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One13
12-17-2004, 11:29 AM
There has been a lot of speculation and rumor mongering about future developments so here is a message from Oleg found on France-simuation.com. Hope you find it informative-


Hi,
Rumors just partially right. nd in some way completely wrong
1) 1C was releasing add-ons as well in the past separatelly of Ubisoft in Russia.
It was released already 3 (or 4) add-ons with the static campaigns only for
Russian market and there was one of them a huge hit ("The roads of the war". After this add-on that was created by two guys one became a member of our team). However such add-ons didn't make Russian version incompatible online with the non-russian language versions. We are personally almost not involved in developemtn of them.
2) We are in a great hope that these planned add-ons will meet western market as well by one of the
ways and almost simultaniosly with the Russian. It will depends of many
factors that are out of our own control.
3) We will be way more busy with the new sim development. So these add-ons
will make third party with the guys that are trained well here in Moscow using our tools. So
from us it will be relatively minimal investment of the work that to make
final tunings and programming and to do not stop any developments of new
sim (BoB).
4) We can't sell ourselves on western market any additions, etc for the the
Il-2 series without agreement with Ubisoft. So they should decide what to
do if there will be such add-ons ready (localised at lest for English). Unfortunatelly usually such small add-ons are absolutley non-profitable in the west....
5) These add-on(s) contains only Russian planes and maps. Most of them are experimental prop+jet (such as existed and tested La-7R 1944, Yak-3R 1944, MiG-13 1945, etc, for which we have enough info that to model) and jet planes (say unreleased LaGG-3RD-1 1941-42, that looks like Yak-15). One of them MiG-9, which was never modelled in any sim. All is limited to 1946 year as we was agreed long time ago even with third party.
Also maps which are planned for these add-ons ar Ukraine and the area of East for 1945 invation of Russian troops in the war against Japan. For this if all will be Ok in time, ordered IL-10
6) As it known alredy for public by the leaked info, currently we will not develop or accept from third party any planes owned by Nothrop (Grumman, Vough, Republic). Even the one that we did already for free add-on... No comments. However it doesn't means that we really wont to model them now or in future.... Sorry can't tell you more curently.
7) Other planes - still possible. The limits are the same - they should be done without technology bugs. Such bug limit us in time and we ae unable to rework third party models as it was in the past (just 4 guys in the world doing currently 3D models for our sim with no bugs... Sorry)
8) the maps of Murmansk and Kurland (for use of NN as well) for a merged install will be available for free when its done finally.
Hope I answer for all possible questions.

Airmail109
12-17-2004, 11:32 AM
how can we go about getting these Russian add-ons that we cant get for some reason. Why cant we get them....its not like thier US planes?

One13
12-17-2004, 11:39 AM
The game in Russia is distributed by a different company, not Ubisoft. I think maddox games distribute there, I suppose it would not be too difficult to buy the Russian version over the net. The only problem is you would have to know Russian to use it.

Airmail109
12-17-2004, 11:43 AM
i will happily learn russian............no wait theres a game..........GTR Racing, only came out in Germany...some clever dude modded it and translated it into english. So you could buy it from germany!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

StellarRat
12-17-2004, 11:47 AM
Who cares if they can't model anymore Northrup planes? Geez, don't you think we have enough already. Every COMMON fighter in WWII is already modeled. What we need is more air to ground features, more online fixes/features, a flyable four engine bomber (B-17 and Lancaster would make the most sense) and to fix the existing bugs. We don't need more planes!

BM357_TinMan
12-17-2004, 11:49 AM
You know, 1C Maddox should seriously consider a "Austin Meyers" approach for distribution for BoB and cut out UBI all together.

Yes, it would cost him and his company money to maintain a website and bandwith for distribution, but I'm sure that UBI already cost him money now and he could have total say over patches and such.

As for multiplayer lobbies, UBI's lobby is alread a craapy deal anyway, and a good deal of people already use Hyperlobby. Oleg could work a deal with Jirri and that would solve that problem straight away....



Just a thought....

crazyivan1970
12-17-2004, 11:57 AM
is there a link to it?

BuzzU
12-17-2004, 11:58 AM
I guess this answers why we won't get a P-47N..http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
12-17-2004, 11:58 AM
Oh, no, they really put US-aircraft on hold. Great. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

If I meet that US-law-guy, grrrrr. What a stupid thing to do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Airmail109
12-17-2004, 11:59 AM
what gtr racing ill find it........heres there official website http://www.gtr-game.com/index.php?page=frontpage0 the mod isnt found on there though......you have to look through racing sim forums......ill try and find them.

