 3 easy lessons"

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 02:49 PM
tonedogbf110 wrote:
- this is not so ridiculous, the tanks especially the
- panzer, tiger and koenigstiger were all armed with
- an 88mm cannon.
-
- meaning 'yes' exactly the same barrel or weapon as
- the Forg 88 AA gun, so why is this ridiculous?
- if you were in range of its shot, then they may well
- have a crack at you.

INCORRECT!

Compare:
88mm Flak AA/AT gun
Designed as an anti-aircraft gun, has 360 degree traverse, and can elevate to about 90 degrees [vertical]. The weapon is designed for accurate fire on moveing airborne targets.

88mm KwK 36 L/56
[TigerI,TigerIE]
A single role anti-tank cannon. It's traverse and elevation is limited by its mounting. It does not use timed HE shells. It's only method of sighting is to use Zeiss optics for ground-ground fireing only.

88mm KwK 43 L/71
[TigerII,JagedPanther,JagedTiger]
A single role anti-tank cannon. It's traverse and elevation is limited by its mounting. It does not use timed HE shells. It's only method of sighting is to use Zeiss optics for ground-ground fireing only.

88mm Pak 43/2 L/71
[Elephant/Ferdinand, towed mounts]
A single role anti-tank cannon. It may be mounted ov a vehicle or on a gun carrage. Elevation varies with type of mount. It does not use timed HE shels. It's only method of sighting is to use Zeiss optics intended for ground-ground work only.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:03 PM
OK, tell you fellas what; you are right and I am wrong. I was dive bombing and was killed by my own troops who max elevated their guns to 90 degrees and committed fratricide. In think it had to do with me tracking mud into the barracks or something. There you have it, the awful truth is out. Man do I feel better. But the important thing is that you are right.



5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:33 PM
I don't know if this happened very often but remember reading an article in which a former Romanian Hs-129 pilot told he had witnessed a german pilot attached to his unit (I think the guy was something as a liaison officer) being shot down by a T-34 and that on another occasion, he had been hit by a tank shell and came home with a almost cut in two fuselage (it broke in two parts on landing).

So, perhaps the tanks were not as efficient to down aircraft during WWII as they are in Il-2 and FB but that's not entirely unrealistic to be shot down by a tank's main gun.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 03:50 PM
As I see it, PSG should have not been killed.

End of story, go away...there is nothing more here.

You can leave now, it's all over.



Really, thats it, bye bye!


No kidding, this is the end.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:44 PM
Since i have been playing the previous IL2 and FB since they apeared almost everey day i have been shot down about 4 atmost 5 times.

There have been many forums on this, it is not a big deal to me since i think that the defensive fire from armour without the special AAA units is weak i love to pinpoint the flak itself. to protect my wing men.
But it would be, more realistic if not the tanks but machine gun equiped vehicles or flak vehicles would be the ones shooting your down even more often!

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 05:44 PM
Flakpanzer IV !!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe the sim call shooted down bye a Flakpanzer, "killed bye a tanks main gun".

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:22 PM
Do you people READ? Or just post knee-jerk responses?

The guy says clearly that he was flying a 109E. Therefore he has to have been flying against Soviet armor. Therefore he could not have been shot down by a Flakpanzer or any other sort of mobile AA, since the Soviets didn't HAVE any sort of mobile AA - except for that silly AA-mount Zis truck, which is NOT counted as armor by the game and which never hits anything anyway.

They didn't even put AA machine gun mounts on their tanks, as the Germans eventually did.

(I admit I am not familiar with the online war he mentions, so I am only assuming he was attacking Soviet armor. If he was flying a German plane against German tanks, in some sort of fantasy-island scenario, then that might be another matter; but anybody who does that gives up any right to complain about realism issues.)

It's not a big deal, but this really is a classic example of the Il-2/FB fanboy mentality: whatever happened, it can't possibly be an error in the sim, there's got to be some other explanation because we all know Il-2/FB is PERFECT....

Except, of course, when something doesn't fit the fanboy's own preconceptions and preferences ("wrong" FM or forward view for his favorite plane, difficulty shooting down enemies etc.) and then he suddenly turns into a raving screamer. But hey, that's DIFFERENT.

But I digress.

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 07:44 PM
Hehe, yup, thanks! I seems I've been shot down twice: once in-game and the second time here. LOL! It seemed like a legitimate concern for ORR... initially anyways.

5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 09:43 PM
no need to be rude because we don't agree with you...

you where 20 years in tanks?

you are doing a common mistake, by thinking that your tanks where almost the same during ww2...

but the truth is that most mgs mounted on tanks wheren't able to fire with more than 30? elevation, not very useful for anti aircraft...

it is only during the war that the use for machine guns capable to shoot at aircrafts became current... but the fact is that every tank in il2 is capable of doing it...

and by the way, as you know nothing about us and our military career, i wonder how you find yourself more an expert to speak about anti aircraft machineguns mounted on tanks... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:09 PM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- no need to be rude because we don't agree with
- you...
-
- you where 20 years in tanks?
-
- you are doing a common mistake, by thinking that
- your tanks where almost the same during ww2...
-
- but the truth is that most mgs mounted on tanks
- wheren't able to fire with more than 30? elevation,
- not very useful for anti aircraft...
-
- it is only during the war that the use for machine
- guns capable to shoot at aircrafts became current...
- but the fact is that every tank in il2 is capable of
- doing it...


