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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:55 PM
eleven minutes of combat time over the target and then run out of fuel. Or when their spiffy 110s get smacked out of the sky. Then again, given how ineffective the .303s in game are now, maybe the Nazis will win this time on damage models alone.

I personally think the BoB, if it is only the BoB 1940-41, is a mistake. The med/north africa/italy would have been more internationally flavored and offered more varied missions than radar vectored intercepts of over-extended enemy aircraft.

The only way I will buy BoB is if it evolves into a general western European airwar extending from 1939-40 to 1945.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:55 PM
eleven minutes of combat time over the target and then run out of fuel. Or when their spiffy 110s get smacked out of the sky. Then again, given how ineffective the .303s in game are now, maybe the Nazis will win this time on damage models alone.

I personally think the BoB, if it is only the BoB 1940-41, is a mistake. The med/north africa/italy would have been more internationally flavored and offered more varied missions than radar vectored intercepts of over-extended enemy aircraft.

The only way I will buy BoB is if it evolves into a general western European airwar extending from 1939-40 to 1945.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 05:58 PM
i woulda prefered med, as theres another game doing bob isnt there :\

Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 06:10 PM
I hope it's not just 40-41.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:24 PM
Buzz, that is my biggest fear, and I think it is a reality. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Actually it may just be 1940.

I will still buy it though, it should be awesome. I am just worried it will get boring fast.

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Message Edited on 10/06/0307:24PM by kyrule2

Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 08:28 PM
If it was truely BOB, then it would be just the early years. Lets hope Oleg is smarter than that, and gives us the whole war.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:32 PM
1940-1941 would probebly be a mistake. It is so limited that it gets boring very fast. And on top of that it isn't one of the more interesting parts of the war in my oppinion. Which is why I never bought Rowan's Battle of Britain.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:35 PM
Just to add to my point. I am not being selfish or whining, I just think that only having the sim cover the conflict in 1940 would be a poor marketing/financial decision for 1C/Maddox. Like I said, either way it will be incredible and I will definitely be buying it.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:39 PM
Jesus wept, can we at lest wait until the game is developed, not to mention released before we begin to whine about it?

There are more than enough scenarios in the BoB to create a well rounded simulation. As far as Lwhiners go, they should be satisfied that in '40 there planes were superior in number and at least equal in performance to anything going.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 08:41 PM
Also, if you think about it, the whines, which I agree with, about the simplicity of BoB alone as a flight sim are exactly what you want if you are developing the *first* experiment in a long line of WW2 flight sims. The first experiment should be the simplest and smallest.

If that is the case I dunno. Talk to BADER.

Especially for the whines about Fb109 range, don't forget the combat over the Channel against Brit shipping. Oh, and think of the framerates over the sea. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 08:44 PM
If your going to fly German. You have some boring flights to look forward too. I'll just wait in my Spit for you to show up../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:05 PM
Georgeo, from my end I made it pretty clear that I am not whining. This is just a concern, look at it as a question, not a whine. I think alot of people share this concern, but then again maybe I am wrong. Personally I think this is a pretty big issue, especially where the success of the sim is concerned so I see no harm in posting this. I agree it is a little early to ask questions, I just thought maybe someone knew the answer and could clarify.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:08 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- If your going to fly German. You have some boring
- flights to look forward too. I'll just wait in my
- Spit for you to show up../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I enjoy long boring flights, especially in slow birds like the He-111. But I still think 1940-41 is a little too limited.

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:09 PM
The scale of BoB Its not that big an issue ~if~ after BoB comes out, the next sim Med or Pacific comes out within 6-12 months. If this is the kind of deal they are planning on, it could work. Talk to BADER.

....if If IF If if....

Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 09:15 PM
MD,
I like long flights too, but not every time. It will be nice to take off, and get some quick action.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:19 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Georgeo, from my end I made it pretty clear that I
- am not whining.

My post was in regard to to the thread in general, not a response to your post.

When I heard the next Sim was going to be BoB, I thought it was a great idea. I know it's been done before, but not by 1C.



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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:25 PM
Buzz_25th wrote:
- MD,
- I like long flights too, but not every time. It
- will be nice to take off, and get some quick action.

ok, I'll just own your spit in my Bf-110. For you every flight will be short /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

Message Edited on 10/06/0303:26PM by Maj_Death

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:25 PM
A finer focus on a specific time period and a smaller set of planes could be good if FMs and DMs of the planes are more complex and better tested.

FB has lots of planes spanning the entire war, but every plane has bugs either in the FM, DM or 3D mesh. I'd love it if the next sim is complete and polished, even if on a smaller scale.

XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:29 PM
NavyFlyer wrote:
given how
- ineffective the .303s in game are now, maybe the
- Nazis will win this time on damage models alone.