Ruy Horta
12-17-2004, 12:04 PM
Well finally some good info.

All we need now is a way to publish this add in the West, why limit it to Russia?

Russian 1946 stuff nice!

F0_Dark_P
12-17-2004, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimail101:
how can we go about getting these Russian add-ons that we cant get for some reason. Why cant we get them....its not like thier US planes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>as he says they aint profitable in the west.... , which i think is BS they will sell as good as the il2 games here

and i wonder why they cant make the Nothrop (Grumman, Vough, Republic) planes?, if it is couse 1c must pay royalties i think those companies can suck my fat-**** http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif i hope it is some other thing

couse i believed that those companies would be glad to se their planes in the sky again, il2 is honouring those airplanes and the people that flew them, of course this dont have to be why they wont come, but if it is i am really mad on these companies they just cant take money for history http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

crazyivan1970
12-17-2004, 12:05 PM
I would like to see a link to Olegs post,

Thanks

Capt._Tenneal
12-17-2004, 12:06 PM
It seems that the hang up is just with Northrop/Grumman. Does anyone know which of the WW 2 companies fall under their banner now ?

[edit] official site (http://www.northropgrumman.com/heritage/index.html)

Seems that as far as the sim is concerned the companies affected are Northorp (duh!), Grumman (duh!), Ryan Aeronautical, Newport News Shipbuilding.

As far as the Russian add-ons, that means there is still some hope for the IL-2 series before BOB. Once 1C:Maddox turns their resources full time to BOB development, there is still a chance that the previously released Russian add-ons (or any future ones) can be translated and released to the rest of the world one way or another. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dadada1
12-17-2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimail101:
i will happily learn russian............no wait theres a game..........GTR Racing, only came out in Germany...some clever dude modded it and translated it into english. So you could buy it from germany!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I've currently got the German version of GTR and am wading through it at the moment. GTR is a driving sim for anyone thats into driving sims. GTR is awsome, it has the attention to detail that IL2 has, and as far as I know a limited number of people are aware of it at the moment. If you are a hardcore driving simmer watch out for this. A lot less cars than Gran Tourismo 4, but I believe better graphics and driving physics. This is to driving sims what Il2 is to flight sims. Remember, you heard it from us first! Apologies for the OT rave.

Airmail109
12-17-2004, 12:06 PM
Ruy-Horta we dont need to publish it in the west we can do a english translation mod to the russian version.

CRAZYIVAN here are the forums for GTR, it includes discussion of thier mod of GTR which is in German. Its a good thriving community as well http://www.simracingworld.com/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=26&sid=76055e6c65b25f3918d6b4930ff83925

Hans_Philipp
12-17-2004, 12:10 PM
http://france-simulation.com/article.php?sid=443&mode=&order=0&thold=0

crazyivan1970
12-17-2004, 12:19 PM
Ty Hans!

StellarRat
12-17-2004, 12:23 PM
Once we know all the facts about this (which we don't) why don't of you that are sitting *****ing about this write a nice letter to Northrup explaining the situation and asking them to reconsider? I'm sure some low level manager over there is responsible for this notice to Oleg and doesn't realize the what he is doing to Northrup's standing with the flight sim community. Trust me, these big companies care about what the public thinks. If they lose one real sale of a plane because of this they'll probably lose more money then anything they'd make from Oleg or UBI to use their plane names. And quit picking on the lawyers, they only do what the company tells them to do.

Airmail109
12-17-2004, 12:26 PM
REBELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL..............SEND NOTHROP AN E-MAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AFJ_Locust
12-17-2004, 12:26 PM
6) As it known alredy for public by the leaked info, currently we will not develop or accept from third party any planes owned by Nothrop (Grumman, Vough, Republic). Even the one that we did already for free add-on... No comments. However it doesn't means that we really wont to model them now or in future.... Sorry can't tell you more curently.

Unbelivable !!!

So then no P47n ? Figures

F16_Neo
12-17-2004, 01:01 PM
Quote StellarRat: "If they lose one real sale of a plane because of this they'll probably lose more money then anything they'd make from Oleg or UBI to use their plane names." (Noticed how many in this community are RL pilots?)
Is a petition to Nothrop needed? Maybe they don't know what is best for them in the long run.
Symbiosis; Plane manufacturers and sim developers have no reason to compete (different kind of products) and would both benefit from friendly cooperation.

Chuck_Older
12-17-2004, 02:24 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Hold it right there! Hit the brakes!</span>

When a product made by Northrop, Grumman, or Republic was sold, the original buyer paid the company that made it.

