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BSS_Goat
01-07-2005, 11:57 AM
I read that less than 5% of the pilots were aces but this 5% accounted for 40% of the planes downed. Pretty interesting IMHO. I quess some had it and some didnt.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif wish I had a link.....

CV8_Dudeness
01-07-2005, 12:00 PM
many pilots of the PTO went their entire tour WITHOUT seeing one single bandit

pilots got their kills thru opportunity IRL , we dont fly online like they did during WW2 , they had a life to keep , we dont

one Korean War Saber pilot who was interviewed by "Aeroplane" magazine said that he flew the wingman role his whole tour , he never got a kill & said the best Aces of that war all shared ONE thing in common

excellent eyesight

Daiichidoku
01-07-2005, 12:02 PM
Remember that approx 50%, likely even more than that, given JP tactics among others, of pilots were wingmen, and certainly did not get the chances the leaders did

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-07-2005, 12:11 PM
Similar to the 80/20 rule that applies to most things. Those guys obviously had the "right stuff".

I would definitely like to see a link..if you can manage to find it. That would be interesting.

TB

Chuck_Older
01-07-2005, 12:13 PM
Not even John Boyd got a real confirmed kill

If you took Michael Jordan out of his 'world' and he grew up in some village in Africa that never had contact with much form the western world, he never could have become an NBA star

Think about this: statistically, the best racing talent today must be living in China- and probably has never driven a car in his or her life

BSS_Goat
01-07-2005, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
I would definitely like to see a link..if you can manage to find it. That would be interesting.
TB <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll look and try to post it later....

berg417448
01-07-2005, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
I read that less than 5% of the pilots were aces but this 5% accounted for 40% of the planes downed. Pretty interesting IMHO. I quess some had it and some didnt.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif wish I had a link..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read Dave Grossman's book "On Killing" and you will see similar things discussed. For example..out of 100 men in a WWII battle, often only 15-20 would actually "take any part with their weapons."

JG7_Rall
01-07-2005, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Not even John Boyd got a real confirmed kill

If you took Michael Jordan out of his 'world' and he grew up in some village in Africa that never had contact with much form the western world, he never could have become an NBA star

Think about this: statistically, the best racing talent today must be living in China- and probably has never driven a car in his or her life <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, I see we share the same logic when it comes to these sorts of things. There are plenty of people who are great at whatever but have yet to be discovered/discover it for themselves.

BSS_Goat
01-07-2005, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall: There are plenty of people who are great at whatever but have yet to be discovered/discover it for themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shoulda been a porn star http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Ya'll dont know what your missing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Udidtoo
01-07-2005, 12:44 PM
That 15% or less that actually perform well isn't just a recent times phenom. There is an account of a rifle that was picked up off of the field following Picketts Charge during the Battle of Getteysburg during our American civil war that had if I recall correctly 16 charges packed 1 on top of the other. The terrified and or excited guy just kept ramming in another round but never disgharged the weapon. Had he done so after 5 or 6 it would have been like holding a grenade at arms length.

From rounds issued and rounds expended it estimated by some "experts" that for every bullet that found a mark 249 were misses. Couple that with the extremely high casualty rate suffered by both sides and it would appear that a few men with cool heads steady aim and the ruthlessness needed to carry on killed an almost unimaginable amount of the enemy. I'm no mathamatician but even accounting for cannister and grape shot taking the horrible toll it dealt among massed infantry. around 10 or 15 % of those solders accounted for a lot of slain enemies.

edit..Another thing that can be factored in concerning pilots, particulerly WWI pilots was the fact that a high percentage of them grew up hunting. They didn't need to learn the art of deflection shooting, they had been doing it since they were children.

Von_Zero
01-07-2005, 01:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall: There are plenty of people who are great at whatever but have yet to be discovered/discover it for themselves. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shoulda been a porn star http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Ya'll dont know what your missing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You can write "porn" but you can't write c r a p ??? Geez where are these filters going to? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

horseback
01-07-2005, 02:07 PM
It's true that only 5% did half or more of the scoring in WWII and Korea, but not all of that statistic is due purely to position & opportunity. At least in US & British units, the initial victories were usually obtained by the group or squadron leaders (Rank Hath Its Privileges, or RHIP), but things quickly sorted themselves out after the initial clashes, and talent revealed itself. That is how a Flying Officer (enlisted man) like Chuck Yeager or Sergeant Pilot like Ginger Lacy could establish himself as one of the 'shooters' in his group, or a junior lieutenant with a disfunctional personality like Tom McGuire could accumulate so many kills. There were a few outstanding fighter leaders who weren't particularly effective 'shooters' but did know how to lead men in combat who had far more opportunities than kills.

