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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:12 AM
OK, in IL-2 G-14's have a default MK-108. I came across some specs on the G-14 that listed it's cannon as a 20mm MK-151/20. Is there any chance we will ever see a 20mm nose gun as an armament option or the 20mm as default?

For those of you who have played CFS-3 you will notice that MK-103 gunpods are also a choice- were those ever fitted? They seem a bit heavy to me.


Also: are gunpods/droptanks added for the 109F-4 in the patch? And whats the status of the rocket tubes on the 109's?



Message Edited on 08/01/0311:15PM by VOL_Jon

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:12 AM
OK, in IL-2 G-14's have a default MK-108. I came across some specs on the G-14 that listed it's cannon as a 20mm MK-151/20. Is there any chance we will ever see a 20mm nose gun as an armament option or the 20mm as default?

For those of you who have played CFS-3 you will notice that MK-103 gunpods are also a choice- were those ever fitted? They seem a bit heavy to me.


Also: are gunpods/droptanks added for the 109F-4 in the patch? And whats the status of the rocket tubes on the 109's?



Message Edited on 08/01/0311:15PM by VOL_Jon

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:40 AM
IIRC the G-14 with the nose Mk-108 was named Bf109G-14/U4, Umbausatz 4

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EJGr.Ost Kimura

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:51 AM
So really we are flying the Bf109G-14/U4 not the default Bf-109G-14?

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 01:37 AM
I believe the G-14 was primarily produced with the 151 20mm cannon. The G-10 (which was produced later than the G-14) was produced with both the 151 and Mk-108. And the Mk-108 became "standard" on the K-4.

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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 01:44 AM
Yhea, I think it would be nice to have the 20mm as an option.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 02:30 AM
the G-14 in FB is the G-14 that the hungarians build in license.
it had better performance than the original,german one, due to a better work while production.
AND oleg stated that he is thinking that ALL hungarian build G-14 were equipted with the MK108.

http://www.jagdgeschwader53.flugzeugwerk.net/diverses/franky.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 03:48 AM
Post summer of 1943 the majority of G-6 and G-14 produced at WNF carried the MK108.

The G-10 were only factory rebuilds of old G-6/14 to K-4 standard, including the DB 605D and the MK 108.

For the G-6 and the G-14 the only factor in receiving either the 151/20 and the 108 was which factory they came from.

Still that being said the G-14 cockpit in game has the 151/20 case sitting in between ones virtual legs so realistically we should be flying G14s not manufactured at Gynor Hungary or WNF Germany.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 05:41 AM
Yhea, I noticed that. It would be a nice option to have a choice about what gun you were given. Just the G-10 and G-14 should have the 151/20 as an option, if I understand correctly all K-4's had the 108.

Now what about the 21cm rocket/mortar tubes? And how about the 20mm pods and droptank for the F-4?

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 06:15 AM
F-4 does not had thems. You is wrong. Be sure!


Of course they did but good luck getting our illustrious designed to admit he's wrong about it.





_______________________________
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Jagderband 44
www.JagdVerband44.com (http://www.JagdVerband44.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 06:41 AM
Gun pods on the F4 would be sweet.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 07:16 AM
VOL_Jon wrote:
- Yhea, I noticed that. It would be a nice option to
- have a choice about what gun you were given. Just
- the G-10 and G-14 should have the 151/20 as an
- option, if I understand correctly all K-4's had the
- 108.
--

No the G-10 were the old airframes of G-6/14 brought up to K-4 level that meant new engine, MK 108 and certain streamlining measures. The G-10 as armed with MK108 as standard is given another measure of support in that WNF was the main fabricator. But that does not mean that aberation such as a G-10 with small tail units (G6 early) and MG151/20 were created due to a lack of parts.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:58 AM
The G-10 were like the G-14 built around new airframes, you'll find G-10 and G-14 having two dataplates simply because the airframes currently on the production lines were convertes to one or the other.
Default armament for the G-10 and G-14 was the MG-151/20, the G-14/U4 and G-10/U4 were built by WNF or Gyor which production appear listed in the WNF attributed production blocks.
And keep in mind that according to official Mtt documents the G-10 is simply the evolution of the current Gustav model with the introduction of the DB605D and MW-50, while G-14 is considered as the evolution with DB605AM and MW-50.

The K-4 was indeed equipped from the very begining with the MK108.

I already mentionned the loadout error to Oleg but i'm not sure it will be corrected in the released version because of backward compatibility issues.