BoB from Maddox games and UBI has been officially anounced.
Let the whining begin then/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 09:29 PM
MD,

OK, you can chew me up, but watch out for my wingman. If he gets you, then you have that loooooooong flight back../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:35 PM
Given that Oleg spent a lot of time showing off such ground vehicles such as Matilda tank, Bren carrier, Kubelwagen, and a Czech tank, I think it is unlikely that the BoB game will be restricted to Summer 1940. Maybe it will in the intitial release. If so I don't think it will be for very long. Oleg is playing a very long term game. Is this not a Good Thing?

Its very early days. Oleg himself doesn't know exactly what's going to be in or out. My hunch is he's going to include the battle of France for some exciting Blitzkreig and ground attack - but who knows.

Anyway, thankfully we can look forward to over a year of panic, froth, rumour, wild speculation, vicious complaint, tears, spats, sound and fury, without the tiresome business of having to actually assess an existing product.

Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 09:38 PM
Mikey,

That's what we do best here../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 09:46 PM
Well, my hopes have been dashed. This is no better then cfs back and forth.
Why can't they just sit down and make one WWII sim with all the countries involved in it. They say BOB will be an expansion to il-2 that will easy just that area. But can't they just keep doing an add on for each army and be done with it.
Then you fly for which ever army on which ever side of the globe you want. I for one like Europe and the Pacific so i would love to keep it in one game then having games for each area of combat.
This is as bad as cfs Europe then the Pacific now back to Europe guess we know where 4 will be.

Who knows maybe one day.

PlatinumDragon...

Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 09:50 PM
The new BOB game coming in 2005 will have a new engine. Not compatable with any previous game. Who knows what it will expand too? Let's not be negative about it.

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 10:43 PM
I am not trying to be negative about it, I know it will be great. Oleg plans to expand to almost every area of combat after BoB is released from what I understand. That is awesome but man that is a big task to tackle. Hope they can pull it off. I fully support the "less planes, more detail" concept. No matter what I can't wait to see the progress of the next sim.

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Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 10:47 PM
I was talking to dragon you knucklehead.

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25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 10:58 PM
I just fail to see how any of you can say it will be 'boring' and how all of the speculation about it being bad/boring can be said.

Firstly, the game isn't even out yet, neither you or I know what is going to be in it other than what glimpses Oleg gave us yesterday:

a. It will be 'The Battle of Britain'.
b. Being very accurate in every way you can think of.(100's of percent were mentioned).
c. Having London fully modelled.
d. Having outstanding detailed high-polygon count ground units, to me this looks like the possible inclusion of controllable ground units. Why go to all of the trouble to have vehicles with opening doors, bonnets and boots? (I _think_ Oleg said something about controlling vehicles but I never caught it and don't quote me on it). If this is the case, to me it points toward the holy grail of a battlefield simulator in the making. This would also explain the choice of the theatre given that it is relatively containable, all of this is, of course, speculation on my part - nice thought tho.
e. Having huge amounts of aircraft in the sky.
f. Having something special re: multiplayer, he wouldn't elaborate (just grinned)
g. Having Radar modelled for both sides.
h. Somehow making the Royal Observer Corps have an influence.
i. Having a graphics/physics engine that will be scalable for upto seven years.

Saying it's going to be boring might actually insult some people, esp. if they were involved in any way. I am from Coventry and I am sure you all know what happened to my home city. For the benefit of those that don't know, the Germans launched operation 'Moonlight Sonatata' - some 400-500 German bombers turned the city into rubble over two moonlit nights in November 1940, bombing the Cathedral - the ruins of which still stand today. It has a special place in my heart and in pretty much the entire British population. I am delighted that it will finally be done justice.

People should be pleased that another sim is being done, BoB is the best one to do for the development of a new engine (scope, varied terrain, weather, huge numbers of aircraft, sellable etc) and it _will_ lead to spinoffs so you might get _your_ boring Med and Africa campaigns afterall!

Matt.



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Buzz_25th
10-06-2003, 11:01 PM
Untie your shorts Matt. It's just a game.

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XyZspineZyX
10-06-2003, 11:05 PM
they are untied Buzz http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just happy that we are getting something new, irrespective of what theatre/scenario it is!



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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 12:20 AM
Jeez...i think everyone's missing the point here.Look at the long term prospects!! My gut feeling is that 1c will produce the most detailed map of Britain ever seen in any flight sim.
If its to be a two sided affair, then a pretty big chunk of the other side of the Channel will also be modelled, so think...England....Western Europe?? The possibilites for that theatre alone are impressive:
Battle of Britain, Battle of France, 8th Air Force campaign, RAF night bomber campaign, RAF Coastal command campaign,Mosquito jail busting, Normandy Invasion....need i go on??
All of these were launched from England, which brings me back to point one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I feel that Battle of Britain is just the start of things to come.