In the case of the aircraft in question, this buyer was the US Government.

After the war, the Government either stored, scrapped or sold these planes.

In the case of a sale, it is much the same as a used automobile:

The original manufacturer gets not one thin dime from the sale of an aircraft it already sold and is no longer the owner of!

That is a sle between the US Government and the new buyer. The original manufacturer doesn't get money.

Grumman cannot today lose money on the sale of an aircraft made in the '40s, sold to the US government, then re-sold by the US Government to another party.

If the person or organisation that owns the rights to the name Grumman, Northrop, or Republic doesn't want the name or likeness of their legally owned property to be used, and the Law says that unless permission is obtained for the use of the name or likeness, then it is legal and right for that person or organisation to take steps to force whoever used it without permission to stop using it. They say "no" and that is that.

That is just how it is, people. there's nothing to discuss. If that's how they feel, they are 100% within their rights to do it.

Yes it's not good for us. But these people paid for the legal Right to protect their purchases.

Oleg has apparently posted about this, and unfortunately I still don't know what is actually happening; he is vague and his English isn't great.

But Grumman, for example, doesn't get money every time one of their aircraft is re-sold. They got money on the original purchase. Unless they buy the aircraft back, they never get money from the sale of that aircraft again. they don't get a royalty every time someone new buys the plane

Rola.
12-17-2004, 03:29 PM
I vividly remember that after a patch to "Strike Fighters - Project 1" a tiny line of text was added on the bottom of the main screen, saying that F-104 and C-130 are (c), TM of Lockheed Martin Corporation... so looks like Tsuyoshi Kawahito also had a meeting with lawsuits...


All your base are belong to us http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LBR_Rommel
12-17-2004, 03:32 PM
Sry But IF the things is the way it looks, remove all the americans planes e lets get back to the Russia X Germany X British planes only.

Chuck_Older
12-17-2004, 03:37 PM
The USSR used a pretty large number of US aircraft during WWII.

Capt.LoneRanger
12-17-2004, 03:50 PM
The problem is the copyright, Chuck_Older, not the one that owned it. And as manufacturer the copyright belongs to Northrop/Grumman.

It would be interesting to know if the addon is on hold or if the single a/c from Grumman is removed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

berg417448
12-17-2004, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LBR_Rommel:
Sry But IF the things is the way it looks, remove all the americans planes e lets get back to the Russia X Germany X British planes only. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No one is forcing you to fly planes that you don't like.

civildog
12-17-2004, 03:52 PM
We could just boycott Grumman, etc. and they won't sell any more planes and go out of business, then realise the error of their ways... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Or we could second and third Older's suggestion and concentrate on what's more productive: the Russian Front.

Pe-2! Pe-3! Pe-8! Ju-88! ad infinitum....

X-planes!! Ta-183, MiG jets, Yak jets, Meteors!!

Capt.LoneRanger
12-17-2004, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We could just boycott Grumman, etc. and they won't sell any more planes and go out of business, then realise the error of their ways... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good idea! I promise I'll never ever buy a Grumman a/c http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

There is a problem with the original a/c in IL2: Some of them were US-planes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Saturnalia
12-17-2004, 03:58 PM
Fyi, a list of aircraft produced by the mentioned companies:

Fighters:
P-47 (Republic)
F-4F (Grumman)
F-6F (Grumman)
F-7F (Grumman)
F-8F (Grumman)
P-61 (Grumman)

Bombers/Attack:
Avenger (Grumman)

http://naval.aviation.museum/museum.html
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/rsrch.htm

adlabs6
12-17-2004, 04:17 PM
Why boycott Grumman? Take a look at the Ace Combat 5 website link here, and check the "legal" link at the bottom. It clearly says that "such and such" planes are Northrop Grumman System Corporation and are used under LICENSE!

http://acecombat5.namco.com/

I take it to mean that Grumman has a licensing program? Clearly Namco is doing something right. I wonder if UBI is unwilling to pay for the license to add planes for a free patch?

civildog
12-17-2004, 04:19 PM
Uh, the "boycott" was just a joke. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
12-17-2004, 04:29 PM
So was my answer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Let's wait and see what happens. There are other games on the market that have licensed modells or data. I don't know how it will be handled here and if 1C is really willing to make the effort, since BoB is their primary product, now. Oleg will surely inform us, if there is a decision made.