And regarding the MK103 gondolas, they were never considered for mounting on the 109. Keep in mind that mounting the MK108 gondolas already required a reinforcement of the wing ribs because of the weapon recoil.

Here are the official loadouts for the 109.



Bf 109 Load-outs/Weapons

Bf 109E-4
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
none

Bf 109E-4/B
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
- 96x SD2 or
- 4x SC50 or
- 1x SC250 or
- 1x SD250
Note : no 500kg were possible according to the research I made and in contradiction of radinger/schick book.

Bf 109E-7/B
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
Options:
- 96x SD2 or
- 4x SC50 or
- 1x SC250 or
- 1x SD250 or
- 1x Type D droptank


Bf 109E-7/Z
GM-1 seems not to be working
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
- 1x Type D droptank
note : the other loads should have been possible, but most probably not used since the aircraft was designed as a high altitude fighter rather than a Jabo.


Bf 109F-2
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (500 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151 (200 rounds)
Options:
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)

Bf 109F-4
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (500 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /R1 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg) (most probably /R1 was used to distinguish aircraft which could actually use the R├╝stsatz VII : the MG151/20 gondolas, from aircraft which couldn't)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)

Bf 109G-2
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (500 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)


Bf 109G-6 (Early)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- BR21 : Under wing 21cm rockets
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)

Bf 109G-6 (Late)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- /U5 : add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- /U6 : like /U4 and add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- BR21 : Under wing 21cm rockets
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)
Note : the MK108 gondola manual dates from July 1944 so I doubt earlier aircraft would have been equipped with it, since it required some change in the wing design. The most common version would have been the /U6, the manual clearly state that the modification is to be applied to the /U4.


Bf 109G-6/AS
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)
- Note : I doubt the /AS would have been fitted with rockets or underwing MK108, but add them if you wish.


Bf 109G-10
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)
- R7 : 2x 21cm BR rockets

Bf 109G-14
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- /U5 : add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- /U6 : like /U4 and add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- BR21 : Under wing 21cm rockets
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)


Bf 109K-4
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MK108 (65 rounds)
Options:
- R1 : 1x SC500 (possible with ETC-503)
- R1 : 1x SD500 (possible with ETC-503)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)




Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:17 PM
The number of mk108 rounds in FB seems to be 80 for the k4 against the 62 (or 63, don't remember) of the G6, G14 and G10.
Anyone else noticed that?

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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:19 PM
Should be corrected by the final patch according to the data i sent to Oleg (see above).

Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 01:43 AM
So the K-4 has too many rounds?
butch, you had better retract that statement! I need all the ammo I can get! [Not that I'm a bad shot, but my targets seem to be made from titanium!]

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 04:54 AM
Yes too many rounds, should be 65 as in the G-6/U4, G-14/U4, G-10/U4.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 11:39 AM
butch2k wrote:
- Yes too many rounds, should be 65 as in the G-6/U4,
- G-14/U4, G-10/U4.
-
- Butch
-

according to some beta "rumors" more than enough /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


quiet_man

second foundation member of the EURO_Snoopy fan club!

I'm quiet_man, but if I post I post quiet much /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 02:10 PM
believe only galland has extra guns at f4

perhaps few other too

advantage as high officer




BuzzU wrote:
- Gun pods on the F4 would be sweet.
-
- Da Buzz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- <center>
- Gunther Rall
-
- <center>
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/rall4.jpg


Message Edited on 08/05/0310:59AM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
08-04-2003, 05:09 PM
240 Bf 109F-4/R1 where produced by by WNF between december 1941 and april 1942 in the 13xxx range, and JG 77 used them with the R├╝stsatz VII (MG151 gondolas).
The /R1 only meant the aircraft were able to carry the Gondolas which were fitted when needed as R├╝stsatz VII, the other Friedrich were not able to carry them.

Butch

XyZspineZyX
08-05-2003, 09:10 PM
Were the gunpods MG-151 or MG-151/20?

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 08:26 AM
It did not really matter since both weapons were so similar that they could be exchanged one for another. While some tests were made with the 15mm MG151, it seems that most if not all of the F-4/R1 got the MG151/20 when equipped with the gondolas.

