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View Full Version : What's with the new Do-335A-0 and Bf-109K4 C3 1.98Ata



LUFT11_Hoflich
02-01-2006, 12:53 PM
What is new in the "new" 109K compared to the current one? and the Do-335A-0, did it saw combat and is it a real match for late war allied stuff?

Thx..

H¶f...

Kurfurst__
02-01-2006, 12:55 PM
The new 1,98ata K-4 has a more powerful engine, with 200 extra horsepower in it, and is more powerful below 6000 meter altitude than the current one.

As for the Do 335, Pierre Clostermann swore that he chased one, but afaik it saw no action, just almost.

berg417448
02-01-2006, 01:09 PM
The operational career of the Do 335 is mostly the subject of rumor. A few Do 335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are rumored to have flown a few operational missions with EK 335 but I've never seen anything that proved this. There is no evidence of it being met in combat. The only sighting I've ever read about is the one that Kurfurst referred to in Closterman's book.

KG26_Alpha
02-01-2006, 01:15 PM
Do 335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are thought to have flown a number of operational missions with EK335. Some were also used by III/KG2 in the Spring of 1945. There is no evidence of the type being met in combat, so it seems likely that all the operations were high speed interdiction missions - many taking place at night.

Check here
http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg2.htm

lrrp22
02-01-2006, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
The new 1,98ata K-4 has a more powerful engine, with 200 extra horsepower in it, and is more powerful below 6000 meter altitude than the current one.



Don't you mean 150 PS? Aren't we going from the 1850 PS DB605DB at 1.8 ata with B4/MW-50 to the 2000 PS DB605DC at 1.98 ata with C3/MW-50?

LRRP

Kurfurst__
02-01-2006, 01:29 PM
Theoretically we have DM engined 109K and G-10, which developed 1,75ata/1800PS at SL. The DB did develop 1850PS at 1.8ata, but from the 6730 db doc it seems that quality variations of the B4 fuel (already touching the limits with 8,5!! CR AND 1,8ata) led to the need of retading spark plugs by 4 degree, technically meaning a loss of 50PS at max power, but from what I've taken from the text, they considered it nonexistent in practice between two moderately worn engine and because of production tolerances (ie. 2.5% on power). Something very similiar that they done to the Merlin 266 on the other side that time.

We had an 585kph K-4 at SL, the DB/1.8ata one would do 595, the DC/1.98ata 607 kph at SL, so I'd guess it's an early DM or ******ed ignition DB.

luftluuver
02-01-2006, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
The operational career of the Do 335 is mostly the subject of rumor. A few Do 335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are rumored to have flown a few operational missions with EK 335 but I've never seen anything that proved this. There is no evidence of it being met in combat. The only sighting I've ever read about is the one that Kurfurst referred to in Closterman's book. So which of the Wnr 24010 to 240123 went to this unit?

Same goes for WNr 230001 to 230014.

The only reference of a Do335, the V3, configured for photo work, going to a LW unit, 1./Aufkl.Gr Ob.d.l, in July 44 for some operational evaluation testing. It is not known if the flight by Lt Wolfgang Ziese ever took place as the a/c was continually u/s.

berg417448
02-01-2006, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
The operational career of the Do 335 is mostly the subject of rumor. A few Do 335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are rumored to have flown a few operational missions with EK 335 but I've never seen anything that proved this. There is no evidence of it being met in combat. The only sighting I've ever read about is the one that Kurfurst referred to in Closterman's book. So which of the Wnr 24010 to 240123 went to this unit?

Same goes for WNr 230001 to 230014.

The only reference of a Do335, the V3, configured for photo work, going to a LW unit, 1./Aufkl.Gr Ob.d.l, in July 44 for some operational evaluation testing. It is not known if the flight by Lt Wolfgang Ziese ever took place as the a/c was continually u/s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I wish I could help you. None of my source material says which WNr was assigned.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
The operational career of the Do 335 is mostly the subject of rumor. A few Do 335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are rumored to have flown a few operational missions with EK 335 but I've never seen anything that proved this. There is no evidence of it being met in combat. The only sighting I've ever read about is the one that Kurfurst referred to in Closterman's book.

