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general_kalle
09-18-2008, 03:03 AM
regarding kill stealing

DKoor
09-18-2008, 05:03 AM
Kill stealing happens online all the time... it's not nice.
And there is a fine line between kill stealing and 'normal' shooting at E/A.

But let me post a pic that Badsight posted to me eons ago;
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o125/DKoor/101/1809200811.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o125/DKoor/smileys/lol.gif

I hope that RoF and SoW will 'build' some kind of better 'scoring' system, so we don't have to worry so much about point *****s.

LovroSL
09-18-2008, 05:37 AM
shared points would be great in SoW

also any plane not being chased by somebody else can be shot (with no shoulder shoot) seems right to me.
Its allways nice to stalk your bomber target, climb alonside it, strafe it until it is nothing more than a burning wreck, only so that some ******* 5000m lower puts a few rounds in it before it hits the ground http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

P.FunkAdelic
09-18-2008, 05:42 AM
Here's my noob perspective.

I die. I died yesterday. I died today. I'll die tomorrow.

OMG I DIDN'T DIE! I peppered one guy with a few rounds and got a partial kill. I shared it. I was pretty thrilled.

I have a hard enough time not getting snuck up on. I'm more than willing to share a kill. As far as I'm concered if we're simming real war to the bets of our abilities then we should be more happy our teammates aren't dead than arguing that he would have crashed eventually.

Actually I just remembered something. Tonight I experienced a perfect example of why kill guarding is dumb and you actually can't know he'd be dead or not a threat.

I was flying a P-38 over a pacific map. I was cruising and approached a battle. Friendly wasted a Jap fighter so that it was flaming and losing altitude. Simple. He's dead.

NOPE! I was flying along side at that moment, assumed he was dead or soon dead. Suddenly the "dead" guy started shooting at me and I had to maneuver to not get peppered. I took a few hits. He crashed no more than 10 seconds later. A guy in a burning airplane nearly downed me less than 10 seconds from his crash.

gorkyporky
09-18-2008, 08:23 AM
If i see a buning aircraft, i dont shoot.
If i see an aircraft without wings or cut in half or something, i dont shoot.
If i see someone chasing someone, i may get into the wingman position, but i dont shoot.

Esentialy, i dont shoot in any situation that i wish someone else wouldnt shoot (be it at me or my target), because i know damn well how it sux to be trying to get home with a flaming aircraft and see your virtual family again.

general_kalle
09-18-2008, 08:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Crimea river http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

nice one.

and thanks for the votes. its interesting how the majority of the current votes goes for the repektable way of fighting.

dirkpit7
09-18-2008, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by LovroSL:
shared points would be great in SoW

Having 'points' in SoW would be a disappointment to me.

Skoshi Tiger
09-18-2008, 08:36 AM
In a sim people are more likely to press on in a suicidal attack even if they are half shot up and burning. If they are sill a threat to your team then they're fair game.

As long as your team wins it's good!

SeaFireLIV
09-18-2008, 08:47 AM
I`m very careful about taking anyone`s bogey. If I`m behind a friendly attacking a bogey I WILL NOT FIRE until that bogey loses the target, looks like the bogey turned the tables on him, or says I can fire (if on comms). I don`t shoulder shoot either.

It is simply common sense judgement. Use that and you shouldn`t have much trouble.

Of course, you get some who will accuse you of kill stealing when you haven`t just because you took down `their` plane.

I remember I saw a friendly taking on a 109 down low. I flew circle overhead watching in case anything went wrong. Gradually, the 109 gained the advantage on the friendly and was on the friendlie`s six. Seeing he needed help, I dived in and shot down the 109. the idiot friendly typed in chat that I`d stolen his kill and when I said I was helping he said he didn`t need help.

He did need help, but he was too stupid and arrogant to admit it and rather berate me than thanking me.

Part of this is also the dogfight Rambo mentality of `me,me,me!` and wanting to score maximum Ace points.

You should never worry about the score, but more about how well your side is doing. I never look at my score- ever. The only time I know about it is if someone else tells me.

JtD
09-18-2008, 09:43 AM
I'd say depends on the situation, but in general an enemy aircraft should be brought down as safely and as quickly as possible.

waffen-79
09-18-2008, 10:08 AM
Don't want your kill be stolen?

BE DEADLIER, BE SURE

triad773
09-18-2008, 10:47 AM
If its a threat, take it out- smoking, flambeed, or whatever- if it's angling for a shot, it's a legit target.

If someone steels your kill, they may have also saved someone's **** too.

But if they are flaming and very obviously going to meet their maker, then I'd say it would be pretty cheesy. But that's just me.

TheFamilyMan
09-18-2008, 11:40 AM
I agree, kill stealing is part of the HL DF server experience so get over it! This one of the lack of discipline things that really irritates me in HL DF servers. If I see a friendly close by engaging a bogie that is also in my range, I'll back off and cover HIS 6 so he can get the job done. How often do I see this behavior from other players? Seldom at best. If I see that I might be engaged, my first thought is to fly towards other friendlies while also trying to turn the tables. Team spirit on HL DF servers anyone? hhmm, what's that...

gorkyporky
09-18-2008, 12:06 PM
kinda offtopic, but how do you check your score?

FoolTrottel
09-18-2008, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by gorkyporky:
kinda offtopic, but how do you check your score?
On line in a dogfight server: Press 'S' for the 'Score Page'. (You can assign any key to it, see in game Controls)
Online in a Coop: Hold on till mission end, score page will be presented then.

Hoatee
09-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Such questions are really relevant only to games like wwii online where you have to score an uncertain number of points before you are allowed to flyaplane in particular.

VonTonar
09-18-2008, 01:48 PM
The only way in my opinion that there is kill stealing, is if you even give a hoot about stats.
Does anyone think kill steeling would be an issue if there were no point? These are probably the same people who disco when I get on their six. (which is rare).

M2C

JtD
09-18-2008, 02:11 PM
I think it's more the people that complain about kill stealing who are keen on stats.

I've seen too many noobs who didn't think of anything wrong when joining a 3vs1 situation, desperately trying to kill the enemy before one of their teammates does. These guys get shot down 5 times for every kill they make and make a kill every hour or so. They almost certainly care little about their score.

Mr_Zooly
09-18-2008, 02:56 PM
to be honest I would rather have one hour of fun and have zero points but hey; thats just me.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Korolov1986
09-18-2008, 03:39 PM
Fly ground attack missions.

Then you won't give a rat's *** about points - you'll have so many that you won't know what to do with them!

crucislancer
09-18-2008, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by JtD:
I think it's more the people that complain about kill stealing who are keen on stats.


That may be true for some, but not for me.

For one, if I cared about stats, I'd be upset quite a bit! I think my shooting has improved over the past 18 months, but I still consider myself a mediocre pilot. I'm usually lucky to get a kill in a couple of hours online, and I get shot down much more then that.

Second, It irks me when I've spend a good deal of time out maneuvering and getting good hits on an opponent, and it's quite obvious that he's not long for the virtual world, only to have someone come from nowhere to finish him off. The point value doesn't concern me, but the value to how I might be improving, and to my sense of sport, is immense.

If I ever see a team mate engaging an opponent, my first instinct is to cover him, not take his kill. He worked for it, it's his. I hope that others think the same for me when I'm engaged in combat, but sometimes it's not the case.

But, to each his own.

ImMoreBetter
09-18-2008, 05:11 PM
In my opinion,

A plane is incapacitated when it can no longer dogfight and has disengaged, or disengaged when it has no obvious chance of making a successful landing.

Shooting an incapacitated plane = bad.

Shooting at an enemy already engaged = circumstantial.

If my ally is losing, I will help.
If my ally is winning, I will fall in as wingman, or engage other enemies that could interfere.
If the fight is in a stalemate, I will engage to turn the tables in favor of my ally. But not necessarily go straight for the kill.

Stingray333
09-18-2008, 05:39 PM
A few times I have been flying online, been shot up pretty badly, but managed to escape and have been limping off to home, 99 times out of 100, if a bandit chases me down, they will go in for the easy kill, even though I am clearly smoking and not up for a fight.

The odd time however, the enemy pilot will zoom by, give me a wave, and fly off. Once, I had an enemy fly over me, canopy-to-canopy ala Top Gun diplomacy, it was awesome.

Now usually when I see a damaged bogey that is clearly heading for home, I usually leave them alone, or go in for a buzz to scare them a little.

The exception of course is large bombers that are clearly smoking, but still heading to the target, or people flying spitfires... they all must go down.

Stingray

stalkervision
09-18-2008, 05:49 PM
I think there should be a specific kill stealing server. That would make for some interesting missions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

stalkervision
09-18-2008, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Stingray333:
A few times I have been flying online, been shot up pretty badly, but managed to escape and have been limping off to home, 99 times out of 100, if a bandit chases me down, they will go in for the easy kill, even though I am clearly smoking and not up for a fight.

The odd time however, the enemy pilot will zoom by, give me a wave, and fly off. Once, I had an enemy fly over me, canopy-to-canopy ala Top Gun diplomacy, it was awesome.

Now usually when I see a damaged bogey that is clearly heading for home, I usually leave them alone, or go in for a buzz to scare them a little.

The exception of course is large bombers that are clearly smoking, but still heading to the target, or people flying spitfires... they all must go down.

Stingray

Fly a p-47 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif aka.. Robert Johnson

WTE_Galway
09-18-2008, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
Fly ground attack missions.

Then you won't give a rat's *** about points - you'll have so many that you won't know what to do with them!

Or take a torpedo and sink the ships on that online map that has boats in the ponds http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
09-18-2008, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by gorkyporky:
If i see a buning aircraft, i dont shoot.
If i see an aircraft without wings or cut in half or something, i dont shoot.
If i see someone chasing someone, i may get into the wingman position, but i dont shoot.

Esentialy, i dont shoot in any situation that i wish someone else wouldnt shoot (be it at me or my target), because i know damn well how it sux to be trying to get home with a flaming aircraft and see your virtual family again.

My take as well.. unless I don't see the shooter.. or unless the burning plane is shooting and there is no one on him.. If I see a shooter on aplane I wou;d rather fly his wing and then perhaps save him from a bounce.. to me that floats my boat better than getting a kill for the sake of a kill.

PhantomKira
09-18-2008, 09:00 PM
I wouldn't shoot if someone else was shooting at it, but I'd stand by, just in case. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the campaign, though, the AI do it to me, so I have zero quams about doing it to them, and I do, with a vengence. They're always getting their silly selves shot down anyway, so what the heck, I'll take the kill if they don't want it!

P.FunkAdelic
09-19-2008, 12:46 AM
Well again to weigh in from an inexperienced perspective, when I see a dogfight I look for a chance to take part. I don't just swoop in on them when a teammate is at the advantage.

I just think of all those stories of wingmen helping to lay traps or be the trap. Maybe this guy will try and zoom climb and I'll take him out when he's low on E and levels out, or if he breaks away I'll come in hard on him and at least possibly corral him back at the significantly more competent ally.

I don't really think about kill stealing. I just think logically about how I can help and also how I can be safe. I know its bad to get in close with my buddy there. So as long as there is little separation between my buddy and the enemy its not safe for me to throw lead at him.

Besides, I'm no threat to anyone's score. I have scored maybe one lone kill and a crap load of halfs.

LovroSL
09-19-2008, 03:39 AM
Originally posted by Stingray333:

The odd time however, the enemy pilot will zoom by, give me a wave, and fly off. Once, I had an enemy fly over me, canopy-to-canopy ala Top Gun diplomacy, it was awesome.

I ussualy do that when I'm out of ammo to some poor stragler to lighten my and his way back to base.
Or the other time I was torturing a bomber with .50 cals up high until I ran out of ammo, so I threw in a barrel roll next to him for artistic impression and left home. He crashed later http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Choctaw111
09-19-2008, 11:13 AM
I had asked the question about bombers a while back, and was told that as long as a bomber has bombs and is still on the way to the target, whether it is damaged, on fire or what have you, the bomber is still fair game.
Let's face it. A great amount of patience is required for this sim. Sometimes you can go up for a sortie and not see anything for an hour. That is a major cause for killstealing in the first place.
If I see two planes going at it and the plane on my side clearly has the upper hand, I will move on. If he doesn't, I will take up a wingman position for my ally. Several times it has happened where I cleared his tail and he thanked me, but there will be times where the one you just saved "didn't need saving", if you know what I mean.

Yambretta
09-21-2008, 04:51 AM
I regard everything that is still flying as a valid target (watched a burning spit take out two zero's yesterday online) and ignore the whingers that half the time are no angels themselves.
However I hate shoulder shooters and I tend to either sit back watching team m8's six or gain height to watch the show.

DKoor
09-21-2008, 07:14 AM
The best course of actions is to wait/watch over the m8 below to finish off bandit. If the battle goes wrong you can always jump in.
Those who do shoulder shooting are usually blatant kill stealers who do not care for rule (to watch the m8 below) above.
I've seen situations in a very popular 'realistic' like servers where three or more FW's have saddled up on smoking Spit.
Comic gold really, and some of those endless MG151 projectiles infesting the combat zone usually land on friendly 190 or 109.
Can't count the number of times when I had to disengage because of either being hit or being near missed by friendly tracers shooting at "my" bandit. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
09-21-2008, 07:38 AM
If you're not on or near his six, you might not get shoulder shooters.
Then again who knows what someone may try?

DKoor
09-21-2008, 07:49 AM
At this point I'm sorry for deleting all those hilarious tracks...
Those were not near his 6, but rather almost overshooting stuff.
That nearhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
After few maneuvers down low, I got to a point of whether I'll destroy him or get destroyed... (outmaneuvered).
When I finally saddled up, got in a position, I got friendly tracer help.
Greathttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

In waste majority of cases probably even a 6 y old can distinguish between stealing someones kill and clean kill.
The opposite (where it is not clear situation) are quite rare.

iRuffy
09-21-2008, 06:02 PM
Never mind online,
I've only just started playing and hence it took me ages to get a kill on an enemy fighter. And when I did get one flaming, a computer controlled wingman came in and put a few more holes in him as he was going into the drink after I overshot.
I never got the kill!!

Personally I haven't played online yet, but I think anything goes. It is meant to be a war simulation not a picnic.

If you are nursing home a smoking plane and a bandit chases you down where were your wingmen?
Blame them, not the easy kill hunter.