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Dr.Trespasser
04-07-2005, 11:13 PM
I've been playing this game almost every day since it was released and am now in a huge realism crisis that making me not want to play. Why, even if I'm playing on 100% realism, am I getting so much tonnage, and shooting down so many aircraft. I just feel really wierd comming back to base with 6-15 ships sunk every patrol. No U-Boat ace did this all the time, I know some of them had their good patrols but not every time. On the aircraft, most U-Boats never shot down an aircraft, if they did it was usually two at max before being sunk themselves. Has anyone figured out what's missing or kaput in this game? Why are our kills not matching up with historical figures?


Five of the things I think cause the "ace syndrome" in this game.

1) Maybe there are more ships simulated on the oceans than there were historically. Dont know about this one, but possibly done to make the game more "fun".

2) The contact reporting system seems to deliver targets into my hands WAY too often, it really needs to be toned down. If this were historical, captains would surely have had more kills. Most ships were probably sighted and engaged not radioed in.

3) We use the deck gun WAY more than it was historically used. Accounts for most of my extra tonnage I think. (mostly due to reason 3). Also as said in other places, the gun seems to be too stable/accurate.

4) We stay out to sea much longer due to no food restrictions.

5) The last is that we do not have any actual fear for our lives and therefore are much more aggresive than in the real world. This ties back to the deck gun issue, most Captains never used their deck gun in fear of spending too much time sitting in one spot making them vunerable to warship/aircraft interception. Also, some captains probably wouldnt engage a target in general due to a dangerous tactical situation.

What do you all think the reasons are that we can get so much more tonnage than historical figures? Are you all happy with the your crazy tonnage or would you like to see things toned down to more realistic levels?

blue_76
04-07-2005, 11:18 PM
I agree. in real life, finding a ship was much more difficult. the sim has increased the chance of finding a ship for the fun value. only time i find it more realistic is at the early stages of the war between '39 and '41.

Dr.Trespasser
04-07-2005, 11:25 PM
Yea, the early war seems ok, but later it becomes strange seeing ships scooting around. I hope some of these issues might be worked on because it really gets tiring going to 512X then 1 min later getting a radio contact thats 20km away chasing it, finding its a coastal merchant, sinking it with the DG. Wash rinse repeat. I wish you had to sail around and maybe get a contact here or there but leave it to my Watch Crew to deliver the goods most of the time, I can understand convoys though, they were usually tracked and reported on the radio.

Charlie901
04-07-2005, 11:30 PM
See my recent post about adding a timer before being able to immediately jump on an operable Deck/Flack gun.

This would definately add to the tension and danger of staying surfaced and vulnerable, long enough, to risk manning the guns or diving for safety.

reumatiib
04-07-2005, 11:31 PM
Well, for one the depth charges are a bit weak, and the DDs don't stay around long enough either. You could try SH2 - in that game the DDs will hound you for 8 NM, and in some cases I had to endure 3 hours solid of depth charges - and those charges had kick. But actually SH3 is a bit more difficult as identifying merchants than most games. In a storm and in the rain I have to crawl right up to the deck railing to get a look at the flag...(well, at least to within 200 yards +/-). I shot up a convoy in a heavy storm at night and ended up spending the next three hours trying to hunt down all the ships I had damaged but not sunk.

I like it.

The truth is, even though the torpedo shooting in SH3 is harder than many sub games, it is still likely too easy compared to the real war.

Dr.Trespasser
04-07-2005, 11:33 PM
I have SH2, it was actually pretty fun the first time through, but now I have SH3 and want it to be the best subsim shiznit it can be.

Pentallion
04-08-2005, 02:17 AM
I've been looking into this as well. What I've found is that in the campaign, almost every ships SpawnProbability (SP) is set at 90 or 100%.

By simply reducing the lone merchants SP to 20 we'd be rid of almost 1/5th the ships on the map. I hope the Devs add on a Ship Density option to the realism settings because it would take forever to go through the hundreds of ships in the Campaign.RND.mis folder and change them all to 20%.

Either that or a modder makes a nice little utility that does it for us.

RocketDog
04-08-2005, 04:53 AM
There is a very useful thread on reducing the encounter frequency here:

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=32405&sid=29b6377b32bb400f0b2f2d14e38526f8

There are some config settings that can be editted to greatly reduce the "wandering monster" contacts.

This could go a long way to reducing encounters and thus tonnages to historical levels.

Regards,

RocketDog.

dmm_u333
04-08-2005, 04:59 AM
want MORE realism, try this....

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Place icecubes down the back of your shirt every ten minutes
<LI>throw a bucket over yourself every 20 seconds or get someone to do this for you
<LI>play all day, every day for 2 months with 2 hours of sleep per 'shift'. only sleep in a semi sleep - you need to stay alert for unusual sounds at all times!
<LI>only eat canned food
<LI>only wash in salt water and with salt soap
<LI>never change your clothes
<LI>grow beard
<LI>http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
[/list]

Otto-Kretschmer
04-08-2005, 05:07 AM
I think that you´r simply an excellent player. Its probably very uncommon ammong players to sink 6-15 ships every patrol so this have to stand for yourself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. From what harbour do you start?

Cheers/ Kristofer


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Trespasser:
I've been playing this game almost every day since it was released and am now in a huge realism crisis that making me not want to play. Why, even if I'm playing on 100% realism, am I getting so much tonnage, and shooting down so many aircraft. I just feel really wierd comming back to base with 6-15 ships sunk every patrol. No U-Boat ace did this all the time, I know some of them had their good patrols but not every time. On the aircraft, most U-Boats never shot down an aircraft, if they did it was usually two at max before being sunk themselves. Has anyone figured out what's missing or kaput in this game? Why are our kills not matching up with historical figures?


Five of the things I think cause the "ace syndrome" in this game.

1) Maybe there are more ships simulated on the oceans than there were historically. Dont know about this one, but possibly done to make the game more "fun".

2) The contact reporting system seems to deliver targets into my hands WAY too often, it really needs to be toned down. If this were historical, captains would surely have had more kills. Most ships were probably sighted and engaged not radioed in.

3) We use the deck gun WAY more than it was historically used. Accounts for most of my extra tonnage I think. (mostly due to reason 3). Also as said in other places, the gun seems to be too stable/accurate.

4) We stay out to sea much longer due to no food restrictions.

5) The last is that we do not have any actual fear for our lives and therefore are much more aggresive than in the real world. This ties back to the deck gun issue, most Captains never used their deck gun in fear of spending too much time sitting in one spot making them vunerable to warship/aircraft interception. Also, some captains probably wouldnt engage a target in general due to a dangerous tactical situation.

What do you all think the reasons are that we can get so much more tonnage than historical figures? Are you all happy with the your crazy tonnage or would you like to see things toned down to more realistic levels? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dominicrigg
04-08-2005, 06:06 AM
I said this in another thread, the thing making the game unrealistic is not torpedoes or the deck gun or anything like that. In fact they are very well done.

Its the single contacts which show up on your map. U-Boats didnt get told of lone contacts because they had to find them, if a uboat found one it would sink it. They were told of convoys which are at a good frequency in game.

I too was getting very high tonnage per patrol, about the equal of what the best captains did on their best patrols. What were the highest percentage of my kills? Lone ships.

If you stop going to the single contacts which show up, or switch them off (someone has found a way) you will get VERY realistic patrols, but warning, they will not be as exciting.

Since i started doing it two patrols ago i have got 2 merchants the first patrol, and 1 in the second off Norway. When your chances of finding a lone merchent are via running into them (as in real life) your usage of the deck gun drops off to realistic amounts of near zero. Its not possible to use the deck gun in convoy battles.

Try it and you will see, i hope this helps!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


My torpedoe stores after my last mission to Norway.
http://img68.exs.cx/img68/7871/finalloadout0xp.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

reumatiib
04-08-2005, 07:18 AM
Dominicrigg is correct for the Atlantic in the early war. However the German Luftwaffe did have planes all over the North Sea and Baltic that were making contacts with shipping and reporting them. That info was then sent by BdU to the U-Boats.

In SH2 the Radio was continually chattering with "New Contact Made" and it all made some sense. But in SH3 the radio never speaks, instead contacts just seem to appear mysteriously!!!

I am not sure why people here think that the map levels are different between Sh2 and Sh3 - when I look at their actual built in text data they look almost the same! Both use triggers, random appearing units, timed appearing units, waypoints and so forth. Both are not REAL worlds but are scripted scenarios. If I have to I'll post examples of both here and you will see they are the same.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blue_76:
I agree. in real life, finding a ship was much more difficult. the sim has increased the chance of finding a ship for the fun value.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, sometimes I wish they wouldn't try to increase the 'fun value' in a simulation. I never get much fun out of a lack of realism. I buy simulations for a realistic experience - that's fun for me, and when they water it down by making it 'more fun', I get pi$$ed off.

chumpion69
04-08-2005, 09:45 AM
the time compression makes this game seem a lot easier too IMO. That being said, dont use the time compression feature as much and it should make the game more realistic.

alanschu
04-08-2005, 11:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yeah, sometimes I wish they wouldn't try to increase the 'fun value' in a simulation. I never get much fun out of a lack of realism. I buy simulations for a realistic experience - that's fun for me, and when they water it down by making it 'more fun', I get pi$$ed off. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately I'm sure the developer would like to actually sell copies of the game in order to make some money on the project.


Do you disable time compression too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

PsychoFritz
04-08-2005, 11:58 AM
Maybe...you know since this is just a game and not real life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...we could use the tonage values that each of us gets to make a SH3 "historical" record of sinkings? Just a thought...kind of a way to go with it and still have fun in the game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Although I have been kind of disapointed that I'm already at the top of the aces list after 12 patrols.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alanschu:
Unfortunately I'm sure the developer would like to actually sell copies of the game in order to make some money on the project. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simulation gamers (the people who buy simulation games) like realism. Developers are simply alienating their core customer base if they go for arcade features.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you disable time compression too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time compression is not unrealistic. It's realistic because time passes at 1 to 1 rate for all parts of the sim. There is no cheating, and no unrealism in using time compress.

Guidon666
04-08-2005, 03:12 PM
So you would buy a sub game that through an entire campaign... you may sink only 3-4 ships?

I find it hard to believe and you can bet they wouldnt sell 1/2 of what they have sold. I consider myself a pretty decent sim person (Not a sim nazi but like realism over cheese any day). But i can tell you if I saw a review on this game that mentioned you can sail the oceans and not see anything... I'd of passed on this game as many others would have too.

And time compression is not a cheat. I agree. But it is unrealistic. the crews of the subs didnt get to speed things up faster and finish a mission in one night. But that said... if the game didnt have time compression - i wouldnt have bought it either.

marauderiv
04-08-2005, 03:14 PM
To me, the single biggest unrealism in SH3 is sticking strictly to historic timeline. Com'n, no one in 1939 knew war would end in 1945 and better ASW tactics would appear in 1942 and onward. But when we the players started career in 1939 we all knew the outcome, that's not realism to me. This also causes the game to become very boring in the long run. It would be nice if campaign can become truely dynamic, i.e. more effective ASW tactic and hunter-killer groups appeared much sooner than historic timeline when players accumulate too many tonnages too fast. And radio communications can become a lot more interesting if war in other theaters can proceed differently and randomly (like war with Russian ended in 1943) with each different game career. That will make us wanting to listen to radio news while traveling on the boring sea. IMHO, the biggest fun killer of this game is it's way too predicable. Real sub captains were out to sea to win war for their countries, not to gain personal glory (renown?) or petty medals.

ChaytonWarrior
04-08-2005, 03:17 PM
"am I getting so much tonnage"

I think that problem lays in not having too many transports, but rather in having too less friendly submarines. In real they hunted in packs, and so tonnage was divided. In a convoy not one guy got 7 kills, but rather 5 guys got 1 if they were lucky. So gaining tonnage in real was i guess very hard, not because of too less targets, but simple too many "allies" with who you had to share with. While in the game you are on your own, and all tonnage you recieve.

I find it funny that at simulation people always ask after more realismus but what they image of being realistic. For example that Microsoft Flight Simulator, where so many say that its a realistic flight simulator. Yeah realistic for wanna be pilots, hit one button and the engines are running. *laughs*
I guess people would complain about too much realismus, if we would be patroling for months and not finding 1 ship.

"Time compression is not unrealistic. It's realistic because time passes at 1 to 1 rate for all parts of the sim. There is no cheating, and no unrealism in using time compress."

Thats not quiet true, i think above 64 the crews fatigue kicks out, and you can travel around 2 or 3 days without having to change anything at the crew. So its "cheating" and unrealism.

Dominicrigg
04-08-2005, 04:29 PM
past 64 time realism the crew manage themselves. Sleeping and swapping shifts, so with a little imagination time compression still is realistic, and you get to have a real life also http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But all said and done there should be an option to make the single contacts go. As since its a simulator which claims (and is) to be very realistic but also caters to fun gamers. Then options are a good thing for both crowds. I for one would play on both settings. Full on shipathon when i want lots of action, and a "real" carreer when i want to compare my skills to real life captians (And yes i know its not the same, but is as near as we will get on a 500 home computer without icy water...)

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guidon666:
So you would buy a sub game that through an entire campaign... you may sink only 3-4 ships? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would I have to? Real sub commanders sank 20+ ships. If a sub game only allowed you to sink 3 or 4 ships, that would be just as unrealistic as allowing players to sink 60.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And time compression is not a cheat. I agree. But it is unrealistic. the crews of the subs didnt get to speed things up faster and finish a mission in one night. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But that's not happening with time compression. The crews are still experiencing time at normal speed - they eat, sleep, and do their jobs at a normal pace. There's nothing unrealistic about it at all.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by marauderiv:
...when we the players started career in 1939 we all knew the outcome, that's not realism to me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you're not really given the option to let the crew know that. They have no idea about what's going to happen in their future, so they behave as a real crew would.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChaytonWarrior:
I guess people would complain about too much realismus, if we would be patroling for months and not finding 1 ship. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the reality is that the top commanders usually got at least one ship per patrol, so it's not realistic not to get anything after months of searching. Remember, these games simulate the aces, not the worst commanders. They are supposed to be tuned to give you ace abilities.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i think above 64 the crews fatigue kicks out, and you can travel around 2 or 3 days without having to change anything at the crew. So its "cheating" and unrealism. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The crew is assumed to be taking care of themselves at high time compress. Sure, it's not a great solution, but it's hardly evidence that time compress allows the crew to cheat. Heck, I'd prefer it if they had a proper rest schedule. This 'cheat' makes the game HARDER than reality because you're stuck with a fatigued crew when that wouldn't happen in reality.

Guidon666
04-08-2005, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beeryus:
But that's not happening with time compression. The crews are still experiencing time at normal speed - they eat, sleep, and do their jobs at a normal pace. There's nothing unrealistic about it at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


But you are not experienceing "real time". Which would be unrealistic.

It's just my point of view. I know some wnat more of something less of others and the other way around.

People have been complaining about he over use of deck guns aqs being unrealistic, yet I dont see the game developers putting a pistol to their head foricing them to sink all the ships with deck guns.

A single Uboat commander sinking 20+ ships? I missed that one somewhere and know less than I thought I did about the subject (Never stating to be a subject matter expert in the 1st place, I simply thought it was less) BUT if the game mimicked this and you only sank 20 ships across the span of 6 years... the game would suck! realistic or not it would rate a very boring game to many people. (Again... my opinion)

A previos statement of the devs loosing their player base because of choosing fun over realism... I wonder how that translated to more people buying it because it was fun as opposed to superrealistic. (Much like Apache Longbow II of a long time ago... the sim was so realistic that it failed as the game was harder than flying the real aircraft with all the required key commands)

People complain about using manual-VS- weap off targeting as a measure of realism. I seriously doubt the captain di ALL of it by himself, otherwise why have the position of weapons officer.

None of my prior comments were directed at your statment out of anger or dislike.

I Understand that it might have been nicer to have some of these things implemented in the game, but many who want them seem to want them in lieu of what it allready there as opposed to adding them in for the hard core gammer. As an option to amke things more difficult would be nice, but making it this way as the default with out giving the player the chance to "dumb it down" a bit for their playing level would have been equally foolish in the developers pocket book.

Been a long day and I am ranting... so I will stop here.

Popey109
04-08-2005, 05:03 PM
It would be nice if you only got contact report IF there€s a friendly in the area, plan, ship, or sub! Other wise where did this report come from?...it could be Allied trap!!! Also why don€t all of you just turn off updates? It€s and option in the difficulty menu€¦I complete my patrol orders than if fuel and weapons permit, I set course for what I think would be a high traffic area. I admit I haven€t found a convoy yet€¦but boy! Won€t I be surprised when I do? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif And speaking of traps€¦I€d like too see some Destroyers tooling around at 6 nts (fishing so to speak) and decoys mixed in with convoys, O! I forgot, if you turn off update you don€t get any icons! Friend or foe. You€d better check that flag m8 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Dr.Trespasser
04-08-2005, 05:12 PM
I think if I found a way to tone down single ship contacts I would be really happy with the resulting tonnage. This would cut down on the annoying feeling of "Oh, I got a contact 20km away and now I must destroy it". It almost becomes a chore chasing those contacts down. Its really hard for me to ignore these and just sail on, Im a U-Boat Captain, I must take advantage of every oportunity for destruction.

Does anyone know where in the config you can mess with contact reporting?

* Just saw your Reply and link Rocketdog, will try it out.

marauderiv
04-08-2005, 05:14 PM
Yes sub crews don't know, but we as captains with our actions show. With this game so set on historic timeline, we players are simply trying to sink as many tonnage as we can before '43, knowing that we can do little than staying alive til '45. That doesn't sound quite right for a sim wanting to be ultra-realistic. Because many sub commanders tried to turn the tide even to the end. But I guess these random elements cannot be modded and need to wait for an major add-on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guidon666:
But you are not experienceing "real time". Which would be unrealistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's true. But it's only unrealistic if you consider yourself part of the crew. I don't consider myself to 'be' the captain. I merely control his actions at certain points. He sleeps in his bunk in the sub, just like all the other guys, and he's similarly unaffected by the time compress.

Pr0metheus 1962
04-08-2005, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr.Trespasser:
I think if I found a way to tone down single ship contacts I would be really happy with the resulting tonnage... Does anyone know where in the config you can mess with contact reporting?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go into your main Silent Hunter III folder, then open data, then Cfg, then use wordpad to open contacts.cfg. Then just change "Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts" so that it reads "Display Range To Opportunity Radio Contacts=1"

Voila! No more unrealistic 'opportunity' contact messages. Tonnage immediately goes down to realistic (historical) levels, and all's right with the world (except for the deck gun being 'uber', but that's another story..