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Scen
12-06-2004, 04:15 PM
One of the beta testers got word from Oleg that there will be no 6DOF support for PF.

Apperently they have been working with him to get permission to make changes but Oleg said no.

I'm not sure as to the reasons but it has something to do with the amount of work envolved.

This blows.

Scendore

BlackR6
12-06-2004, 04:33 PM
No 6DOF for IL2 ...

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002019#000016

Quote:

Hello:

Just to add my $.02.

I think that our position on PF support for full 6DOF is pretty clear, we would love for it to happen, but we can't do anything about it as is Oleg's game and he knows what would be best for it. Oleg also knows how important 6DOF is to flight sims and will be supporting us in BoB.

BUT... 6DOF is still a big step up for PF, just in Pitch and Yaw alone. Remember, it is not that 6DOF doesn't work in PF that is NOT TRUE, it just works on only 2 axis, pitch and yaw. You now have true pitch and yaw, no more having to worry about slouching in your chair, or holding your head still. Also, profiles are now the same amoung all Vector users. This is a big deal and makes the game easier to play and much easier for new users to get used to. We are looking forward to your feedback!

--------------------
Jim
www.naturalpoint.com (http://www.naturalpoint.com)

No601_prangster
12-06-2004, 04:54 PM
Just my two cents but I think this is the right dicision from Oleg. Cockpit in IL2 and PF are generally not true 3D. They are only designed to be view from two positions the normal view and the gunsite view. If you were to move the site position up/down or side to side it would reveal some very ugly gaps and untextured areas.

PriK
12-06-2004, 04:54 PM
Yes, it's true I'm afraid.

Let me clarify that it's not that it can't be done in PF, just that NP has a lot of respect for Oleg and does not want to go against his wishes. Yes, it is harder to implement in PF because of some technical issues that Oleg could remedy rather easily but apparantly he has artistic concerns with the way cockpits will look.

Personally, this is a big disappointment but I respect his decision even if I don't really agree with the reasoning. To me, the benefits of this technology will far outweigh a few graphical glitches.

The good news is that BoB will fully support Vector and it's six degrees of freedom (6DOF) when we see it probably some time in a year or so from now.

I'm disappointed mostly because BoB will be supporting only a limited number of planes and theatres whereas FB/AEP/PF is expansive beyond any combat sim to date and likely for a long time to come. Just think of how cool it would be to just lean a little closer to read a gauge or look behind a control column to be able to see the compass not to mention just shifting your head a bit to the side to keep an eye on that bogey you're turning with.

It's Oleg's game so it's his choice. Maybe if enough people could see how useful this is it might persuade him to offer the compatibility sometime in the near future.

Also, when vector is released it will cost $49.99 and include the clip, trackhat and software license. It's still a great deal considering that it still makes tracking much better and more comfortable in PF.

On release, only CFS3 and MSFS2004 will be supported with a ton of games coming shortly after.

VW-IceFire
12-06-2004, 04:58 PM
If I were Oleg I'd probably make the same choice.

People get all snitty if things don't look or work 100% so if Oleg allowed this then those graphical glitches would show and there'd be a thunderstorm of complaints about cutting corners and somesuch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't have TIR but I hear this 6DOF thing is pretty awesome. Certainly its good to hear that future support will be there! I wouldn't expect it to be a limited planeset thing either....I'm sure we'll be seeing lots of things coming down the pipe after BoB.

Kannaksen_hanu
12-06-2004, 04:59 PM
:-((((((((

Kannaksen_hanu
12-06-2004, 05:02 PM
Remember guys: IF BoB gets ever released!

Oleg told a long time ago that future projects are endagered because of Piracy, so thats why I feel that better now than maybe never (in decent flight sim)

Triple_AA
12-06-2004, 05:06 PM
Very sad news, but hey, what are you going to do.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Scen
12-06-2004, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PriK:
Yes, it's true I'm afraid.

Let me clarify that it's not that it can't be done in PF, just that NP has a lot of respect for Oleg and does not want to go against his wishes. Yes, it is harder to implement in PF because of some technical issues that Oleg could remedy rather easily but apparantly he has artistic concerns with the way cockpits will look.

Personally, this is a big disappointment but I respect his decision even if I don't really agree with the reasoning. To me, the benefits of this technology will far outweigh a few graphical glitches.

The good news is that BoB will fully support Vector and it's six degrees of freedom (6DOF) when we see it probably some time in a year or so from now.

I'm disappointed mostly because BoB will be supporting only a limited number of planes and theatres whereas FB/AEP/PF is expansive beyond any combat sim to date and likely for a long time to come. Just think of how cool it would be to just lean a little closer to read a gauge or look behind a control column to be able to see the compass not to mention just shifting your head a bit to the side to keep an eye on that bogey you're turning with.

It's Oleg's game so it's his choice. Maybe if enough people could see how useful this is it might persuade him to offer the compatibility sometime in the near future.

Also, when vector is released it will cost $49.99 and include the clip, trackhat and software license. It's still a great deal considering that it still makes tracking much better and more comfortable in PF.

On release, only CFS3 and MSFS2004 will be supported with a ton of games coming shortly after. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with you on this one.

raaaid
12-06-2004, 05:37 PM
will wwii online be supported by the 6dof?

Vengeanze
12-06-2004, 05:39 PM
Wow, what a showstopper.
I was getting ready to purchase TrackIR but just 2 axis won't justify the cost (in my eyes and wallet).
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ElAurens
12-06-2004, 05:40 PM
Actually I'm kind of glad. Saves me from having to spend yet more money on FB/AEP/PF.

Scen
12-06-2004, 05:42 PM
Well

I would never go back to using a hat after using the TIR. The TIR in 2d mode still rocks but just hearing about the 6DOF is a hard off.

Call_me_Kanno
12-06-2004, 05:46 PM
$49.99 is a good deal for all that package. I'll still be getting it to use in MSFS2004. Looking forward to using it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Kanno

JRH147
12-06-2004, 05:52 PM
This is so lame - Oleg needs to lighten up and just add the ability to do it. So what if there is some tearing in some of the textures - big freakin' deal.

I love PF and IL2 but this is really ridiculous that he won't add it in there - BoB is a LONG WAY away...but then again he was never going to lower the muzzle flashes (impossible to do) so who knows....

SKULLS_Exec01
12-06-2004, 06:29 PM
S! Yes, this is very sad news!!! I have the 3 pro and was going to order asap.
I hope Oleg changes his mind, I could care less about a few graphic problems on the CP.
And I will probably never buy BOB unless it has the pacific theater as some kind of add on, been fighting in Europe a long time and just got to the pacific and no plans on leaving!!

Oleg please let us have the 6DOF - it will add more then take away!!

BaldieJr
12-06-2004, 06:32 PM
Thank Goodness. Oleg and his crew have already cost me more than I ever wanted to spend on computer junk.

raaaid
12-06-2004, 06:49 PM
myself i dont mind at all about some polygones bugs it would be as flying the real thing with 6dof

somebody could start a poll to check peoples opinion on this

ucanfly
12-06-2004, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
Thank Goodness. Oleg and his crew have already cost me more than I ever wanted to spend on computer junk. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was just thinking the same thing.

The-Good-Guy
12-06-2004, 07:18 PM
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Tully__
12-06-2004, 07:22 PM
I'm in support of Oleg's decision. In addition to the whines about "incomplete cockpits" there'd be more accusations of "TIR cheats" (anyone remember the "Linda Blair" affair? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). In forced 'pit servers the missing textures would allow TIR users to see parts of the sky through cockpit texture holes that aren't visible to pilots not using the 6DOF setup. While disappointing, I think it's a sound decision.

On the plus side, not having to keep your head in just the right place to get the traditional TIR benefits is a huge plus. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Charlie_52ndVFW
12-06-2004, 07:37 PM
MS2004 and CFS3 were not specifically made with 6DOF in it and yet they dont look all that bad. Until it is actually tried, who is to say it will look like dirt? I know all about the 'how the cockpits are made' argument. It makes no difference between giving up before the game starts.

I am just disheartened that there is a total lack of even trying.

But then again, who knows. Maybe the user base asking enough will get him to consider it. That or the multitudes going with CFS3, because 6DOF truly makes it a kick butt game, will convince someone to try.

Shrug.

MattCFII
12-06-2004, 07:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by raaaid:
myself i dont mind at all about some polygones bugs it would be as flying the real thing with 6dof

somebody could start a poll to check peoples opinion on this <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Poll is up. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=2231055942)



And then there's those guys like me that don't fly online and aren't concerned if it's a cheat.

Alexi_Alx_Anova
12-07-2004, 01:46 AM
I agree with Tully. When you fly the 109s in shifted gunsight view and wide view, you can see through the wing root. Imagine holes like that appering all over the place, most likely in rear views.

It's far from an easy fix for Oleg as it means redoing ALL the cockpits. Now how many is that?? AFAIK, cockpits take as much, if not more, work that the external modelling. No minor task.

It will work better with MSFS (aka FS9 aka FS2004) because that was designed from the start to have 6DOF. You can map keys to change your point of view up, down, back, forward, and side to side. In fact, one of the tutorials specifically directs you to lean over the side of your cockpit so you can see the runway. Although not perfect (you can move your view so far back in some of the planes, you're actually outside the plane!), it does mean the cockpits are better designed for this.

Lastly, the increased stability and precision is enough to sell it for me. Heck, I might even reinstall MSFS!

Alexi

Vengeanze
12-07-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alexi_Alx_Anova:
Lastly, the increased stability and precision is enough to sell it for me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not for me.

Tully, u sissy. U ever cared about these cheat discussions?
I would reckon that the Medium Clouds cheat is a far bigger issue than having to lean head in a weird and aching way to see a micromore piece of blue sky.

For me it all comes down to that neither Oleg or we know how much of a problem this is.
Oleg dismiss a small revolution in flightsimming experience without even trying it (according to that prik guy and his beta-tester friend).

Ankanor
12-07-2004, 02:26 AM
Could somebody elaborate on the pitch and yaw degrees of freedom? in plain words, is it up/down, left/right or forward/back? thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Vengeanze
12-07-2004, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
Could somebody elaborate on the pitch and yaw degrees of freedom? in plain words, is it up/down, left/right or forward/back? thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In short: Sit on a stick. In all TrackIR u can move head left/right and up/down.
With 6DOF in PF as things looks now you'll have one more axis - like put ears to shoulders.

The upperbody forward/back/side2side is the one axis Oleg won't allow.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Coffee999
12-07-2004, 05:42 AM
I just think it's a shame 6DOF won't be supported in PF. I've been looking forward to this for sometime, and even upgraded to Tir3pro in preparation. Just a shame :-(

Freycinet
12-07-2004, 05:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
Could somebody elaborate on the pitch and yaw degrees of freedom? in plain words, is it up/down, left/right or forward/back? thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it is those. With 6DOF TIR will no longer misintepret shifting of you point of view (slouching for instance) as turning your head to look up/down, left/right. So you can move more around behind your monitor, but before you actually turn your head, your view won't start turning.

TgD Thunderbolt56
12-07-2004, 05:58 AM
Although I was looking forward to it for PF, This is certainly no "deal-breaker". PF+FB+AEP is the best flight sim ever created IMO...bar none.


I'm gonna get it anyway...so there.

TB

Rook_336
12-07-2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
I'm in support of Oleg's decision. In addition to the whines about "incomplete cockpits" there'd be more accusations of "TIR cheats" ... In forced 'pit servers the missing textures would allow TIR users to see parts of the sky through cockpit texture holes that aren't visible to pilots not using the 6DOF setup. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted this reply in the other thread as well, but here goes....
How about instead of "fixing" every cockpit model in the game we use brains over brawn on this task - and instead of a massive effort to recode every single cockpit in the game, the development team codes a shaped black texture "below" the cockpit when in cockpit mode.

That would prevent any claims of cheating by seeing through supposed tears and be minimal coding effort in contrast to a 200+ cockpit model rebuild. With that issue resolved, I would imagine the users of 6DOF could live with any ugly graphic anomalies that pop up since it would only affect them. Also I imagine some cockpits are far better than others for this technology - I'd like to know an exact % of cockpit models that really would have tearing problems. I side with NaturalPoint on this, I suspect there is some politics going on behind the scenes that's causing the roadblock here.

Regards,

Rook

Hunter82
12-07-2004, 08:24 AM
I'll have em shortly A...few days

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
Although I was looking forward to it for PF, This is certainly no "deal-breaker". PF+FB+AEP is the best flight sim ever created IMO...bar none.


I'm gonna get it anyway...so there.

TB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Miki40
12-07-2004, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackR6:
No 6DOF for IL2 ...

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=114;t=002019#000016

Quote:

Hello:

Just to add my $.02.

I think that our position on PF support for full 6DOF is pretty clear, we would love for it to happen, but we can't do anything about it as is Oleg's game and he knows what would be best for it. Oleg also knows how important 6DOF is to flight sims and will be supporting us in BoB.

BUT... 6DOF is still a big step up for PF, just in Pitch and Yaw alone. Remember, it is not that 6DOF doesn't work in PF that is NOT TRUE, it just works on only 2 axis, pitch and yaw. You now have true pitch and yaw, no more having to worry about slouching in your chair, or holding your head still. Also, profiles are now the same amoung all Vector users. This is a big deal and makes the game easier to play and much easier for new users to get used to. We are looking forward to your feedback!

--------------------
Jim
http://www.naturalpoint.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But is Oleg`s game? Now that we have paid for it, at least some of us, I think that certainly the end user should be listened to and this matter should not be solely Oleg`s call.

Charlie_52ndVFW
12-07-2004, 09:14 AM
You know, I stressed out about the whole thing when I first heard it wasnt going to happen for PF. Most of the beta testers did. But I think I am more collective on the issue now.

I would like to see it done internally just to see how it will actually look. Even if I could not test it myself, I would like to see screenshots showing how it would look. Maybe I am wrong and it really would look like junk.

However, I am highly thankful to NaturalPoint for making the normal 2DOF mode instead of just the 6DOF mode. Every TrackIR Enhanced title will have 2DOF with the Vector Expansion. This drastically increases the view control ability of the TrackIR in PF. So, at least there is one plus to it all!

It also means I will be flying MS2004 and CFS3 a whole lot more until BoB comes out. Kind of a bummer as I fell in love with PF (still dying for the official patch to come out!).

Cant win them all, I guess.

gates123
12-07-2004, 11:21 AM
With the use of the standard TIR unit (I have tir 2) there really is no reason to complain about this not being implemented. I wasnt going to upgrade even if PF did support the 6-way. I have no problem looking around the cockpit bars (i.e. toggle gunsight) and tracking targets for extreme deflection shots. Just having tir is good enough for me.

Scen
12-07-2004, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gates123:
With the use of the standard TIR unit (I have tir 2) there really is no reason to complain about this not being implemented. I wasnt going to upgrade even if PF did support the 6-way. I have no problem looking around the cockpit bars (i.e. toggle gunsight) and tracking targets for extreme deflection shots. Just having tir is good enough for me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay but why not have the option for those that choose to upgrade?

Don't upgrade if you don't want to I say.

Will it really take away from other development efforts? Heck lets say it does. Then charge for the cockpit upgrades. I'd gladly pay for it.

Scendore

Snoop_Baron
12-07-2004, 12:14 PM
I'm disappointed that there will not be full 6DOF support for PF. But I'm happy to get at least the new 2DOF support.

Personally I would be more than willing to put up with some cockpit bugs and accusations of "cheating" to use 6DOF.

It is Oleg's call and I respect his decision, but I do hope he changes his mind sometime in the future. I have the feeling that his team and company is under intense pressure and I can see how he would think twice before investing any additional resources for 6DOF. If I have to wait for BOB I will.

I hope we get 6DOF in Lock-On because I just ordered that sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

s!
Snoop

Aaron_GT
12-07-2004, 02:04 PM
We have issue with people complaining about whether a dial is exactly the right tint of grey - imagine what would happen if you could see entire untextured areas! It would generate such a lot of bug reports for Oleg it could be a nightmare.

I'd like to see the feature, but I am putting my money on it being in BoB not PF. The IL2 engine is near its end of life anyway and the cockpit reworks wouldn't be worth it.

Call_me_Kanno
12-07-2004, 04:13 PM
"But is Oleg`s game? Now that we have paid for it, at least some of us, I think that certainly the end user should be listened to and this matter should not be solely Oleg`s call."

We don't actualy own the the code for the game. That belong's to Mr. Maddox and we have purchased a license to use it by buying the game and accepting the license agreement when we installed it on our PC's. It's up to Mr. Maddox as to what he want's to allow modified.

Kanno