As for ground combat, it is my understanding that in the initial combat, only 10-15% actually fire their weapons. After that, the survivors tend to figure out that they need to use their weapons to keep on living, and start to do so in progressively greater numbers. Something like 80% of all ground combat casualties occurred in the first week or so of the individual's being in combat, and this may well be a factor.

Elite, or highly trained units like the USMC or the original US paratroops(these are examples I am aware of - not a slam on other countries' soldiers), had a much higher percentage of effective 'shooters' right from the start, so a certain amount of what we like to think of as civilization can be 'trained out' of most Western males.

Cultures with less of a premium on polite behavior (or a different definition of 'polite behavior') have not been quantified in this regard, to my knowledge. I suspect that the soldiers of Imperial Japanese Army had fewer problems with timidity or shock in their initial combats than their American or European counterparts. Certainly their reputation seems to support this.

cheers

horseback

womenfly
01-07-2005, 02:26 PM
Don't forget about a very, very, small percentage of Russian Women pilots who downed German aircraft. If you look at the number of them and their kills the ratio would far exceed the 5% mark.
Very good reading if your interested on Russian Women pilots and the hardships they had to indure.
http://www.thaiwave.com/hwelte/
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/litvak/litvak.htm

Would anyone like to make a skin of Lilya Litvak's Yak-1b, call-code 'yellow 44" for me?

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/raskov5.jpg

73GIAP_Milan
01-07-2005, 02:30 PM
Would anyone like to make a skin of Lilya Litvak's Yak-1b, call-code 'yellow 44" for me?

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto1/raskov5.jpg [/QUOTE]

That would be cool, i'd like to join this request as i'm the commander of a squadron dedicated to Litvak http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Our skins are selfmade and i think, don't come close to what they were for real..

berg417448
01-07-2005, 02:31 PM
Here is a link with some information on this subject from Grossman:

http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm

PBNA-Boosher
01-07-2005, 04:12 PM
Womenfly....

You're not the only fan of the 586 IAP, 125th GvBAP, and 46th GvNBAP here! I have Lilya's Yellow 44 skin for her Yak-1. E-mail me at boosh at kbuch.com and I'll send it to you.

Oh: The yak in the Picture is a Yak-1 Late model from mid-late 1941. Lilya's Yak-1b was "White 23" and supposedly had a white lily painted onto its sides. I have that skin as well if you'd like it. I also made a Litvyak pilot skin.

I agree that the times the Female pilots of the VVS endured were hard, but don't forget that the male units were living right alongside them, and were suffering the same hardships they were. Each gender dealt with it differently. Also keep in mind that of the 3 air squadrons in the 586 IAP, 1 was male, and in the 125th GvBAP, which flew in Pe-2's, men mostly manned the gunner positions.

Also, the 586 IAP was an Air Defense regiment. This means their job was to see that Russia had air superiority over their target areas. For example, they might be asked to escort important leaders. Tamara Pamyantkh escorted Krushchev himself flying her Yak-7 fighter during 1943. Poor old Krushy was so shocked that women pilots stepped out of the Yak fighters that he asked: "Where did the pilots go?" Their main job was to protect bridges and factories. Their kill count total for their squadron was only between 30-40, I believe, I don't know the official # because I lent out my book. This low number of kills, of course, was not due to lack of skill, but rather to their assignment. Their job was to protect areas, not to down fighters.

Arms1
01-07-2005, 04:44 PM
the only time my father saw (or didnt see) the enemy was on his first op when he was shot down, from my research most likely by Bazi Weiss fortunately for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he went on to complete 180 operational hours during ww2

horseback
01-07-2005, 05:23 PM
Flying combat aircraft is extremely demanding physically and requires an innate ability to judge speeds and distances closely, both of which qualities are found more readily among males than females, according to all the data I have seen. This does not mean that there are no women who can competently fly combat aircraft, but that there are fewer of them per capita, especially when the culture doesn't exactly encourage the desire to fly, or the kind of ambition required to persevere in an elite field (and make no mistake; becoming a pilot in most nations' combatant aircraft makes you a member of an elite group, and always has). I'm not just speaking of the arm strength required to haul back on the stick, but of the strength needed to hold your head up and track an enemy aircraft while pulling 2 or 3 Gs and maintaining precise control of your own aircraft.

Up until the last 20 years, these aircraft often required a lot more brute strength than most women were likely to possess, and WWII fighters required a degree of upper body strength that many men lacked (Francis Gabreski's memoir notes that he was told by his squadron commander that he was a marginal pilot because he lacked the necessary upper body strength just before Pearl Harbor-he immediately started working to build up his strength, and went on to become the leading USAAF fighter pilot in the ETO).