Maybe not. I seem to remember reading or seeing an interview with a pilot who said he saw one but it was much to fast for him to even bother chasing. Of course, this is still no proof.

Fritz

lrrp22
02-01-2006, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Theoretically we have DM engined 109K and G-10, which developed 1,75ata/1800PS at SL. The DB did develop 1850PS at 1.8ata, but from the 6730 db doc it seems that quality variations of the B4 fuel (already touching the limits with 8,5!! CR AND 1,8ata) led to the need of retading spark plugs by 4 degree, technically meaning a loss of 50PS at max power, but from what I've taken from the text, they considered it nonexistent in practice between two moderately worn engine and because of production tolerances (ie. 2.5% on power). Something very similiar that they done to the Merlin 266 on the other side that time.

We had an 585kph K-4 at SL, the DB/1.8ata one would do 595, the DC/1.98ata 607 kph at SL, so I'd guess it's an early DM or ******ed ignition DB.

That's what I thought. But I believe the in-game K-4 does do 595 ph @ SL. I haven't tested recently but IIRC as of 4.01m I could hit 595 kph without much problem . It did require a bit of rudder input to trim out that last 4-5 kph, but it did make it.

LRRP

berg417448
02-01-2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:


Maybe not. I seem to remember reading or seeing an interview with a pilot who said he saw one but it was much to fast for him to even bother chasing. Of course, this is still no proof.

Fritz



You are probably remembering Closterman's encounter. His wingman fired on it but it was out of range.

Friendly_flyer
02-01-2006, 02:32 PM
Pilots of the 331 Norwegian squadron with the RAF reported seeing a Do 335 hurling off low over the treetops, but it was to fast fro them and they never got close enough for a shot.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-01-2006, 02:36 PM
Clostermann:

An aircraft became visible at tree-top level, approaching rapidly. A curious one, which I couldn't identify. He only saw us at the last moment, because we were just below the cloud base, in the shadows. He broke very quickly and for a moment I had a full view of him. He was obviosuly a Jerry-he had black crosses on the wings-but what an odd sort of bird!

Throttle open, I tried to cut inside his turn, but he was moving astonishgly fast. Longley was better placed and fired at him, but without effect. The strange aircraft completed his turn and flew off at full speed. He really was an extrordinary looking customer. His tail plane was cruciform, and it looked as if he had not only a normal propeller in front but on top of that a pusher propeller right in the tail, behind the rudder. His front engine was an 'in line,' with a cowling like a DB 603 in the Focke-Wulf TA 152C with a ring-shaped radiator; the other engine was buried in the fuselage, behind the pilot. The two long grey trails in his slipstream showed he was using a supercharger, and the thread of white escaping from his exhausts showed he was using GM-1. I toyed with the idea of bringing my supercharger into action, but even with 3,040 h.p. we wouldn't be able to get him. We were doing nearly 500 m.p.h. and he was easily gaining on us.

I took film of him, on the off-chance that there might be sings of jet-propulsion, but with this wan light the negative would be too under-exposed to show much. Longley kept after him for a bit, but he soon gave up. He fired one burst at extreme range, but the tracer bullets harmlessly bespattered the countryside.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2006, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by berg417448:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:


Maybe not. I seem to remember reading or seeing an interview with a pilot who said he saw one but it was much to fast for him to even bother chasing. Of course, this is still no proof.

Fritz



You are probably remembering Closterman's encounter. His wingman fired on it but it was out of range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don´t think so. The way it was described was that is was flying in the opposite direction and also out of range. If it was the Pfeil, I doubt it was flying combat.