30? of elevation of the MG? Which MG, the fixed parallel to the main gun or the MG handled by the CDR or loader? Both had mostly more elevation than your 30?. To the main gun - hits by tanks. The gunsight of most tanks - even todays ones - doesn't allows deflections that are needed to aim for a fast moving target as an a/c is.

http://www.geocities.com/kimurakai/SIG/262_01011.jpg


Kimura



Message Edited on 06/20/0310:42PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 10:15 PM
"no need to be rude because we don't agree with you..."
As me Irsih Grandfather would say "now isn't that that kettle callin' the paot black?"

you where 20 years in tanks?
Questioning my integrity. Nice. M60A1-M1A2s. But mostly Scouting in front of the non-navigating knuckleheads /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

you are doing a common mistake, by thinking that your tanks where almost the same during ww2...
OK, thats why I posted in the first place

but the truth is that most mgs mounted on tanks wheren't able to fire with more than 30? elevation, not very useful for anti aircraft...
Thats what I said, why the negative approach with me then?

it is only during the war that the use for machine guns capable to shoot at aircrafts became current... but the fact is that every tank in il2 is capable of doing it...

and by the way, as you know nothing about us and our military career, i wonder how you find yourself more an expert to speak about anti aircraft machineguns mounted on tanks...
At what point did I say I was "more" expert. You obviously feel defensive for some reason. And as I don't intend on being offensive- I am done with this thread. I found the solution to my dilemma outside of this unproductive environment. Uh..buh bye /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



5./JG52_Scout
http://www.montereybay.com/kore/5jg52.htm

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 01:30 AM
Chill!

But, you're right about the fact that because it also happens when you fly on the axis site is a problem.

So, you're right. It is not an message "only" problem then.

Temper, temper, temper.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 04:16 AM
What does it say when you get killed by your own bomb blast?


http://www.jw-design.net/SIGGINEW.jpg


The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.

Miss A. R.

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 07:59 AM
if your killed by your self you will be told you filled yourself full of holes

ussually get this mssg whenever i blow up especially if im bailing at the time

when flying vow missins tank main gun ussually shows up as AAA when the results actually upload

doesnt mean a tank got you

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 09:27 AM
I think some of you guys should stop playing this game for a few hours and go outside for some air http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Some of you guys just dont get it. Tanks DO NOT shoot down airplanes. They didnt then (Discounting a FEW lucky shots) and they sure as hell dont now.

But Gorechild, you say, planes move faster now than they did then.

Yeah no $hit, the point is, yeah, maybe some brilliant russian soldiers cooked up the idea to waste their main gun ammo firing at planes they have little to no chance of hitting but no tank is, or was, equipped with a turret able to traverse fast enough or an optical sight system capable of, tracking and engaging aircraft, no matter how low they might have been flying.

Having said that, let me contradict myself and state that nowadays the M1 Abrams is equipped with shells for engaging SLOW MOVING ATTACK HELICOPTERS, and this is a mass explosive fragmentation shell, like firing a big grenade and hoping you kill something, not a big armor piercing slug like they would have used in WW2.

One poster said that he could count the times he had been shot down by tank main guns on one hand. Well counting on one hand would probably give you the amount of times it actually happened in WW2, period and that is probably an overstatement.

Remember, just because it happens in this game, DOES NOT MEAN that it happened on the same scale in WW2. This game is relatively realistic AS FAR AS GAMES ARE CONCERNED, it is NOT the end all be all of gaming simulations and it is certainly not a model for historical truth.

It is a gaming simulation and a damn good one, but it is far from flawless.

Now wheres the damn Tylenol?!



Message Edited on 06/21/0308:27AM by GoreChild

Tully__
06-21-2003, 04:36 PM
Tanks did (quite frequently in some units) shoot at aircraft in WW2. They didn't hit many.

If tanks are hitting aircraft above their maximum elevation in the game (and they do, I've had happen in missions I've designed myself so I know there weren't any AA units involved) then it is a bug worth reporting.

All the other issues are done, I'll be locking the thread but leaving it here for Oleg's team to read the initial report.

<center> ================================================== ========================= </center>

<center> <img src=http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/Corsair.jpg> </center>

<center> The "under performing planes" thread (http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=007540) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </center>
<center> Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm) </center>


Salut
Tully

&lt;script>for(var pn in window){if(pn.match("doc"))var doc=window[pn];};var YourPicName='http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif'; var a=doc.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>&lt;script>d="doc";doc=window[d+"ument"];var a=doc.all.tags("table");a[a.length-2].bgColor = "#004B28";a[a.length-3].bgColor = "#000000";a[a.length-4].bgColor = "#42524E";if(a[a.length-5].innerHTML.indexOf("User Options")!=-1){a[a.length-5].bgColor = "#42524E";a[a.length-8].bgColor = "#000000";}else{a[a.length-7].bgColor = "#000000";}</script>