ComradeBadinov
12-17-2004, 04:36 PM
Ok, what the heck does any of that have to do with the Betty, and the other Japanese planes, Japanese ships, American ships or Maps... ie Philippines, or the British ground vehicles, that were suppose to be in the original release..... nothing is being said about that.... It looks like OM is shelving this game for the western market, to get on with BoB... Which is kind of strange, because BoB planes are all he will be able to do, if the copyright crapola is true... you will not see a Mediterranian theater war if American planes can't be done. Some of it may be true, and it may all be smoke and mirrors... not everyone does business the way it's done here in the west and does not understand how to get there point across to people who do not think the same..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

xTHRUDx
12-17-2004, 04:44 PM
so let me get this straight. i tell a game Co. that they can come to my house and model my Saab for a racing game. then Saab can go after the game Co. for using MY car in the game? that doesn't seem correct.

Sig.Hirsch
12-17-2004, 05:20 PM
This sim is fantastic , we already have almost all USAAF planes of WWII (like more than 90% of them ) , well , in the future if any developper want to implement US plane , he'll have to pay , simple as that , like football games , car games have to pay for their licenses etc...

Yea , no P-47N , no P-51 H , no late war US plane , ok it's not cool for the fans, but i find it a great opportunity to add more British RAF planes like Mosquitos , Lancasters , Spits I to III , Sea Hurricanes and other planes of early to mid war conflict , VVS planes like Pe-2 , Pe-8 flyable , or Tupolev , German very common planes missing like Dornier 217 , Junker 88 , Messerschmitt 410 , some italian planes that we lack from the beggining of Il-2 FB , and maybe a couple of other early war birds .

It's not such a bad news basically , if we can have the planes quoted above . All the community ,would benefit from it ,as we could make even more realistic campaigns , and the game would be
far more complete as regards the European theater , and also , it could help some modellers to recall that USAAF had an opponent in the Pacific and that many japanese planes are
still missing to simulate accurately the PTO

cheers,

zetareticulan
12-17-2004, 06:10 PM
I'm very VERY pleased to hear the Battle of Britain Sim hasn't been derailed.

MaxMhz
12-17-2004, 06:15 PM
This is the culprid; the DMCA :
http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

The ONLY "member" is the U.S.A. for that matter...
It's US federal law by now - meaning ANY investigation/lawsuit is payed BY THE TAXPAYER - and any profit is going to the copyright holder...

It's time for US citizens to wake up... and write to congress...
Or this will become the biggest book-burning ever http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Bull_dog_
12-17-2004, 06:27 PM
What large organizations like Grumman hate worse is negative publicity...the kind that makes headlines on Sunday night on 60 Minutes. Defense contracts are big business and no politician in the US would be caught affiliated with a slug of a company....now only to figure out the angle...

Maybe small Russian developer gets trounced by large defense contractor just flexing its muscle.... or Aerospace industry attacking Russian capitalism in effort to bolster sales of military hardware....etc.

These large corporations are within their rights to exercise the law, unfortunately these things are really more of a product of internal bueracracy than any threat to profits....Imagine a bunch of corporate lawyers looking for a way to justify their existance??? Its actually kinda sick if you think about it but the bottom dwellers of our society are hard at work redistributing the wealth while trying to convince us all they really should be allowed to live and prosper; even if that means threatening a software modeller. Seems like most companies would want their logo's all over the place. In case you didn't notice, I have little use for a lawyer...especially one looking for work.

FI.Snaphoo
12-17-2004, 06:36 PM
They're not taking away any planes right? So, we have a pretty extensive collection of planes. And those in the game can be corrected, I'm guessing, to the point that that they are more correct than they are. And there's nothing saying that an agreement won't be reached with Northrop-Grumman (Vought) etc.

Perhaps I'm being too optimistic, but with all of the past sims that have had representations of these planes that are in question, I can only guess that these "evil" American companies are looking for an agreement of some kind that should be able to be met in some form of arbitration. I hate that it came to that, especially since that may mean the exclusion of some of my favorite american planes. But I don't think this is the end, as has been the line from the doomsayers thus far....

civildog
12-18-2004, 12:05 AM
Looking at it as a question of using the actual namebrand or trademarked name of a corporation (Grumman) or aircraft ("Wildcat") I can see why a company might be zealous in protecting it's trademark. It has to or it can lose it very easily according to US copyright laws.

Yet, I'm looking right now through several of my plastic models by both foreign and domestic producers and I see no mention of permission having been granted to the company to market Tomahawks, Mustangs, Hellcats, Devestators, etc. None of them even say thanks to the respective aircraft maker for providing info on the plane.

Same with my manuals for MiG Alley or EAW. Interesting.

TX-Gunslinger
12-18-2004, 12:16 AM
One more time. I can't believe I'm actually responding to this. This just happens to be an area I know something about.

Chuck Older is completely correct. Most of you won't listen. This topic has been going on for days now on at least two different forums.

As an almost exclusive rule, if you make, produce and manufacture goods for the U.S. Government then you may only own intellectual and limited trademark copyrights, which means after 60 years, absolutely nothing.

No, the Republic, Northrop Grumman, Chance-Vought issue, is a non-issue. It is also an immoral issue that probably would'nt even make it to court.

Consider this:

1) The "People of the United States of America" paid for the Development, Purchase and Operation of these 60 YEAR OLD aircraft, which are currently, in fact, obselete.

2) The "People of the United States of America" fought, died and maintained these aircraft, during wartime, while these contractors profitted from the sale of this "War Material".

3) What possible claim could there be? Are Corsair sales about to plummet?

I do this defense stuff for a living. Not even today in the wonderful world of defense corporate conglomerates like "Lockmart" (this by the way is the term that Government insiders use for Lockheed Martin, like Walmart) does the U.S. Government cut deals like this.

P-47, F4U are the property of the American People, not the companys who build them.

Ok. Let's say for a minute that the true concern is paying out money for legal counsel to look into a potential claim.

Just remove the words "Republic, Pratt and Whitney, Chance-Vought, etc..etc..." If the trademarks were the actual issue, then I'd say remove them and force the Defense Contractors to the eventual obscurity they deserve.

Republic did'nt make the P-47 famous. Hub Zemke, Robert Johnson, Gabby Gabreski and a lot of dead American and German pilots did. Well, when I think about it, I guess Copperhead deserves some credit too.

Imagine any of this hogwash, playing out in a courtroom. You can't. This entire subject is a sham. You all are treating it like we were talking about a Chevrolet "Corvette" or "Nova". That would be a completely different matter entirely.

Use the military nomenclatures for everything in the documentation. Are any of you out there seriously going to try and maintain that, military designators are somehow protected by copyright? Come on, you guys can't believe this.

Now what do I think is really up? Well, I love 1C and Maddox games but I think this has alot more to do with Western Market share controlled by the distributer, than any thing else. Perhaps the distributer was threatened with legal action, and just does'nt want to spend the money (lot of money) to have the legal research done to find out what their actual liablity issue is. In any event, at least I'll admit, I DON'T KNOW what is going on, I just know it is not about trademark disputes on non-existant fighter aircraft.

Maybe Oleg is just tired of trying to make ALL the WWII aircraft in a 3 year old engine and just wants time to do BOB right. I mean, if that's the case I understand. What do you say to a community which has several hundred aircraft and demands more?

Anyway, I guess the subject makes good gossip and hype. I sincerely hope this subject matter is just something that got "lost in translation" between a western business interest and a Russian software developer.

S~

civildog
12-18-2004, 12:23 AM
I think it has more to do with some giant Microsoft conspiracy because their games are so lousy. I figure that as long as I wear my tinfoil hat while I play, then Microsoft's black helicopters won't be able to see me flying a simulated plane they also try to market a sim of.

TX-Gunslinger
12-18-2004, 12:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CivilDog:
I think it has more to do with some giant Microsoft conspiracy because their games are so lousy. I figure that as long as I wear my tinfoil hat while I play, then Microsoft's black helicopters won't be able to see me flying a simulated plane they also try to market a sim of. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL - Thanks CivilDog, I needed that!

Capt.LoneRanger
12-18-2004, 01:22 AM
Isn't this more about copyright than ownership, TX-Gunslinger? To transfer your example, we cannot share resell, change or modify IL2 without permission, nor can we make money of it, using the brand in other games or addons, to make money of it. The same is with the manufacturer and the owner of planes.

But then, of course you're right. "P" and "F" designations are not the companies reserved rights, and can not legally demand money for aircraft their invented, being introduced in modern games. That infact is nonsense, cause it would mean that you'd have to pay a fee for every time you draw such an a/c or sell photos of it.

As I said in one of the various threads, if this hype was really true and other companies would follow them, this would be the end of the movie-buisiness. Just imagine a movie without products, that can be identified, because it would be just the same. No car-chase, no gunfights, no computer, not even a carpet or a wallpaper would be possible to be in a movie, cause the manufacturer could be upset you used his products without licensing them.

Let's wait and see what happens. I doubt this would mean the end of anything, though I can understand new US a/c are put on hold. (That's one - a single a/c from the addon, nothing else)

TX-Gunslinger
12-18-2004, 01:38 AM
Yes Sir!