I don´t see why anyone worries about this plane. We got the PY-80 didn´t we? It saw no combat in WW2. Who cares, it´s a free plane. The Pfeil is also free but a heck of a lot more interesting. Besides, I doubt you´ll see it on any servers. The whining will be loud enough to make it banned.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2006, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
Clostermann:

An aircraft became visible at tree-top level, approaching rapidly. A curious one, which I couldn't identify. He only saw us at the last moment, because we were just below the cloud base, in the shadows. He broke very quickly and for a moment I had a full view of him. He was obviosuly a Jerry-he had black crosses on the wings-but what an odd sort of bird!

Throttle open, I tried to cut inside his turn, but he was moving astonishgly fast. Longley was better placed and fired at him, but without effect. The strange aircraft completed his turn and flew off at full speed. He really was an extrordinary looking customer. His tail plane was cruciform, and it looked as if he had not only a normal propeller in front but on top of that a pusher propeller right in the tail, behind the rudder. His front engine was an 'in line,' with a cowling like a DB 603 in the Focke-Wulf TA 152C with a ring-shaped radiator; the other engine was buried in the fuselage, behind the pilot. The two long grey trails in his slipstream showed he was using a supercharger, and the thread of white escaping from his exhausts showed he was using GM-1. I toyed with the idea of bringing my supercharger into action, but even with 3,040 h.p. we wouldn't be able to get him. We were doing nearly 500 m.p.h. and he was easily gaining on us.

I took film of him, on the off-chance that there might be sings of jet-propulsion, but with this wan light the negative would be too under-exposed to show much. Longley kept after him for a bit, but he soon gave up. He fired one burst at extreme range, but the tracer bullets harmlessly bespattered the countryside.

First time I see this account. He was obviously talking about the 335 though.

Fritz

berg417448
02-01-2006, 02:53 PM
I'm not worried about it. I LIKE it! I was actually hoping to find verified reports of its use in combat but I have not found any so far.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2006, 02:55 PM
Too many records were destroyed near the end of the war. I doubt it saw much airtime anyway.

Fritz

Kocur_
02-01-2006, 03:02 PM
Clostermann:
(...)even with 3,040 h.p. we wouldn't be able to get him. We were doing nearly 500 m.p.h. and he was easily gaining on us.


3000PS!? 800kmh!?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

luftluuver
02-01-2006, 03:03 PM
The EA was at tree level, then why was the EA using GM1, for that was a high altitude booster? MW50 was the 'low' booster.

The Do335 had MW50 but no GM1.

Naturally the supercharger was being used, all DB engines had one.

If as Clostermann says he opened throttle, he was already using the supercharger.

Best not to read to much into what Clostermann says.

luftluuver
02-01-2006, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Clostermann:
(...)even with 3,040 h.p. we wouldn't be able to get him. We were doing nearly 500 m.p.h. and he was easily gaining on us.


3000PS!? 800kmh!?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif to much Kocur, the Sabre, under test, produced 4000hp with ADI. With 70.6"Hg and 3850rpm, it produced 3500hp.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2006, 03:14 PM
Sabre´s top speed?

Kocur_
02-01-2006, 03:18 PM
OK for the Sabre, thx http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
Still, running at the deck, IIUC for a longer while, not just righ after shallow dive at nearly 800kmh still makes me go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
02-01-2006, 03:40 PM
A lot of the things in Clostermann's book make you go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif but his book is really made up of his contemporary journals and notes which don't benefit from hindsight or hisotrical revisions. In his book he describes a battle with an all yellow fokewulf and is continually engaging ta 152 C's (obviously D9s). Its a great read though and despite some of the technical innacuracies his descriptions of combat and the role of the Tempest at the end of the war are fascinating.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2006, 03:41 PM
It´s like mixing spray paint. You can stop when you here the ball inside moving freely. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

berg417448
02-01-2006, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
A lot of the things in Clostermann's book make you go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif but his book is really made up of his contemporary journals and notes which don't benefit from hindsight or hisotrical revisions. In his book he describes a battle with an all yellow fokewulf and is continually engaging ta 152 C's (obviously D9s). Its a great read though and despite some of the technical innacuracies his descriptions of combat and the role of the Tempest at the end of the war are fascinating.

I noticed that about the Ta-152s in his book as well and figured they were all long nosed Focke Wulfs.

As far as an all yellow FW...years ago I read somewhere about a unit that allegedly did paint their FW-190's all yellow for a short time. Supposed to be an attempt to make the planes even harder to see when they attacked the bombers out of the sun. Of course...makes it worse when you are not in the sun! Have not thought about that for years until you just posted about it. I'll have to see if I can remember exactly where I read that

luftluuver
02-01-2006, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by 3.JG51_BigBear:
A lot of the things in Clostermann's book make you go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif but his book is really made up of his contemporary journals and notes which don't benefit from hindsight or hisotrical revisions. In his book he describes a battle with an all yellow fokewulf and is continually engaging ta 152 C's (obviously D9s). Its a great read though and despite some of the technical innacuracies his descriptions of combat and the role of the Tempest at the end of the war are fascinating. I still have his book, not the latest version though. Just read what he says with an open mind. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Btw, the yellow Fw was most likely just primar which had a yellow tint.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-01-2006, 03:55 PM
I really like his book, honest. My post was actually meant to explain why his book isnt' the most accurate than it is. I think its one of the best accounts of air combat in Europe that I've ever read.

KG26_Alpha
02-01-2006, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by berg417448:
The operational career of the Do 335 is mostly the subject of rumor. A few Do 335A-0 and A-1 aircraft are rumored to have flown a few operational missions with EK 335 but I've never seen anything that proved this. There is no evidence of it being met in combat. The only sighting I've ever read about is the one that Kurfurst referred to in Closterman's book. So which of the Wnr 24010 to 240123 went to this unit?

Same goes for WNr 230001 to 230014.

The only reference of a Do335, the V3, configured for photo work, going to a LW unit, 1./Aufkl.Gr Ob.d.l, in July 44 for some operational evaluation testing. It is not known if the flight by Lt Wolfgang Ziese ever took place as the a/c was continually u/s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Werk No's
240104 VG+IJ
240105
240106
240107
240108
240109
240110 to Oct 44

luftluuver
02-01-2006, 10:31 PM
WNr 240104 was coded VG+<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">PK</span>.

WNr 240101-110 were all coded VG+P* (* = G,H,I,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q respectively).

KG26_Alpha
02-02-2006, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
WNr 240104 was coded VG+<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">PK</span>.

WNr 240101-110 were all coded VG+P* (* = G,H,I,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q respectively).

Well my info is as this

Table I: Do335V series prototypes (14 aircraft built
at Friedrichshafen, mid-1943 to mid-1944, and tested at Mengen).

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335V-1 CP+UA 230001 1st prototype. DB603A-1 engines. FF 28.10.43
Do335V-2 CP+UB 230002 to Rechlin, rear engine caught fire, w/o 15.04.44
Do335V-3 CP+UC/T9+ZH 230003 A-4 prototype, to Ob.d.L.
Do335V-4 CP+UD 230004 Do435 prototype, not completed
Do335V-5 CP+UE 230005 1st with armament fitted, A-2 engines
Do335V-6 CP+UF 230006 Dornier development a/c, hit by bomb
Do335V-7 CP+UG 230007 Junkers Jumo 213A & E testbed, Dessau
Do335V-8 CP+UH 230008 Daimler-Benz DB603E-1 testbed, Stuttgart
Do335V-9 CP+UI/V9 230009 A-0 prototype, to Rechlin May 1944
Do335V-10 CP+UK 230010 A-6 prototype night fighter with SN-2 radar
Do335V-11 CP+UL/11 230011 A-10 prototype trainer
Do335V-12 CP+UM 230012 A-12 prototype trainer
Do335V-13 RP+UA/13 230013 B-1 prototype, to France for tests
Do335V-14 RP+UB/14 230014 B-2 prototype, destroyed

Table II: Do335A-0 preproduction batch (10 aircraft built at
Oberpfaffenhofen July-October 1944. One example converted to A-4 standard.

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335A-0 VG+PG/101 240101 DB603A-2 engines, at Rechlin July 1944
Do335A-0 VG+PH/102 240102 sole survivor, to USAAF as FE 1012, now at NASM
Do335A-0 VG+PI/103 240103 to Ob.d.L. late July 1944
Do335A-0 VG+IJ/104 240104 to Erkdo 335 Sept 1944
Do335A-0 VG+IK/105 240105 to Erkdo 335 captured by US at Lechfeld April 1945
Do335A-0 VG+PL/106 240106 to Erkdo 335
Do335A-0 VG+PM/107 240107 to Erkdo 335
Do335A-0 VG+PN/108 240108 to Erkdo 335
Do335A-0 VG+PO/109 240109 to Erkdo 335
Do335A-0 VG+PP/110 240110 to Erkdo 335 October 1944

Table III: Do335A-1 production batch (11 aircraft built at Oberpfaffenhofen,
plus 9 aircraft partially assembled, November €" April 1945).

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335A-1 113 240113 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240161 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240162 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240163 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240164 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240165 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240166 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240167 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240168 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240169 Captured by US
Do335A-1 €" 240170 Captured by US
Do335A-1 01 240301 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 02 240302 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 03 240303 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 04 240304 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 05 240305 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 06 240306 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 07 240307 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 08 240308 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-1 09 240309 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-2 €" €" Project only
Do335A-3 €" €" Project only

Table IV: Do335A-4 (10 aircraft scheduled January €" February 1945;
only four partially assembled at Oberpfaffenhofen).

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335A-4 10 240310 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-4 11 240311 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-4 12 240312 Partly assembled; captured by US
Do335A-4 13 240313 Partly assembled; captured by US

Do335A-6: none assembled, Heinkel Vienna factory bombed out.

Table V: Do335A-10 (aircraft built at Oberpfaffenhofen).

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335A-10 111 240111 Flew late Nov 1944; captured by US at Oberpf.
Do335A-10 €" 240114 Not completed

Table VI: Do335A-12 (two aircraft built at Oberpfaffenhofen,
plus 2 aircraft partially assembled).

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335A-12 112 240112 Air Ministry 225, to RAE, w/o 18 Jan 1946
Do335A-12 121 240121 to England, w/o 13 Dec 1945
Do335A-12 122 240122 Not completed, scrapped by US
Do335A-12 €" €" Partly assembled

Table VII: Do335B series prototypes. (six aircraft partially
assembled at Oberpfaffenhofen).

Model Code Werk Nr. Notes
Do335B-2 RP+UB 14/18 240118 B-2 replacement proto, to France with CEV until 4.6.48
Do335V-15 RP+UC 15/19 240119 B-1 2nd prototype to Lwe February 1945
Do335V-16 RP+UD 16/20 240120 B-2 2nd prototype night fighter with FuG 218
Do335V-17 RP+UE 17/16 240116 B-6 prototype to France Autumn 1945
Do335V-18 RP+UF 18/17 240117 B-6 2nd prototype night fighter to Lwe February 1945
Do335V-19 RP+UG 19/15 240115 B-3 prototype; not completed
Do335V-20 €" €" B-7 prototype; not completed
Do335V-21 €" €" B-8 prototype; not completed
Do335V-22 €" €" B-8 2nd prototype; not completed

KG26_Alpha
02-03-2006, 10:23 PM
shameless bump

luftluuver
02-04-2006, 05:22 AM
I posted this in ORR but will do it here as well. I got off the web but is originaly from Monarch's 335 book written by well respected authors (Smith, Creek, Hitchcock).

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1114844/Do335-data02-1.jpg