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View Full Version : New Guinea - important missing point in the theater



HKLE
11-09-2004, 01:13 AM
Hi guys

I was reading Saburo Sakais book (Samurai) more than once. To prepare myself for the pacific theater, I read it once again.

Sakai saw a lot of frisk action in New Guinea in 1942, flying daily missions into Port Moresby from a small location called Lae.

The book is very intense, so I was looking for rebuilding some of those missions in PF. Sadly enough, Lae is not part of the New Guinea map - just a bit outside ....

RAC_Pips
11-09-2004, 01:28 AM
Yep, I too was very disappointed that New Guinea was not included in the original release.

It was after all the most important theatre of operations for the USAAF, US Army, RAAF, Australian Army, IJAAF and the Japanese Army from 1942 to 1944. The resources that were allocated to this region, and the actions that took place had a huge bearing on the conduct of the war throughout the SWPA.

I am hoping this issue will be addressed in the next patch.

Troll2k
11-09-2004, 02:57 AM
Maybe I missed the point.There is a New Guinea map in the original Pacific Fighters.

HKLE
11-09-2004, 03:24 AM
Hi Troll2k

Yes there is - but only a small fraction of it.

dugite57
11-09-2004, 03:59 AM
Being an Australian, who's uncles fought (and one died)in NG on the Kokoda, I too would like to see this fixed. Be realy good to have the top end of Australia there as well, so we could have the attacks on Darwin and also fly missions from the mainland. Still, it is asking a lot.

csThor
11-09-2004, 07:18 AM
If I am not totally misinformed I think the current NG map is at the limits of what the engine can display. I mean it could display larger maps but no PC would be able to run them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Of course the choice of SE New Guinea seems odd as fighting there was not as prolonged as in the rest of the island, but IMO it's a compromise of wish and technical necessity. A map which included Port Moresby and Lae would be nice, but I don't think the engine can do that.

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 07:31 AM
Same here Dugite - both my granddads were apparently in a bit of the map we don't have [one was a field medic, other was recon/infantry]. My dads dad ended up with malaria, dysentery and hepatitis from his stay there, all at once, having to cart people around in blood and mud and filth.

I am sure if 1c were willing to compromise a little more on textures and geometry for the maps we might be able to get some bigger ones in there. Water on its own doesn't seem to take up a lot of memory, if any, as far as the engine is concerned.

chris455
11-09-2004, 08:17 AM
Engine limitations or no, the choice of the current New Guinea layout is understandable only in the context of USAAF involvement and that of the RAAF.

By forcing Milne bay in, we lose Lae, Salamaua, Wewak, Hollandia, Wau, and a host of other places on the North coast that effectively guts the chance for any meaningful USAAF campaign.

I'm glad that the Aussies were included, but couldn't the Mile Bay battles have been included as a seperate map, being tactically isolated from the rest of New Guinea as it was? As it is, all we have now for Japanese bases in the area is Buna and Dobodura.

This is what is responsible for the huge gap in the USAAF campaign- you go from early New Guinea to Japan! No North coast of New Guinea operations (this was the scene of the feircest struggles between USVAAF and the IJAAF) no Rabaul, no Shortlands, no Bougainville, Philipines,etc.

Until more maps appear, (if they do) I guess the Navy is definitely the way to go in this add-on. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

PS: To our Aussie friends, please don't take my Milne Bay comments in the wrong light, I feel the RAAF and RNZAF should have much greater representation in both A/C and maps than they currently do. Their contribution to victory in the Pacific was enormous.

csThor
11-09-2004, 08:58 AM
Clint. It's not about unwillingness of compromises (basically all maps are comprimises) but the lack of alternatives. The map building process is very long and painful and I think Ian can tell you quite a few stories about the dev tools for that (oh wait - he signed a NDA so he won't be able to tell http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Anyway when the Il-2 engine was made it was never planned to have external developers fooling around with the tools.