That would be the only thing worth arguing. In the case of the "Starfighter/Lockheed" thing in Strike Fighters, I believe the issue was the name "Starfighter", which is still in use in a few airforces in the world.

This is potentially relevant, as the F-104 might arguably have some current and future market (however small) that could be affected by the modeling of it's performance in a modern simulation.

Hmmm....just made me wonder why Sukhoi is'nt sueing the pants of the jetsim developers for putting one of their best jets into a sim with F-15's and A-10's with respect to more modern combat flight sims.

But.... as you so correctly pointed out. This application of the law does not apply to ANY of the planes in this sim.

Your post made me remember the boy in "Empire of the Sun" shouting "P-51 MUSTANG, CADILLAC OF THE SKY!".............. That would kind of be over if there were any weight to all this. I would'nt worry.

Good to see you Captain...

Bsnakeman
12-18-2004, 02:39 AM
Here goes my 2 cents contribution mailed to:

onewebmaster@ngc.com

Dear Sirs

As a combat flight simulator pilot ( IL2 FB+AEP+PF ) I´ve found out that your company are putting legal restrictions of the use of Grumman, Republic & Vougth warbirds of WWII in this sim.
It´s worth to remind that this sim is THE BEST WWII airwarfare ever and it honours the thousands who flew and died on the P-47´s, Wildcats, Hellcats, Corsairs, etc. during that conflict.
The way that thousands of worldwide virtual pilots fly on this sim everyday using planes that your company developed is the best marketing a company would wish to have and, for free, but this greedy and nonsense attitude toward the memory of History just maculate your company´s image.
I humbly suggest a reconsideration on this matter for the benefit of all aviation lovers which I believe your company´s team, past and present, belonged and belongs as well.

Cordially,

Roberto Monteiro Gomes
(Bsnakeman)

Aaron_GT
12-18-2004, 03:44 AM
"1) The "People of the United States of America" paid for the Development, Purchase and Operation of these 60 YEAR OLD aircraft, which are currently, in fact, obselete."

No, the companies developed the aircraft. The US Government, as a customer, may have had input into the development, but then so did other countries buying them. In the case of the P51 the initial specification was in response to a request from the BRITISH Government! This does not mean that the UK Government in any way owns anything of the P51.

The US Government paid for purchase and operation and, along with the British and other nations, helped guide the development (which cost them money in terms of testing and so on) but unless the contracts with those governments expressly transferred IP the IP remained with the companies.

Chuck_Older
12-18-2004, 07:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viking-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
The USSR used a pretty large number of US aircraft during WWII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure we can manage without them. Move along!

Viking <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's this "we" stuff, paleface?

DuxCorvan
12-18-2004, 07:33 AM
Why I don't like is the Russian version being different from ours. I want those planes, too. Why can't I have 'em? I've paid the same that the Russian customers... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

GerritJ9
12-18-2004, 03:13 PM
Er.... Dux..... I don't think you paid the same as Russian buyers did. I purchased the Russian versions of FB and AEP in Kyiv in October; I spent a total of 55 hryvnas for both- at the exchange rate in October that means approximately $10.00. Surely you are not suggesting that you paid $10.00 for FB AND AEP???
Whether the Russian add-ons are released in the West or not, I will be buying the CDs (including PF which hadn't been released when I was in Kyiv) during my next trip there.

A.K.Davis
12-19-2004, 10:46 AM
Some clarifications:

1. The F4F3-S (floatplane Wildcat) is the completed aircraft that will not be included. The modeller was paid, but we will never see it released in the U.S.

2. This issue originally arose 2 days before the planned release of Pacific Fighters and was the real cause for its delay.

3. Completed ship models built in shipyards now owned by Northrop-Grumman will also no longer be included in the patch/add-on (i.e. USS Yorktown class).

4. Cockpit for Avenger may still be possible.

A.K.Davis
12-19-2004, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-Gunslinger:
Yes Sir!

That would be the only thing worth arguing. In the case of the "Starfighter/Lockheed" thing in Strike Fighters, I believe the issue was the name "Starfighter", which is still in use in a few airforces in the world.

This is potentially relevant, as the F-104 might arguably have some current and future market (however small) that could be affected by the modeling of it's performance in a modern simulation.

Hmmm....just made me wonder why Sukhoi is'nt sueing the pants of the jetsim developers for putting one of their best jets into a sim with F-15's and A-10's with respect to more modern combat flight sims.

But.... as you so correctly pointed out. This application of the law does not apply to ANY of the planes in this sim.

Your post made me remember the boy in "Empire of the Sun" shouting "P-51 MUSTANG, CADILLAC OF THE SKY!".............. That would kind of be over if there were any weight to all this. I would'nt worry.

Good to see you Captain... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I immediately thought of that scene in Empire of the Sun, as well. Point here, however, is that these attempts at trademark enforcement by Northrop-Grumman are a new development. So concerning your "I wouldn't worry" statement:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Here is an update:

I spoke to Mr. Patrick Joyce (310.201.3384) at Northrop this morning. He is the person who handles such things for their company; it might even be his only responsibility. Anyway, he was the person who requested TM fees from the Russian developer and eventually received said fees from the French publisher. He is not an attorney but here is what I could gather from our little chat.

Northrop/Grumman is requiring trademark licensing fees for the use of any aircraft, ship, boat, vehicle or weapon system that they our any of their acquired companies have ever produced. They maintain that all these things are covered by either registered trademark or €œcommon law€ trademark, sometimes both.

Upon further inquiry, he stated that all video/computer games, motion pictures, television, and toys are subject to these fees. When asked about literature, he said no.

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?s=ad891284498e96092ac7da4ef1063a4a&threadid=13370&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...I would worry.

tsisqua
12-19-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viking-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Viking-S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
The USSR used a pretty large number of US aircraft during WWII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sure we can manage without them. Move along!

Viking <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's this "we" stuff, paleface? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/p-010281-00-4h.jpg

Why the insult? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joke Reference, not an insult, as I see it:

The Lone Ranger and Tonto were patroling the desert, and spied a group of wild Apache approaching from the West. "What do you think we should do?" inquired the Ranger.

"Uhm, Tonto think ride East."

So they change their course, and are soon seeing oncoming Sioux warriors. "Great! What should we do now, Tonto."

"Them plenty angry. Ride North, fast!"

Soon they are in sight of of a Blackfoot raiding party. "What should we do now, Tonto?"

"What you mean, 'we', paleface?"


Tsisqua

FI_Macca44
12-19-2004, 05:24 PM
I'm very glad to hear that we are going to get some more Russian planes and maps, I prefer Eastern front to the Pacific, though I love the PTOhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifBut no Avenger.....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif......

anyway,for those wanting to buy Russian version of the game,in case the future addons are to be Russian versions only:

If u want to order Il-2 series from Russia ,I would reccomend www.ozon.ru (http://www.ozon.ru) ,an online store that sells abroad as well as in Russia.

Here are the links

Forgotten Battles

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1370875/?from=buyalso_1626770


Ace Expansion Pack (Aces in the Sky)

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1626770/?from=buyalso_1370875


Pacific Fighters (Pearl Harbor)

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1948127/?from=buyalso_1626770

Il-2 Sturmovik- the Second Front (addon)

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1602050/?from=buyalso_1948127

Original Il-2

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/149828/?from=buyalso_1370875

Operation Barbarossa (addon)

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1710989/?from=buyalso_1602050

Roads To War (addon Oleg mentioned)

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1570198/?from=buyalso_1602050


I think in a couple of days/weeks I'll order that stuff from Ozon.

Salut

dlian
12-20-2004, 01:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:
Once we know all the facts about this (which we don't) why don't of you that are sitting *****ing about this write a nice letter to Northrup explaining the situation and asking them to reconsider? I'm sure some low level manager over there is responsible for this notice to Oleg and doesn't realize the what he is doing to Northrup's standing with the flight sim community. Trust me, these big companies care about what the public thinks. If they lose one real sale of a plane because of this they'll probably lose more money then anything they'd make from Oleg or UBI to use their plane names. And quit picking on the lawyers, they only do what the company tells them to do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better still, get some national dailies to write up a story about a mean-minded company wanting even more money than what they've already overcharged (remember all the defence contract profiteering scandals?) the US taxpayers.

GerritJ9
12-20-2004, 02:32 AM
Northrop-Grumman MIGHT have a case in the case of aeroplanes, which they designed, but not ships. USN ships were designed by BuShips, the Navy's design office. So any possible trademark rights would rest with the USN, NOT Northrop-Grumman. And a simple way around this would be to release a ship under the name of one which was not built at a Northrop-Grumman yard. If, say, USS Enterprise was built at a yard now owned by N-G, simply call it USS Hornet if the Hornet was not built at a N-G shipyard. And even if Enterprise WAS built at a N-G yard, they have no legal title to the name Enterprise.

LEXX_Luthor
12-20-2004, 04:23 AM
Thanks FI_Macca44, I used the BabelFish to translate.

(Roads to WAR)

From The publisher The platform: WIN plastic Jewel case. Languages of the interface: Russian. On the program. &.tsuot;Dorogi of voyny&.tsuot; supplements aviasimulyator of &.tsuot;Il-2 the attack aircraft: Forgotten of srazheniya&.tsuot; by four new campaigns with total duration into 100 missions. For you one must participate into some of the most tragic and heavy battles of great domestic. Campaigns cover period from 1941 through 1945, and they narrate about the heroic defense of the Red Army in the environs of Orel and Moscow in 41 year, the removal of the blockade of Leningrad and the destruction of German- Hungarian troops near Balaton in Hungary. The fourth campaign is dedicated to operation on the release of the Crimea in the spring of 1944. Special features of the game: * be introduced to the real characters of the events of past years, pass together with them along the target run of such famous it is regimental as 4th GIAP and 611-1 IAP, learn the history of the crushing defeat of the German assault team II./SG2. * sit down at the steering control of 12 different types of destroyers and attack aircraft, represented in four campaigns. * participate in the night reconnaissance flights and the low-flying attacks with the adverse weather conditions, in the dangerous raids above the sea, the air battles above the cities and in the deep rear of enemy. * all missions of game are created on the basis of real historical events. * addition, besides the campaigns, contains 12 new diagrams of painting aircraft and 10 black and white rollers. The following new campaigns are represented on the disk: the &.tsuot;Khmuroye sky Of vengrii&.tsuot; (1944-1945), &.tsuot;Slomannye of kryl'ya&.tsuot; (1944), &.tsuot;Chetvertyy Gvardeyskiy&.tsuot; (1943-1944 yr.) and &.tsuot;Dorogi of voyny&.tsuot; (1941). Attention! For installation and starting of the addition of &.tsuot;Dorogi of voyny&.tsuot; is necessary the presence of that established on the computer of the game of &.tsuot;Il-2 the attack aircraft: Forgotten of srazheniya&.tsuot; (development of the firms of &.tsuot;yS&.tsuot; and ":Maddox Games). Web site of the publisher: www.з.ru System requirements: Windows98/2000/XP; DirectX versions 8.0 or are above; Pentium II 400 MHz; OZU of 128 Mb.; Compatible with DirectX 8.0 videokarta. Additional requirements: no with this goods frequently they buy
~ http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1570198/?from=buyalso_1602050

FI_Macca44
12-20-2004, 05:32 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI'm glad I could help.

The Russian language is not hard to learn, at least if u're from Poland or other Slavic country.My Russian is not perfect but good enough to buy via Ozon.Nice thing is that they accept paying not only with credit card but also,for those without such card, with direct transfer of maney from customer's account to their.

HansKnappstick
12-20-2004, 05:36 AM
Verry Nays.

But how to get info on how much is my order worth in Euros?

VVS-Manuc
12-20-2004, 05:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Some clarifications:

1. The F4F3-S (floatplane Wildcat) is the completed aircraft that will not be included. The modeller was paid, but we will never see it released in the U.S.

2. This issue originally arose 2 days before the planned release of Pacific Fighters and was the real cause for its delay.

3. Completed ship models built in shipyards now owned by Northrop-Grumman will also no longer be included in the patch/add-on (i.e. USS Yorktown class).

4. Cockpit for Avenger may still be possible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "Wildcatfish". I am sure we can do without it (another exotic plane)

FI_Macca44
12-20-2004, 06:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HansKnappstick:
Verry Nays.

But how to get info on how much is my order worth in Euros? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Accordind to polish service www.money.pl (http://www.money.pl) - 1 Euro is worth about 34 Russian rubels.sSo if Forgotten Battles costs 200 rub it costs about 6 EUR.the whole pack of all main iIl-2 series (FB,AEP,PF, original IL and one addon) would close in about 30 EUr or maybe a little above that.

HansKnappstick
12-20-2004, 07:06 AM
So the product + shipment would cost ~ 10 Euro. Man!

But wait: the international money order would cost 12 Euros. Now, that's a great relation of a net price to a gross price!

SeaFireLIV
12-20-2004, 09:33 AM
So if I summarise briefly, a US Company has blown it for ordinary Americans to have a chance to fly some 50+ old US planes in IL2/FB/PF? (Not to mention have an American ship in PF) And it seems the Russian company (Oleg) are basically too scared to challenge them anyway even if the US company is wrong? Talk about shooting yourself in the face. Amazing what sickening greed will do.

Amazing if true... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif