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XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:20 PM
Wow!! What a formidable machine! I did'nt know it was so maneuverable. I played a QMB scenario with 4 bf-109G6AS vs 4 pe-3s and 4 yak-9s as escort. Not only were they more maneuverable than a single engined fighter, but the sniper rear gunners were too much!! I found I could not turn inside it! I had the cannon pods on, but still- amazing!

http://frenchaces.free.fr/avions/regia/g50.jpg

Incocca!
Tende!
Scagua!

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XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:20 PM
Wow!! What a formidable machine! I did'nt know it was so maneuverable. I played a QMB scenario with 4 bf-109G6AS vs 4 pe-3s and 4 yak-9s as escort. Not only were they more maneuverable than a single engined fighter, but the sniper rear gunners were too much!! I found I could not turn inside it! I had the cannon pods on, but still- amazing!

http://frenchaces.free.fr/avions/regia/g50.jpg

Incocca!
Tende!
Scagua!

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:22 PM
It's ugly as hell though. =/

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:34 PM
What altitude?

I did some test AI vs AI 4 Fw190 (early) vs 4 Pe3bis and the Pe3s ate the 4 Fw190s at low altitude. But the Fw190s sawed the wings off the Pe3s at higher altitudes (about 5km I think). This could make sense. I dunno.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:39 PM
I would love to get to the controls of the Pe-3/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif ))Maybe in some add-on....../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )))I would shot down all Bf-110....I hate them!!!!!Its hard to fight them alone versus 8.....Me in i-16 18......I don't have enough ammo to kill 'em all.But with Wonderful Machne of VVs - Pe-3, i would be better than Schwalbe....or maybe not../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

To search for perfection
It's all very well
But to look for Heaven
Is to live here in Hell

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:40 PM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:
- What altitude?
-
1000m. I still think its way too maneuverable for a two engined, two crew aircraft. I can't believe its more maneuverable than a p-38. But...Its russian!!!!

http://frenchaces.free.fr/avions/regia/g50.jpg

Incocca!
Tende!
Scagua!

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_henry_blake.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 09:47 PM
Well, I also did some AI tests of 4 Pe3bis vs 4 Me210 and the Me come out on top. But that was only maybe 3-5 tests, so... Try going against Me-210 (fighter version) and see if it is any different than Pe~3.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:13 PM
You cant fly either Me or Pe, how can you have test like that?

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:20 PM
TAW acutely observes::
-- You cant fly either Me or Pe, how can you have test like that?

But Mike originally wrote:::
-- I played a QMB scenario with 4 bf-109G6AS vs 4 pe-3s and 4 yak-9s as escort.

Try flying ~against~ Me210 instead. Simple. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I don't know how much a dogfighter a 210 would make. I do "think" Pe2/3 was pretty hot. But in my (*very few*) AI tests, the 210s came out better than the Pe3s. May have to do that again though.



Message Edited on 06/26/0309:23PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:25 PM
Yes the Pe-3 is ridiculous as far as its manueverbility and the gunners ability to fire accurately while in combat maneuvers. The gunners also show the fact that the AI can see through their aircraft, an example is when coming under a Pe-3 and attacking it and the gunners begins firing the moment the lead angle is correct and they can shoot. Often times they will fire before your actually in view of the gunner. It also seems the Pe-3 has no problems with over speed or structural limits. I have had them keep up with me in a dive in a 109 that is feeling the effects of overspeed, yet the big twin engine AC pulls out of the dive as well as my 109. Also has anyone noticed that at futher LOD's the Pe-3 appears to be the same size as a 109? Another example of the "slight" Russian bias in this game.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:32 PM
You may wish to check the Me210 for possible German bias in this game.

verygrimsmileyface.rbj

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 10:35 PM
It's quite easy to try non-flyable AIs against each other. Use the FMB to create a simple "mission" in which the Pe-3 and the 210 (or whatever) engage, and then hit "fly" and you can watch the whole thing in exterior views as a third-person observer.

Or if that's too much trouble, use the QMB, set them up as friendly and enemy, give yourself whatever plane you like, and then bail as soon as they come in view; and, again, watch the rest of the action in external views.

I do this quite a bit; it can be pretty entertaining. Never thought to try the Pe against the 210, though.

I did try using the Pe-3 in some missions in a 1941 Moscow campaign, as they were particularly active in that part of the war (a strafing Pe-3 almost got Guderian), and found that they fought in a very unrealistic way, even by AI standards - they would try to turn-fight and the like, basically flying just like a single-engine fighter, instead of using their dive speed to disengage - so I quit using them. Sounds as if they've been bumped up in FB, though. The ones in IL-2 couldn't get out of their own way and their gunners never hit anything.

XyZspineZyX
06-26-2003, 11:40 PM
Okay. I just flew Yak3 (forgive me) against Pe3bis, Me110C4,and Me210 (first version listed).

Fought Pe3 first, yes it enters turn fight at the start.

Then 210. After first closure, it tries to extend away at first. This is Amazing though:: Was coming up from beneath 210, almost vertical from below, and the twin tracers were dancing past my cockpit, falling from the blue sky above. Sexy. Seems the side mounted twin defensive guns are in small turrets that can turn straight down. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Was not expecting that. Try it, come from below at steep climb after you get into position for that. Anyway, 210 extended but eventually I forced it into turning.

Overall, I thought Pe3 was slightly tougher opponent than 210.

110 was easy, although gunner took me out the first time.

Yes, the gunners were firing during some high gee maneuvering, but significantly, the fire was not constant (I guess the gunner stopped to grunt to his/her pilot to STOP THAT). Overall, gunners pretty deadly on all three.

Oleg is biased against Germany/Russia. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

However, it has been stated that The Patch will ease up on gunner marksmanship, especially in hard maneurvering.

All my test fights occured at 3km alt, most ended up at ground level (I am neither good shot nor good pilot I like planning air warfare more), and we started about 8km head on but with about 2 km lateral seperation. Then we closed, but I know enough *not* to turn directly to them with the murderous FB head on gunnery effects, especially considering the nose weapons of these planes.

Overall, Pe3, 110, 210 pretty nice stuff, with Pe~3 and 210 more difficult to fight than 110.




Message Edited on 06/26/0310:44PM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 12:47 AM
Pe2/3 were excellent planes and, in various iterations, could outrun both F and earlier G 109s.

Please not let's go down the bias route, though. We all know the game is (necessarily) an imperfect representation of its subject matter.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 12:54 AM
Try the 110G

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_falco.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:08 AM
bazzaah2 wrote:
- Pe2/3 were excellent planes and, in various
- iterations, could outrun both F and earlier G 109s.
-

Uhhmm....

Top speeds:

109 G-2: 620kmh

Pe-2: 540kmh


Pe-2 can not outrun 109.



-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:15 AM
mike_espo wrote:
- LEXX_Luthor wrote:
-- What altitude?
--
- 1000m. I still think its way too maneuverable for a
- two engined, two crew aircraft. I can't believe its
- more maneuverable than a p-38. But...Its russian!!!!
-

Well in RL Pe-2 wasn't very manouverable. It was originally designed as high altitude interceptor, and the wing design didn' thus perform very well in manouvers especially at low speeds.

At tight turns lowest possible speed was about 290kmh, and the tightest possible turn without loosing height was 60 degrees bank. In 75 degree plane would easily bleed too much speed and loose altitude. Stall speed in clean configuration 190kmh and in landing conditions 160kmh.

-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:26 AM
Thanks Jippo. That's why I chose a Yak3. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But my point was that perhaps Me210 is a bit too agile also, thus possibly demonstrating Oleg is biased against VVS/Russian aircraft. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:28 AM
LEXX_Luthor wrote:

- But my point was that perhaps Me210 is a bit too
- agile also, thus possibly demonstrating Oleg is
- biased against VVS/Russian aircraft.


Or then AI only planes do not have as detailed FM's than the flyables/may have some mistakes. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 04:49 AM
at what altitudes? if they perform better at differnt alitudes then it is possible for both to outrun each other.

I have heard tales of Pe2/3's being able to turn as well as a 109 under right conditions.

<center>
<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/zORKSstuff/images/6-picture6.jpg><center>

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 05:56 AM
P3 on ACE isnt really a hellova flying machine, but its gunner is a madman. I outclimbed and out turned it in a 109E, although I kept dying cuz my enigne overheated for no reason.

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 11:03 AM
quite right Jippo1. I misread my book - my point related more to Es and Fs.

But this type should def. be flyable in the game as some 12.000 Pe 2/3s were built (vast majority Pe2s).

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 12:44 PM
CdtWeasel wrote:
- at what altitudes? if they perform better at
- differnt alitudes then it is possible for both to
- outrun each other.

According to the stuff I have here Me-109 G-2 is about 60-120km/h faster in all altitudes

- I have heard tales of Pe2/3's being able to turn as
- well as a 109 under right conditions.

I think this is quite impossible. Blenheim I for example was considered extremely manouverable bomber (which Pe-2 was not) by all, and it is said to have achieved 360 degree turn in 20 seconds. But the Finnish testflight squadron measured the time to be 40 seconds for sustained 360 turn.
What comes to Pe-2 in comparison with other bombers is that it was definately less manouverable than Blenheim or Junkers 88, but significantly faster than these planes.

So if we end up seeing a ju-88 C-6 vs. Pe-3 twin engine fighter duels, we propably see the tables turned and Ju-88 resorting to manouvering and turns while Pe-3 is boom & zooming. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Let's keep fingers crossed for such event. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
06-27-2003, 01:36 PM
Those Pe2,3 from Hell are AI crafts! That makes HUGE different, they are NOT flying under the same laws and rules as flyables crafts...