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
Clint. It's not about unwillingness of compromises (basically all maps _are_ comprimises) but the lack of alternatives. The map building process is very long and painful and I think Ian can tell you quite a few stories about the dev tools for that (oh wait - he signed a NDA so he won't be able to tell http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Anyway when the Il-2 engine was made it was never planned to have external developers fooling around with the tools. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couple of things immediately come to mind:

if the maps are generated from a bitmap/heightmap, then whatever is generating that can be told to tessellate the map with fewer polys, surely.

the 2-texture-layered ground could just as easily be not-2-textured ground.

Shoehorning things into a game is never fun, but geez, sometimes it seems like absolutely no effort was made at all here.

csThor
11-09-2004, 09:18 AM
You need to remember the initial Il-2 was designed with 7 sub-versions of said plane in mind. They never guessed they would turn out this juggernaut with over 200 planes and 2 1/2 theaters. It is my hope that Maddox Games has recognized this fundamental flaw of the engine and will keep that in mind when making the new engine.

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 09:23 AM
Yeah I agree. You see it the most when you see what happens when you switch texture compression on/off, and what happens in perfect mode and track the memory usage. It loads a massive grid of the terrain in at once, at full detail for the geometry/textures, even if that's never going to get drawn. This really hurts on big maps. I'm happy as long as something better comes along by BOB, but I'm also kind of mystified as to why more work on large map efficiency wasn't done -first thing- as soon as the project got started. It's not like it's some kind of super surprise that the pacific is a bit big :>

DRB_Hookech0
11-09-2004, 09:34 AM
Heck, most of the SWPTO operations area is missing, Bouganville, New Ireland, New Britian, Rabaul, Tokorina, Bunka, Buna, Empress Augusta Bay. These areas were pivitol to the Air War in the SWPacific and where a lot of the action of mid 43 to mid 44 took place.

I know some of these areas are too large for the map makers to use but if they could give us the important parts of these areas I for one would be happy.

Nige_Reconman
11-09-2004, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:


PS: To our Aussie friends, please don't take my Milne Bay comments in the wrong light, I feel the RAAF and RNZAF should have much greater representation in both A/C and maps than they currently do. Their contribution to victory in the Pacific was _enormous._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate none taken we know what you mean, Milne Bay was heavily contested area but in the grander scheme Rabaul etcetera were probably heavier areas of operations.

As an Aussie with family who fought, lived and died in the PNG campaigns i would like to see an expanded area of operations for all forces in PNG to represent the fullnes of the campaign.

And while i'm making outlandish requests a Hudson bomber too please.

We Aussies do appreciate Americas involvement in the defence of our homes during WW2 and their ultimate victory in the pacific something we simply didn't have the numbers/industry to do. Infact we owe so much to those pilots who fought in the coral sea and staved off the invasion we just couldn't let happen, that it's a debt that is probably, sadly, unrepayble and all we can offer is our humble thanks.

We are still a little cut up my MacArthurs treatment of our boys, so we tend to be a little harsh when it comes to the pacific theatre and when get omitted, time and time again from histories, booksd, movies etcetera we feel it's an injustice to our family who suffered so much. PNG wasn't as glamouous as other battles are made out to be, but it was defence of our homes and was some horrific fighting (also experienced by countless US troops as well).

The fact that any Australian content is in this game is joyous, so when you say Milne Bay isn't important we what you mean and we understand and mostly agree with it.

Yes more PNG maps/areas and campaign extensions would be most welcome, i imagine by all those playing Pacific Fighters

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 12:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nige_Reconman:
We are still a little cut up my MacArthurs treatment of our boys, so we tend to be a little harsh when it comes to the pacific theatre and when get omitted, time and time again from histories, booksd, movies etcetera we feel it's an injustice to our family who suffered so much. PNG wasn't as glamouous as other battles are made out to be, but it was defence of our homes and was some horrific fighting (also experienced by countless US troops as well).

The fact that any Australian content is in this game is joyous, so when you say Milne Bay isn't important we what you mean and we understand and mostly agree with it.

Yes more PNG maps/areas and campaign extensions would be most welcome, i imagine by all those playing Pacific Fighters <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup same here.

For more info this is about the most comprehensive single link with b/g info:
here (http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/ajrp2.nsf/5d7f819ab5cab102ca2565f400824fcc/404d5f488391d742ca256ea700157d47?OpenDocument)

Click around the site, there's an awful lot of documents [original photos, combat reports, etc] around in there.


The assault on the CMF forces stationed there without any kind of heavy weapons by fightin' mad japanese engineers in PNG was certainly something that could have gone pretty badly otherwise though, had they not held on the way they did.

But certainly the history of it all - Menzies and Curtin, pulling troops away from the ME, the fall of Singapore and the reaction to finding the country without much hope of immediate support, being told down the radio that whether you like it or not, we're now at war and everyone is going to have to help fight it - is something that probably makes it very present and real in the minds of those Australians who remember it. Which is getting to be a disappointingly few :<

Don't believe I screwed up spelling Curtin. Geez. And I managed to mung up the link too.

chris455
11-09-2004, 01:13 PM
"When Japanese officers pondered the opposition they faced from both Australia and New Zealand, they must have been painfully aware that they lacked similar allies to aid them in the Pacific ".
-Eric Bergerud, Fire in the Sky

You Aussies and Kiwis certainly have my gratitude. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Stiglr
11-09-2004, 01:16 PM
Try Target:Rabaul (http://www.targetware.net).

With the exception of Hollandia and possibly Wewak (just off the western edge of the map, which extends down to Guadalcanal, and includes all of eastern New Guinea, New Britain, Bougainville and the Solomons), this entire area is covered at 1:1 scale.

Nige_Reconman
11-09-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Try http://www.targetware.net.

With the exception of Hollandia and possibly Wewak (just off the western edge of the map, which extends down to Guadalcanal, and includes all of eastern New Guinea, New Britain, Bougainville and the Solomons), this entire area is covered at 1:1 scale. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are those targetware sims any good? Are they freeware or do you have to pay a subscription/fee etcetera? It looks interesting.

peterm1
11-09-2004, 01:50 PM
It is not clear to me how the PF 3D mapping system works. It is however a shame it is not like, say, MS FS. In that series of sim the ENTIRE WORLD is modelled at least at a basic level. Thus for example when flying CFS2 (set in the Pacific) I could never the less download (say) the Biggin Hill strip and take a spin around London. Of course London was not modelled very well but I could also download upgraded 3D meshes off the internet for most places in the world as well as textures for these places. The point however is this. Although the FS series did model the entire world it obviously did not LOAD the entire world everytime I logged onto the game. It had a system for managing maps so that portions were dynamically loaded as needed depending on the position of my aircraft. Shame this SIM cannot do soemthing similar - avoids problems with large maps.

ivankuturkokoff
11-09-2004, 02:11 PM
To include the whole of New Guinea would have been impossible. So a decision was made to include those most significant to the
Aussy fraternity in terms of the Air War. Thats Morseby and Milne bay. This choice also allowed Kokoda to be included (Hallowed ground to an Aussy).

For those that dont think Milne Bay was important then think about this. If Milne Bay had fallen Morseby would have been next, then the Australian mainland. Milne Bay and Morseby
are hugely significant battles to Australia. If you dont think so then go and do some reading in some non US/European centric history books.

Here is a Start: Milne Bay 1942 by Clive Baker and Greg Knight, ISBN 0-646-05405-8

Yes it would be nice to have the whole island but even FB/PF has limits http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

clint-ruin
11-09-2004, 02:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ivankuturkokoff:
To include the whole of New Guinea would have been impossible. So a decision was made to include those most significant to the
Aussy fraternity in terms of the Air War. Thats Morsbey and Milne bay. This choice also allowed Kokoda to be included (Hallowed ground to an Aussy). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Put it in perspective for the size issues:

The area of East New Guinea alone is as large as the Japanese archipelago without Kyushu Island, and that of east and west New Guinea together is more than twice as large as the whole of Japan. Some would argue that, considering the size of the island, it would have been impossible to prevent the enemy from freely choosing landing points and cornering the defending forces into a small area, a familiar tactic in island campaigns. In other words, it could be possible to shift the main battlefield and war front inland, and start a battle between land forces alone. However, large areas of inland New Guinea were covered with steep mountains and unexplored jungles. These circumstances made it impossible for groups of people to move about in inland areas. This means that warfare was conducted in the narrow coastal area and that the nature of the war inevitably became similar to that of a battle on a small island.

From 'ere (http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/ajrp2.nsf/aa9b3f3247a3c8ae4a25676300078dee/fdd87d873043dcd8ca256b84002024e9?OpenDocument) :>

Stiglr
11-09-2004, 02:45 PM
To Nige_Reconman

Right now, it's in beta and freeware. Eventually it will go subscription, rumored to be $10/month for not only :Rabaul, but all the other mods (Richthofen's Skies, Target:Korea, Target:Hanoi, Target:Tobruk and anything else that appears).

My opinion is that the Targetware flight modeling is far superior to this particular franchise, even with some features still in rough states. The IL-2 family has far better graphics, but Targetware is much more realistic.

Nige_Reconman
11-09-2004, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
To Nige_Reconman

Right now, it's in beta and freeware. Eventually it will go subscription, rumored to be $10/month for not only :Rabaul, but all the other mods (Richthofen's Skies, Target:Korea, Target:Hanoi, Target:Tobruk and anything else that appears).

My opinion is that the Targetware flight modeling is far superior to this particular franchise, even with some features still in rough states. The IL-2 family has far better graphics, but Targetware is much more realistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks mate i'm going to check it out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Atomic_Marten
11-09-2004, 03:01 PM
I'm in for New Guinea. Pretty important for Pacific battles.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
11-09-2004, 03:05 PM
you can use the new guinea map from July 1942 , the japanese landings at Buna to january43 , the allied recapture of Buna.

you can play the Kokoda campaign there, the defence of Milne Bay , the allied advance to Buna along the north coast . plenty of action.


and a additonal map of the northcoast from Buno to Lae/Finschhafen) , well, just a dream http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


as summary, after a very short dissapointing about the missing Lae (but that would realy to huge) im very satisfied witht his map http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

dragonhart38
11-09-2004, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DRB_Hookech0:
Heck, most of the SWPTO operations area is missing, Bouganville, New Ireland, New Britian, Rabaul, Tokorina, Bunka, Buna, Empress Augusta Bay. These areas were pivitol to the Air War in the SWPacific and where a lot of the action of mid 43 to mid 44 took place.

I know some of these areas are too large for the map makers to use but if they could give us the important parts of these areas I for one would be happy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree absolutely. This is very dissapointing. I find it very bad that these areas of ops that were so crucial to the war in the south Pacific are missing. To me it makes the game very incomplete. Even if the map would be too large to take all these areas in they could have and should have created smaller maps. For instance
one map could have the areas of Bouganville down to New Georgia, another from Rabaul to Bouganville and another perhaps from Rabaul to Port Moresby etc.

jazman777
11-09-2004, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nige_Reconman:
Yes more PNG maps/areas and campaign extensions would be most welcome, i imagine by all those playing Pacific Fighters <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Out-of-the-mainstream theatres and battles, and **** planes. Isn't that what the whole IL-2 series was all about? Of course we all would love more Aussie & Kiwi involvement.

LEXX_Luthor
11-09-2004, 07:43 PM
Stiglr how much are they going to sell the TargetWare software for? The FAQ says you can set up your own TargetWare on a LAN when the product is finished and ships. According to the FAQ, TargetWare will be far more than just signing up to fly at the the "official" TargetWare flying lobby.

Stiglr
11-09-2004, 08:14 PM
The software is free, but will have a monthly subscription. Far as I know, LAN flying isn't an option: you have to get onto the Targetware metaserver to join any server anyone decides to put out there.

As for "more than just the official TW server", that is true. Any person can host a server on the metaserver and do whatever he wants with it, including creating an entirely new mod.

Mozzie_21
11-09-2004, 09:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To our Aussie friends, please don't take my Milne Bay comments in the wrong light, I feel the RAAF and RNZAF should have much greater representation in both A/C and maps than they currently do. Their contribution to victory in the Pacific was _enormous._ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL No Australian would be offended by that. That would be un-Australian.

Our contribution to winning the war wasn't that great. We participated in the main fighting only in New Guinea and surrounds, after that we really only participated in mopping up-opperations.

HKLE
11-10-2004, 07:39 AM
Hi folks

Thanks for the lively discussion - and greetings from Austria to Australia :-)

k5054
11-10-2004, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When Japanese officers pondered the opposition they faced from both Australia and New Zealand, they must have been painfully aware that they lacked similar allies to aid them in the Pacific ".
-Eric Bergerud, Fire in the Sky
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone interested in the ground war should read Bergerud's other book, 'Touched by Fire'. It is WAY better than Fire in the sky IMO, and considering Bergerud is a Seppo, shows considerable appreciation for ANZAC forces.

Tater-SW-
11-10-2004, 09:20 AM
Here is a map I made with several variations of possible maps based upon the size of the current NG map. Note that there is no reason at all to constrain to a "north is up" mentality, the map can be turned any way we need to fit stuff.

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/SWPA.jpg

The "early Guadalcanal" map is pretty useless, it'd be better to show more of the slot. Particulalrly since outside the boundaries it's just water anyway, and iot is possible to place objects "off the map" in the FMB. This means you can do the same missions as the early map without actually having to have that map. In a few cases a tiny enlargement of the map might be able to include another whole island, always a good idea.

tater

Nige_Reconman
11-10-2004, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HKLE:
Hi folks

Thanks for the lively discussion - and greetings from Austria to Australia :-) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G'day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is a good book on Australians in New Guinea - A B*astard of a Place, recounts the strategic /tactical decisons triumphs and errorsof that campaign - mostly ground stuff but a fine read.

Stiglr
11-10-2004, 09:39 AM
Just by way of comparison...

http://www.naysayers.com/newNG.JPG

With one map this size, you don't have to deal with limitations of cut up maps, where your launch site(s) and your combat sites are on two or even three different minimaps. For instance, with PF, you can't fly a mission from Rabaul to Port Moresby...or Gasmata to Buna... etc., etc., but in Target:Rabaul all of it is possible (provided the planes themselves have the range). Including the long haul from Rabaul to Guadalcanal...but you don't actually have to fly the 3 hours each way; still your fuel state and recovery prospects will be reflected when you start a scenario, say, just off Savo Island or Tulagi. If you're in a Model 22 Zero, you better save a good portion of those fuselage tanks to make it back to Rabaul.

Tater-SW-
11-10-2004, 09:45 AM
Yeah, TR is far superior in this regard. The balkanized maps mean that it's impossible to have a single player campaign mode in PF that involves both offensive and defensive action except in brief time frames, or with CVs.

For multiplayer, it would require airstarts. TR has a great way of dealing with this with the disengagement radius that does a fuel check. BTW, Stiglr, I never figured out if TR calculates fuel leaks when doing this---if you hit disengagement range with enough gas, but a leak, do you still RTB (or are leaks not yet in the DM)?

tater

Stiglr
11-10-2004, 07:03 PM
Not sure if it calculates the minimized time you have remaining on the fuel.... although you'd think it would, since, depending on damage, you can get different rates of losing fuel. But, it is possible that it simply calculates based on your state when you hit the disengagement edge.

That's a good question! I do know that I've been damaged in a critical (larger) tank over Henderson and not made it back, even all leaned out and throttled back and rubbing my rabbit's foot.

Latico
11-10-2004, 07:48 PM
I haven't acquired PF as of yet, but I'm hoping that we will get many more maps than what I've seen so far.

As for those that will want to fly for the IJ side there is the Japanese thrust southward through the Phillipines that started 7 Dec 41. Of course for the IJ it really began several years earlier than that in Manchuria.

BTW, My dad was part of the landing invasion at Hollandia and later at Leyte. He's still alive and kickin, but doesn't remember a hell of allot about what all he did. He was with the US Army 80th Chem Morter Battalion. 24th Inf Div, I think.