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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 02:12 AM
NavyFlyer wrote:
- eleven minutes of combat time over the target and
- then run out of fuel. Or when their spiffy 110s get
- smacked out of the sky. Then again, given how
- ineffective the .303s in game are now, maybe the
- Nazis will win this time on damage models alone.
-
- I personally think the BoB, if it is only the BoB
- 1940-41, is a mistake. The med/north africa/italy
- would have been more internationally flavored and
- offered more varied missions than radar vectored
- intercepts of over-extended enemy aircraft.
-
- The only way I will buy BoB is if it evolves into a
- general western European airwar extending from
- 1939-40 to 1945.

I agree /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I think the theatre you advise or the Pacific would be far and away better.

I'll just keep doing the 1C:Maddox stuff until something better comes along. I sure as heck will not get excited about something 1+ years away. A lot can happen in a year.

I think the BOB is overdone, with other developers. I've got the Rowan's BOB with the Third party re-worked code from the BOB/MA Developers group. It is much improved by the developers with new graphics and all. It's still not a very exciting theatre to me...It's just OK. The EAW is just OK as well. The lack of a good mission builder is a huge flaw in both, along with the stupid campaign generator thing. The only reason a campaign generator isn't a complete turn-off is because the combat is air combat.

So...I'd say the BOB isn't that exciting with continuous air combat.

I believe, Oleg is goning to need something a lot spicier a year from now. Now, he has a lock on the best WW2 CFS. Competition is always out there and when anyone is making money...the competitors really perk up. There may be another WW2 CFS coming that'll be even more awe inspiring especially with the new 64Bit Processors being introduced. The 64bit is going to make big changes in the gaming and simulations software...I'm thinkin' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The Pacific Theatre would be a big draw, the coral reefs, islands, naval engagements, ground combat and all kinds of combat possibilities. I loved the MSFT CFS2 war theatre, but I hated the stupid AI, and lousy aircraft flight and damage models. The MSFT CFS2 mission builder was an awesome good tool as compared to the IL2-FB misison builder.

I think the Malta, the Med North Africa would be exciting. The aircraft would not be as exciting. They were much slower and less manueverable as compared to the aircraft fighting in the Pacific. The islands, and possibilities for sea and ground combat are certainly there.

Nobody has even come close to doing either really well.

I'll be glad to get the free-add ons. That'll perk me up for a couple months, but like everyone else I'll be buying the LOMAC and keep looking for something better to come along.

--------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 02:19 AM
1940-41 = Initial Game Purchase.

1940-42 = Free Patch With New Planes

1942 and beyond = $$ New Game

Not that I have a problem with that. The first will be a limited sim experience. The second will be some of what users ask for (new planes, bug fixes, etc,). And in 2007 when the last of the three is released it will be a new game. And yes, a new generation of complainers will be born . . . .

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 02:48 AM
Won't be new generation of complainers, will simply be upgraded old complainers like me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

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At the start of WW2 the German army lacked experienced anti-aircraft gunners. The average gunner was so bad that the USSR decided to help them out. They did it by forcing some of their pilots to fly I-153 flak magnets. These planes were slow but very sturdy. This allowed German anti-aircraft gunners to get a large amount of target practice on a relatively small number of planes. Thanks to the Soviets help, by the end of the war the German anti-aircraft gunners were amoung the best in the world.</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 03:41 AM
nearmiss, if I was moving to 64bit, and looking for a small and limited WW2 theater to experiment with, I would choose *BoB* and from that first step I would build my WW2 flight sim oligarchy.

That is assuming what Oleg is doing. If he dropped flight sims and started work on a Stalingrad sim, with dynamic rubble I would be Happy. Infantry don't care about flight models.

The Question is if BoB will have Mission Editor, or "mission builder" for the FB set.

I would love if Oleg will include Battle of France and Poland in the BoB thing. Alot of Polish pilots in BoB too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:08 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- nearmiss, if I was moving to 64bit, and looking for
- a small and limited WW2 theater to experiment with,
- I would choose *BoB* and from that first step I
- would build my WW2 flight sim oligarchy.
-
- That is assuming what Oleg is doing. If he dropped
- flight sims and started work on a Stalingrad sim,
- with dynamic rubble I would be Happy. Infantry don't
- care about flight models.
-
- The Question is if BoB will have Mission Editor, or
- "mission builder" for the FB set.
-
- I would love if Oleg will include Battle of France
- and Poland in the BoB thing. Alot of Polish pilots
- in BoB too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

--------------------------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'd be happy with what we've got now with a good mission builder. Heck, I've spent months building missions just for flying out of four airbases in the Kuban during the spring months of 1942.