The female fighter pilots of the Soviet Union were generally exceptional for females in the population in the necessary abilities and motivation to serve their country in that way and in that time, but they suffered greater casualty rates than the male fighter pilots they served with, and were not, as a group, generally thought of as being as good as their male counterparts at the task.

There were certainly exceptions, but the Soviets apparently came to the conclusion that women were not a sufficiently large enough source of competent fighter and attack pilots to justify the costs of locating and training them, because there were no (or at least very, very few) female fighter pilots in the Soviet Air Forces post war into the modern era.

The entry of women into the modern US military's combat air arms has more to do, in my opinion, with the politics of the Women's Rights movement than with the hordes of qualified and motivated young women clamoring to wear their country's wings. The programs are necessarily demanding enough that the young women now wearing those wings are qualified to do so (especially after the scandals involving a few of the first females allowed to fly the more demanding Navy fighters), but one has to wonder how many better qualified males were passed over to provide a place for the ladies.

Yeah, I'm probably a sexist pig, but the truth is rarely politically correct.

cheers

horseback

stelr
01-07-2005, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by berg417448:
Here is a link with some information on this subject from Grossman:

http://www.killology.com/article_agress&viol.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Grossman's opinions would have more credibility with me if he were a vetern of combat himself. Keep in mind, he has an agenda WRT pimping himself to the community of folks that want to eliminate "violent" games being sold to young adults. He makes alot of $$ traveling to such groups and passing himself off as an expert on killing and violence.

Just my $.02

Arms1
01-07-2005, 06:48 PM
ouch

civildog
01-07-2005, 11:59 PM
Let us not forget the contribution of the almost exclusively female pilots who flew the Po-2 biplanes at night, hedge-hopping over German lines to bomb the rear-area supply dumps, artillery positions, and railyards. What the Germans called the "NachtHexen."

They also helped to resupply partisans behind enemy lines and locate downed pilots for rescue by the partisans.

And nobody has even mentioned the large numbers of Russian women who fought on the front lines as snipers, scouts, even as infantry. An exceptional burden was borne by Soviet women. By 1945 over half the workforce was female, and on the land, more than four-fifths. Women fought in their thousands in the Soviet armed forces as pilots, sharpshooters, even tank commanders. Many women joined the partisan movement operating behind the German lines - and by 1943 there were an estimated 300,000 of them. They constantly harried German troops, and were themselves the victim of harsh punitive expeditions, which led to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent villagers along with the partisan bands.

Here's a good link that includes pics

//wb586iap.r2.ru/soviet_woman_vvs.htm


And here: //wb586iap.r2.ru/nachthexen.htm

Overall, I'd say (upper body strength or not) these women kicked the Hun's rear for their country and we owe them a huge amount of gratitude. Dunno about any of you but I doubt I'd have the ****** to fly in the dark in a boxkite to bomb a supply dump while nightfighters and searchlights are trying catch me.

Here is a pic of the Orlav's: Guards Lt. Vera Orlova in command, while Guards Lt. Nikolai Orlov is the driver. They bought the ISU-122 behind them with their own money and fought through the war as a team. Pretty impressive I'd say. Might have been some interesting "discussions" in the tank: "I told you to ask for directions back at Kharkov! But noooo, 'I know how to get to Berlin' you say...and now where are we? France!!!! Men never want to ask for directions, I'm going to go ask that Yankee over there how to get to Berlin and that's that!"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/civildog/ISU122Orlavs.jpg

civildog
01-08-2005, 12:09 AM
And for your further edification, a reading list:

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/SLCUYN2GK0XC/103-7228524-1972604 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/SLCUYN2GK0XC/103-7228524-1972604)

womenfly
01-08-2005, 08:13 AM
Hi,

Well reading all the responses reminds me of all the life long views that the world has on women in certain positions .... don't even go there with this comment boy's.

I am a mechanical engineer, a pilot, built a homebuilt airplane and test flew it on the very first flight I might add, ride a Harley Softail, a mom and more ... all in a man dominated world.

I would like to see more credit given to women, especially in games like this. Look how long it took the US government to honor the WASP's from WW-2 ... many years later. We do our part with very little or no credit at all.

I love flying and this game. Many thanks to thoughts of you that support us .... thoughts that have issues with it .... try living without us!

Thanks to all the women that served and gave their life to defend what they believed in, God bless you all.

Womenfly2
http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice//nov18_08.jpg

My Pietenpol AirCamper with Ford Model-A engine, 8-years of building,

huggy87
01-08-2005, 09:41 AM
Womenfly,
Let me get this straight. You want more credit for women, ie. making a big deal of their accomplishments just because they were women. But, you also want to be treated the same as men. Doesn't quite make sense to me, but I have given up on understanding women anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif