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VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 03:37 PM
***Edited***
Question answered...thanks guys!


I know that we may want to "lean forward or backwards" in the cockpit but why does the terrain zoom as well? This is not very realistic. After 25 years of real life flying....I have yet to be able to zoom in on anything.

One other game I use to fly in...one could zoom inside the cockpit while the view outside the cockpit remained the same.

What do you guys think? Any other posts about this? Thought Oleg was for realism.

VW-IceFire
03-27-2007, 04:26 PM
Its not a zoom...its a narrowing of the field of view.

Lurch1962
03-27-2007, 05:41 PM
The pilot "lean into the gun sight" view mode, whereby the pilot moves his head forward approximately 15-30cm--and oftentimes in the left/right and up/down plane so as to align his eye on-axis--does not affect image scale for any objects farther than about 3m. As the pilot hunches forward to better frame the reticle in the gun sight's reflector plate, only the cockpit stuff will seem to "zoom in" a bit due to the change in perspective. Outside scenery and other aircraft will remain at exactly the same size as before leaning in. It's like pushing your face closer to you monitor--it'll seem to grow in size due to its nearness, while anything behind it more distant than about 2-3m will change in apparent size little, if at all.

I forget what it's called (I'm at work right now), but there's a different view which might have "gun sight" in its name in the Controls listing, and which zooms your view in to the smallest FOV of 30 degrees. In this case your display zooms in just like a camera's zoom lens, and the FOV narrows down. Across the full FOV range offered in IL-2 (90 degrees down to 30), that's a zoom range of essentially 3X.

Zooming inside the cockpit while the outside view remains the same is the antithesis of realism. A zoom MUST ALWAYS change the image scale of all elements to exactly the same degree, irrespective of distance from the observer.

One must be careful not confuse changes in apparent size due to a change in perspective with optical zooming. They are completely different ways to alter an object's apparent size.

--Lurch--

VMF-214_HaVoK
03-27-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Its not a zoom...its a narrowing of the field of view.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 08:02 PM
ok, maybe I am seeing something else. I will go check.

Thanks

VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 08:24 PM
ok, here is what I have.

Wide View, not set
FOV 85-75, not set
Normal View, not set
FOV 65-35, not set
Gunsight View, U
Toggle View, Joystick Button #2
Increase FOV, not set
Decrease FOV, Not set
Toggle Gunsight, Shift-F1

Toggle View gives me three views, example; zoom in to gunsight very close which also zooms in outside object. Zoom out/back sitting far back from gunsight, looking at same object, I can barely see it. The target itself changes size, thats a zoom in my book. What am I missing? I am not quiet following you guys yet.

Toggle Gunsight gives me the change cockpit view but outside objects remain the same. However, change is very small and mute view.

Want me to post a screen shot for a confirmation on what I am trying to explain? I just want to understand it correctly.

VW-IceFire
03-27-2007, 08:51 PM
The target changes in size in relation to distance and the narrowing of the view. This is whats happening on your monitor. The physical properties of the view are still at the same point in space...but its appearing much larger on the screen because the viewing angle is much lower. At the widest angle everything appears smaller because now the monitor is viewing everything from a much wider angle...so much so that the view is starting to fishbowl just a little bit.

It appears larger (or smaller in the case of wide angle) because its a screen with a fixed width. This is useful to us because there is more information on the screen from a given viewing angle so it "appears larger".

VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 09:06 PM
Sitting in the cockpit with shoulder straps on, I can only move myself, upperbody, forward about 12inches. This does not changes far away objects at all or is not noticeable. At best, it changes close up objects very little. Maybe just enough to be able to read an instrument or some writing on the instrument panel.

I can do the same thing by just simply standing up and looking at an object across the pasture in my front yard....say about the same distance as the object in the screen shots. I take three long steps forward, the object across the pasture appears the same size from that great distance and any change is unnoticeable unlike in the screen shots below. Now I can take my digital camra and zoom in and see it much closer, AS APPEARED, in the screen shots below.

Here are my screen shots. Shots are using Toggle FOV which consist of three positions.(Is Toggle FOV using views Wide, Normal and Gunsight?)