It's not more I need to enjoy the IL2-FB..but a better mission builder toolkit. Studying the German/Russian airwar indicates to me that it was a monstrous air war. The lousy mission builder we have makes it extremely difficult to do it justice. Mission building with the FMB is so time consuming and frustrating...just wears you out trying to build interesting, absorbing missions.

When you realize there were thousands of sorties flown frequently on a single day it is hard to imagine why we need a co-zillion war theatres. We need tools to effectively build missions and campaigns to use with the war theatres we have.

It would benefit Oleg to just address the FMB with some excellent logic programming tools and just see what comes out of it. I think he'd be surprised...it would give the IL2-FB a whole new modus operandi...

A good example is ----> If we just had a de-spawn trigger we could eliminate aircraft no longer needed in missions, instantly. It would free up the mission for introduction of other objects and aircraft without a huge FPS hit. As it is now you have to crash or destroy everything you need to get rid of. A real pain, because if your combat takes you over the area where the aircraft you no longer need are plowing into the ground it is darned ridiculous to watch.

I've got a couple hundred arguments for a good mission builder...mostly in completed missions LOL

To be honest...I could care less about the theatre Oleg decides to address. I've said it before. I'll be with IL2-FB until something better comes along.

-------------- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 08:07 AM
my god use some brains. of course the bob is only a couple months long. thats only one type of hurricane spit and 109. do you guys REALLY think oleg will replace FB with a game with only 3 fighters? WAKE UP. hes making a game better than FB not a hundred times worse. this thread once again proves the theory of the lowest common denominator steering the ship. lol, oh yea and so everyone else understands in this thread.....DUH.

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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 08:25 AM
Instead of waiting for more detailed information, lets all wade in with our half-a$$ed opinions instead.


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HelicalPropwash
10-07-2003, 08:29 AM
BoB review, By Winston Churchill (from a speech he made in August 1940)

-----

The great air battle which has been in progress over this island for the last few weeks has recently attained a high intensity. It is too soon to attempt to assign limits either to its scale or to its duration. We must certainly expect that greater efforts will be made by the enemy than any he has so far put forth. Hostile air-fields are still being developed in France and the Low Countries. It is quite plain that Herr Hitler could not admit defeat in his air attack on Great Britain without sustaining more serious injury.

If, after all these boastings and blood-curdling threats and lurid accounts trumpeted around the world of the damage he has inflicted, of the vast numbers of our Air Force he has shot down, so he says, with so little loss to himself, after tales of the panic-stricken British crouched in their holes (laughter) cursing the plutocratic parliament which has led them to such a plight - (laughter),- his whole air onslaught were forced tamely to peter out, the Fuhrer's reputation for veracity of statement might be seriously impugned. (Loud laughter.)

We may be sure, therefore, that he will continue as long as he has the strength to do so and as long as any preoccupations he may have in respect of the Russian Air Force allow him to do so.

On the other hand, the conditions and course of the fighting have so far been favourable to us. I told the House two months ago that whereas in France our fighter aircraft were wont to inflict a loss of two or three to one upon the Germans and in the fighting at Dunkirk, which was a kind of no-man's-land, a loss of about three or four to one, we expect that in an attack on this island we should achieve a larger ratio. This has certainly come true. (Cheers.)

The gratitude of every home in our island, in our Empire, and indeed throughout the world except in the abodes of the guilty goes out to the British airmen who, undaunted by odds, unweakened by their constant challenge and mortal danger, are turning the tide of world war by their prowess and their devotion.

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few. (Prolonged cheers.) All hearts go out to the fighter pilots, whose brilliant actions we see with our own eyes day after day but we must never forget that all the time, night after night, month after month, our bomber squadrons travel far into Germany, find their targets in the darkness by the highest navigational skill, aims their attacks, often under the heaviest fire, often at serious loss, with deliberate, careful precision, and inflict shattering blows upon the whole of the technical and war-making structure of the Nazi power. (Cheers.)

On no part of the Royal Air Force does the weight of the war fall more heavily than on the daylight bombers, who will play an invaluable part in the case of an invasion and whose unflinching zeal it has been necessary in the meantime on numerous occasions to restrain. I have no hesitation in saying that the process of bombing the military industries and communications of Germany and the air bases and storage depots from which we are attacked, which will continue on an ever-increasing scale until the end of the war and may in another year attain dimensions hitherto undreamed of, assure one at least of the most certain, if not the shortest, of all the roads to victory. Even if the Nazi legions stood triumphant on the Black Sea or indeed upon the Caspian, even if Hitler was at the gates of India, it would profit him nothing if at the same time the entire economic and scientific apparatus of German war power lay shattered and pulverised at home. (Cheers.)


http://www.guardiancentury.co.uk/1940-1949/Story/0,6051,128255,00.html

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I didn't see the word "boring" mentioned once there. And I reckon his paid audience were enjoying themselves, too.


/Soup


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XyZspineZyX
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