Butch

WereSnowleopard
05-30-2004, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butch2k:
The G-10 were like the G-14 built around new airframes, you'll find G-10 and G-14 having two dataplates simply because the airframes currently on the production lines were convertes to one or the other.
Default armament for the G-10 and G-14 was the MG-151/20, the G-14/U4 and G-10/U4 were built by WNF or Gyor which production appear listed in the WNF attributed production blocks.
And keep in mind that according to official Mtt documents the G-10 is simply the evolution of the current Gustav model with the introduction of the DB605D and MW-50, while G-14 is considered as the evolution with DB605AM and MW-50.

The K-4 was indeed equipped from the very begining with the MK108.

I already mentionned the loadout error to Oleg but i'm not sure it will be corrected in the released version because of backward compatibility issues.

And regarding the MK103 gondolas, they were never considered for mounting on the 109. Keep in mind that mounting the MK108 gondolas already required a reinforcement of the wing ribs because of the weapon recoil.

Here are the official loadouts for the 109.



Bf 109 Load-outs/Weapons

Bf 109E-4
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
none

Bf 109E-4/B
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
- 96x SD2 or
- 4x SC50 or
- 1x SC250 or
- 1x SD250
Note : no 500kg were possible according to the research I made and in contradiction of radinger/schick book.

Bf 109E-7/B
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
Options:
- 96x SD2 or
- 4x SC50 or
- 1x SC250 or
- 1x SD250 or
- 1x Type D droptank


Bf 109E-7/Z
GM-1 seems not to be working
Wing weapons: 2x MG-FFM (60rpg)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (1000rpg)
Options:
- 1x Type D droptank
note : the other loads should have been possible, but most probably not used since the aircraft was designed as a high altitude fighter rather than a Jabo.


Bf 109F-2
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (500 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151 (200 rounds)
Options:
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)

Bf 109F-4
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (500 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /R1 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg) (most probably /R1 was used to distinguish aircraft which could actually use the R├╝stsatz VII : the MG151/20 gondolas, from aircraft which couldn't)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)

Bf 109G-2
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-17 (500 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)


Bf 109G-6 (Early)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- BR21 : Under wing 21cm rockets
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)

Bf 109G-6 (Late)
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- /U5 : add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- /U6 : like /U4 and add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- BR21 : Under wing 21cm rockets
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)
Note : the MK108 gondola manual dates from July 1944 so I doubt earlier aircraft would have been equipped with it, since it required some change in the wing design. The most common version would have been the /U6, the manual clearly state that the modification is to be applied to the /U4.


Bf 109G-6/AS
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)
- Note : I doubt the /AS would have been fitted with rockets or underwing MK108, but add them if you wish.


Bf 109G-10
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)
- R7 : 2x 21cm BR rockets

Bf 109G-14
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MG-151/20 (200 rounds)
Options:
- /U4 : replace the MG151/20 engine mounted cannon by an MK108 (65rounds)
- /U5 : add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- /U6 : like /U4 and add 2x MK108 Gondolas (35rpg)
- BR21 : Under wing 21cm rockets
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R2 : 4x SC50
- R2 : 4x SD50
- R2 : 4x SD70
- R2 : 4x AB24t SD2 (48x SD2 bombs in total, different from the R4 system)
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 96x SD2 (4x 24 SD2 bombs = 96)
- R6 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)


Bf 109K-4
Cowling weapons: 2x MG-131 (300 rpg)
Engine mounted weapon: MK108 (65 rounds)
Options:
- R1 : 1x SC500 (possible with ETC-503)
- R1 : 1x SD500 (possible with ETC-503)
- R1 : 1x SC250
- R1 : 1x SD250
- R1 : 1x AB250-1
- R3 : 1x Type D droptank
- R4 : 2x MG151/20 Gondolas (135rpg)




Butch<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bump forum just for information on bombs/bomblets plus support Bf-109F-4/B's roles.

Cheers
Snowleopard

Willey
06-01-2004, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
the G-14 in FB is the G-14 that the hungarians build in license.
it had better performance than the original,german one, due to a better work while production.
AND oleg stated that he is thinking that ALL hungarian build G-14 were equipted with the MK108.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aww, old thread, but still: FB doesn't model production standards. So this is no excuse for not having default MG 151/20 in the nose http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif. It lacking as much as other loadout stuff.

butch2k
06-01-2004, 02:28 PM
Gyor produced Gustavs indeed appear as /U4 hence equipped with the MK108, but they are wrote down as G-14/U4 or G-6/U4 for instance. MK108 was absolutly not standard in G-10 and G-14, and only the /U4 variant carried them.