Far back - can you tellwhat I am aiming at?
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/target1.jpg

Medium - ID target yet?
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/target2.jpg

Close up - ID target yet?
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/target3.jpg

gkll
03-27-2007, 09:32 PM
What is being explained about the FOV is exactly right. Note as well that the 'real' view is would be when an object is the same size on the monitor as it would be in RL, eh? This happens to be the most 'zoomed in' view. Somebody worked it out years ago with a 17 monitor and average viewing distance.

The other gunsight toggle (shift f1) is where you move your head forward and towards the gunsight, the effect is different in each plane of course, but regardless it toggles this head shift <without> changing the FOV.

VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 09:47 PM
This is the way it should look...crude example but to the point.

The following screen shot is a gunsight view FOV photoshopped to what it shoyuld look like using the WIDE view distant object.

Wide View
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/target1.jpg
Gunsight View, same object.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/target4.jpg

VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 09:54 PM
try this,

Sit in your chair and extend your arm all the way out in front of you. Now create a circle with your thumb and finger. Now use it as a gunsite and aim at something across the room. Now, without moving your your arm, move you eye right up to it. The gunsight got bigger but the object you were aiming at did not. In reality if you put your nose on the gunsight in your fighter, the distant measuring circles would be inacurate.....obviously.......right? Shall I demonstrate this with a real airplane and a digital camra?

Lurch1962
03-27-2007, 10:06 PM
This is the way it should look...crude example but to the point.

The following screen shot is a gunsight view FOV photoshopped to what it shoyuld look like using the WIDE view distant object.

It should NEVER do that in real life. It would be like magic to so greatly zoom in on the gun sight (and the rest of the cockpit and plane's visible externals), while leaving the outside world completely unaffected as regards image scale.

What you've created here (with manual manipulation in Photoshop) is a view that one might see by practically rubbing eyebrows against the sight ring. In reality the pilot might be unable to comfortably lean in so close to the sight.

I can't see the reason for having such a "magnified" image of the sight while the outside is unchanged.

Lastly, a question. What is supposed to be the view of interior vs exterior when one pans the view over the full range of available angles? Looking out the left side, for instance, is the cockpit framing and wing tip supposed to appear greatly zoomed-in (as for a 30 degree FOV) while the outside world appears at a 90 degree FOV scale?

--Lurch--

VFS-214_Hawk
03-27-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by gkll:
What is being explained about the FOV is exactly right. Note as well that the 'real' view is would be when an object is the same size on the monitor as it would be in RL, eh? This happens to be the most 'zoomed in' view. Somebody worked it out years ago with a 17 monitor and average viewing distance.

The other gunsight toggle (shift f1) is where you move your head forward and towards the gunsight, the effect is different in each plane of course, but regardless it toggles this head shift <without> changing the FOV.

Ok, I think I am beginning to follow you now. So what I understand is that I am still thinking 2D instead of 3D?

LEXX_Luthor
03-28-2007, 02:08 AM
VFS-214_Hawk::
After 25 years of real life flying....
hehe lets explain for you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Zooming is like looking through binoculars (some types of "real life" WW2 pilots flew with them). Zooming in, also called decreasing field of view, allows you to see detail you should see if you have good eyesight but can't see in the game because the whole world in front of you is squashed into a tiny computer monitor.

I like to think of zooming in as a focusing of attention on one thing. You know how when you focus on something, other things are "outside" your attention even if they are in your vision, unless its something big like a bright flash or something that surprises you and distracts your attention focus. By zooming in on a target, or a small hard to read instrument guage on the panel, any object either inside or outside the cockpit, means you are focusing your attention on that one thing, but you sacrifice the wider view around you -- you are not paying attention to things happening beyond your current narrow focus (until you zoom out again).

The problem in this sim is the instant Jump between zoom levels -- or instant changes in field of view -- which makes you lose sight of a tiny barely visible target (or small panel guage) because when you zoom (change field of view) you suddenly, instantly, see a whole new picture that you have to study and re-locate the target on the monitor screen (or find the guage on the monitor screen again). The fix for this is continous or smooth zooming (StrikeFighters has this, although hopelessly slow out-of-box) that fully allows modelling human focus of attention from the vast sky or Earth below, to one tiny target in the distance.

VFS-214_Hawk
03-28-2007, 04:41 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I knew there was a method to this madness. Now I understand. I wish we could do this:
TR Users (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFTRsBcSyk8)

I need to get IR, I have never used one. Maybe that will make these views eisier.


Thanks

VFS-214_Hawk
03-29-2007, 03:52 PM
I have a 17" monitor...it sure looks like the FOV Gunsight View sure looks too close even for real life. When I look at wings, they look way too "zoomed" in.

Made a 3 hour flight in a Maule M7-235 yesterday. Payed a great deal of attention to game realated questions I have. The views in the game still need a lot of work. I just can not play this game in the normal real life view which I understand is the in-close view. Thats crazy! Wish they would just make it one view and leave it at that. With track ir, which I dont have yet, you dont need all these views.

Lurch1962
03-30-2007, 06:03 PM
Hawk,
For whatever distance you sit from your monitor, there will be an apparent angular width and height of the visible area of the screen. Let's say for the sake of argument that it's 40 degrees.

Therefore in order to see the game's view of things at the very same scale as you would see in reality, you'd need to set the FOV to 40 degrees.

Of course that's horribly restrictive! You'd experience the very same "tunnel-vision" effect if you made a box-like "blinder" to wear on your head which restricted you to a 40 degree-wide view of the real world from your real-world plane.

So in our gaming world, in order that we not be so restricted by the limited angular size of the screen we see the game "through", we must compromise by having available a rather wider FOV setting. Without it our situation awareness suffers terribly. In this context, the ability to zoom compensates (and rightly so) for the less-than-real-world size we must display the game in most of the time.

Would you want to *ONLY* be able to see other planes at, say, half size all the time? I myself would sure hate being restricted to just one FOV setting all the time.

--Lurch--

Tully__
03-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Hawk, the Toggle Gunsight view (Shift-F1) does what you're thinking of. The Zoom view (called Gunsight View in later versions of the game) is a field of view setting equivalent to 30 degrees field of view. At something approaching a safe ergonomic viewing position this is roughly how much field of view a monitor occupies and as such is reasonably close to how close things would look in real life.

Unfortunately, flying while looking through a 30degrees wide window is not only hard, it's unrealistic. To compensate for this the developers have included view settings that allow us to cram up to 90 degrees field of view into a much smaller window. This diagram shows at what viewing distances monitors match 30 degree field of view settings and how much extra view is squashed into the monitor at the wider veiw settings.

http://jennirivers.actewagl.net.au/zoomview.jpg

VFS-214_Hawk
03-30-2007, 09:44 PM
Man, thats great info...thanks guys!

lowfighter
03-30-2007, 10:02 PM
So I'm curious what field of view are people using "on average" (most of the time). I've been using the normal FoW most of the time for years. Some weeks ago I started using a decreased FoW between the normal and the minimum FoW (supposed to be the closer to the natural FoW). I'm getting used to it, but I have situation awareness difficulties of course. Don't have TIR either, that would help, I suppose, when using a smaller FoW.
I kind of don't like to switch between different FoWs in flight.

VFS-214_Hawk
03-30-2007, 11:13 PM
I had been using "wide" 100% of the time for two or so years! Danm nose use to bounce too much to get any closer. Now I use Normal, which is the default view when you start, for dogfighting. When I get a bead, I switch to about 40 fov.

I am now trying to set my micro dohickie on the ch throttle to mouse mode.

Tully__
03-31-2007, 01:39 AM
I use wide (90 degree FOV) unless I want a close look at something, then zoom (30 degree). In a given mission I may only hit zoom 3-6 times...

lowfighter
03-31-2007, 03:39 AM
It's interesting: when using wide FoV the AC "looks" more stable when approaching a target than using the narrow FoV. That's pretty normal but I think there's something more about it: if I use the narrow FoV, while seeing this seemingly bigger AC instability I have a STRONGER tendency to correct it, and this might end into an even bigger instability, "pilot induced" I think they called it. Hm, not sure...

VFS-214_Hawk
03-31-2007, 07:48 AM
Originally posted by lowfighter:
It's interesting: when using wide FoV the AC "looks" more stable when approaching a target than using the narrow FoV. That's pretty normal but I think there's something more about it: if I use the narrow FoV, while seeing this seemingly bigger AC instability I have a STRONGER tendency to correct it, and this might end into an even bigger instability, "pilot induced" I think they called it. Hm, not sure...

Thats what my problem was and is really why I started this thread and is why I thought it was a zoom. I figured it doubled the action as it did the view! I just have to remember that its not a real airplane. I wish I had rudder peds with force feedback!