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Sillius_Sodus
04-08-2010, 11:46 AM
Hi,

I've pretty well figured out how to fly the P-38 against Japanese fighters but I'm wondering if there are any other tips regarding flying against LW fighters.

As is mentioned many times on the forum, a fast, shallow climb works well against most Japanese aircraft but 109's and 190's are much faster and will catch up to the -38.

Just wonderin'...

Thanks.

Jumoschwanz
04-08-2010, 12:23 PM
I don't think you want to mess with them unless you have a healthy energy advantage.

I have flown "blue", mostly bf109s and FW190s for a long time, and I am always thrilled to see a P-38 come along, it is a free lunch.

I was flying the P-38J against a couple of FW190A5s on Spits_vs_109s recently though. I made sure I had the energy advantage then I just flew at them and took a shot then zoomed back up. I got one of them and the other ran for home, I figured that was as well as I was going to do.

I would not be afraid to attack a 190A and fight it in a duel at low speed, but I would not recommend it to others unless you have great confidence or can get the first hit in.

There just is not much the P-38 can do that some Luftwaffe fighter can not, if anything.

What doubles the P-38s problem is that it is a HUGE easily damaged target.

No charge for the pep-talk!

TheGrunch
04-08-2010, 12:49 PM
What do you think about the impending 4.10 G-limitations, Jumo? Think it'll change your flying style much?
I reckon the P-38 is going get a lot more competitive if it ever stops getting such a tough ride compared to everyone else with regard to compressibility. Maybe in 4.11+ as FatCat hinted.
As it is it's very much a hit once and then run for it fighter if you're me. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's got nothing on the 190 in terms of manoeuverability (particularly roll rate), although depending on the altitude and the 190 in question it may have a decent speed advantage (only against Antons, though).
Against the 190D you don't really hold any of the cards, I'm afraid.
Against the 109 it really rather depends on the model as ever for speed advantage or lack thereof. It's worth bearing in mind that you may have a speed advantage in the sense that you can run at a higher speed without destroying your engine for longer, and at least you'll not be quite as heavily outclassed in dive-manoeuverability or roll rate.
Like Jumo says it's a big massive target that the points-hoes salivate over for a double-score.

JtD
04-08-2010, 01:04 PM
The P-38J can dogfight 190ies, even though I personally consider dogfights too risky in general. For practice, get onto the 6 of one and check if he can do anything to get rid of you. It's pretty darn hard, if not impossible. You can also outrun them at high altitude and at around 3000 meters, so that's where you should be flying at, climbing to or diving to.

Against the 109G-6, you can also do a bit of dogfighting and come out on top, but here you need to be the better pilot. Against other 109's I wouldn't really recommend even trying, just enter a shallow dive and get away. Unless you're at 8000meters and aren't up against a G-2, G-10 or K-4.

Eventually, I'd recommend to do the usual thing - hit and run from superior position, but try to hit at medium speed, the heavy elevator makes high speed passes a matter of luck.

On the defense, altitude is your friend, there are only a very few planes that can catch the P-38 at 8000m or above. In fact, the only Luftwaffe planes that can fly faster than the P-38J at that altitude are the K-4 and the D-9. And they'll be hard pressed to do that sustained, as the P-38 has little tendency to overheat at high speed.

Also on the defense, attack. It's amazing from what situations a P-38 can bring the guns to bear, it has an excellent low speed stability, so you can pull some maneuvers single engined fighters can not do as easily. And then you're packing a punch, which also has high precision. So just because a guy is high above you climbing away, doesn't mean he's safe.

The P-38J is my personal favorite, it certainly has the best relative performance of the 38 series, compared to contemporary enemies, but the L series has one of the best roll rates in game. So in these, in particular if followed by a 109, you can dive, pick up a good speed, roll 180, drop the dive brakes and pull out of the dive where the 109 hasn't even completed the roll.

Romanator21
04-08-2010, 03:36 PM
The P-38 in my experience outclasses the Bf-109 almost always. The J and L late are the fastest, and so I haven't used the L early very much. The guns tear stuff up easily, and there is a lot of ammo too.

The P-38 is a better contender on the closed pit servers I find. Unless pilots have good SA, the P-38 can just make a sneaky zoom. Compressibility is never a problem, just drop one increment of flaps in the P-38 J to assist the pull out.

I find the climb rate of the P-38s is pretty nice, and visibility is great except to the sides. Just bank periodically to clear those blind spots. All in all, I feel very secure in that plane and I prefer it over the Spitfire any day. Still, I would rather take a Mustang in most situations. Historically, the P-38 never did well in Europe, but was a fantastic aircraft in the Pacific and decent in the Mediterranean.

DKoor
04-08-2010, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Sillius_Sodus:
Hi,

I've pretty well figured out how to fly the P-38 against Japanese fighters but I'm wondering if there are any other tips regarding flying against LW fighters.

As is mentioned many times on the forum, a fast, shallow climb works well against most Japanese aircraft but 109's and 190's are much faster and will catch up to the -38.

Just wonderin'...

Thanks.
1.Never EVER fly with Christmas trees under wings or any kind of load for that matter (bombs after they are released wont impact your performance but what are you doing with them in the first place? And besides sometimes you will forget to release them; don't laugh - it happens.)

2.Fuel. Don't use anything more than 50%, in most cases 25% fuel will outfly 109s in terms of the flight range. So much for that. And your 38 will climb like a rocket not to mention overall maneuverability.

Jumo speaks about P-38J... in fact that is one cute monster of its time and can handle FW's in fair fight, however 109's of a time are another story pretty much reversed one as JtD pointed out. P-38J is hot, P-38L is not... you can fight in 38J on equal terms however in 38L or LATE in average combat you must be much better pilot to come out on top in equal fight.

Contemporary FW-190A9 or FW-190D9 are both besting P-38L_LATE in many of important agility performance points, too many to expect something from equal fight.
FW-190A8 is on par or subtly inferior to L_LATE... I'd say it is on par with vanilla L.
But FWs have monster mean guns so their tactic vs you (at least those smart ones) will always be head on, they will rake you up every time this way.

Versus 109s of the era, be it G14, G10, G6AS or K4 you can't expect anything other than biting the dust on pretty much regular basis as those are more agile than FW-190s in a classic dogfight.

DKoor
04-08-2010, 04:03 PM
BTW here is quite cool track of 38 dogfighting the 190...

http://www.esnips.com/doc/0939...38l_jina9_wc_409b1mm (http://www.esnips.com/doc/093970c8-aae4-4f18-ade1-fd158e8a8cd1/dkoor38l_jina9_wc_409b1mm)

...however it requires modded may-bug Slovakia winter map, you can find the link there.

BillSwagger
04-08-2010, 04:25 PM
The P-38 never really got a fair shake and is heavily neutered because of its compressibility model. It seems to respond at 10,000ft as though it were at 20,000ft.

Isn't the critical mach something ridiculously low like 0.67?

Speed of sound at 10,000ft would be ~1182 kph, (735 mph), so the P-38 should reach critical mach at ~792kph (492mph) but it seems it loses elevator response much sooner than that, and the effect can actually carry on until you've met the ground.

It probably could be a more effective plane in game if it were modeled a bit better in that regard, otherwise i also think of it as cannon fodder, but there are some who know how to exploit its strengths quite nicely.


Bill

TinyTim
04-08-2010, 04:48 PM
In my experience, the alcoholic 109s are your worst nightmare, since they can do almost everything better than you can - when dueling 1v1 that is. He is faster, faster climbing, more maneouverable in general, smaller target, similar diver. Anything you can do, he can do it at least comparably good if not better. With 108 it can be over quickly. You do have a boosted ailerons, but that's in only one version, and only comes into play at high speeds, and even this is still hard to transform into any kind of useful advantage.

Multi vs Multi I find Fockes to be more dangerous, but at least you have some hope 1v1 since you have climb and low speed agility/stability.

Erkki_M
04-08-2010, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:
The P-38 in my experience outclasses the Bf-109 almost always. The J and L late are the fastest, and so I haven't used the L early very much. The guns tear stuff up easily, and there is a lot of ammo too.

The P-38 is a better contender on the closed pit servers I find. Unless pilots have good SA, the P-38 can just make a sneaky zoom. Compressibility is never a problem, just drop one increment of flaps in the P-38 J to assist the pull out.

I find the climb rate of the P-38s is pretty nice, and visibility is great except to the sides. Just bank periodically to clear those blind spots. All in all, I feel very secure in that plane and I prefer it over the Spitfire any day. Still, I would rather take a Mustang in most situations. Historically, the P-38 never did well in Europe, but was a fantastic aircraft in the Pacific and decent in the Mediterranean.

With closed pit you must mean no externals? I too find the P38 a much more potential threat and a tool than the Spitfire V, though VIII and IX, despite them being a bit slower(depending on model though), superior.

You are reasonably safe vs. 109F and G2/6 as well as FW190A4 as long as you dont merge with them(you can do well against an FW though), but the rest of them are too much. Bf 109 G10/14, G6AS, K, 190A5-D9 simply do everything better - vs. A5-A8 FWs you still turn and climb better but that will only work 1 vs 1. Also remember that an FW pilot can burn his energy and play for one bad firing solution; with its weaponry its more than enough.

Flying alone it can be hard to achieve much at all(though this goes to almost any plane, however in P38 you dont have the little survivability the Spit has in close-in knife fights), but with a wingman or or two you can achieve easy kills safer and quicker than in Spitfires, and against more skilled and organised opponents you are less likely to find yourselves in a situation where the only option left is to keep turning - and burning altitude.

Ki43, A6M, Ki61 and N1K2 are almost pure deflection shooting practice targets though.

Frankthetank36
04-09-2010, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
The P-38J can dogfight 190ies, even though I personally consider dogfights too risky in general. For practice, get onto the 6 of one and check if he can do anything to get rid of you. It's pretty darn hard, if not impossible.

They can roll all over the place and you will never be able to get your wings parallel to theirs for a good shot thanks to the P-38's horrendous roll rate. Meanwhile you will find yourself getting dragged closer and closer to their base.

JtD
04-09-2010, 08:53 AM
I don't think it is necessary to have my wings parallel to the wings of my target for a hit. Maybe my accuracy suffers, but then the -38 has plenty of ammo. Rolling alone will not help.

Jumoschwanz
04-09-2010, 10:45 AM
You can also look for WarbirdsOfPrey "crippled history" maps, where the hosting allied squads make sure that the axis plane set can not compete with the P-38.

For instance on one desert map the only 190A available was the 1942 A4 version set up for bomb carrying with it's lower top speed vs. the 1943 P38, they would not let you take the pure fighter version.
They also had on another map one time the 190F as the only available 190....

So if you want to go to allied or P-38 "fantasy land", then WarbirdsofPrey may be the place for you.

WarClouds has a lot more balls, offering the 1944 plane set on it's maps with no creative interpretation, so you can fly your P-38 vs. Doras and all the late 109s with 30mm cannons. If you can make it back to base from hitting a target there when the server is crowded I will give you a pat on the back.

JtD
04-09-2010, 12:09 PM
How is the availability of Doras and all late war 109's with 30mm cannons in 1944 not a creative interpretation? And why does it take more "balls" for a server to offer the same boring unrealistic plane set again and again and again? And why would it be unfair to fly a 190F vs. a P-38 while it is fair to fly a P-38 vs. a 190D?

Erkki_M
04-09-2010, 02:56 PM
JtD, they arent, but dont you think FW190F8(500kmph) vs. Spitfire IX, P51D is? How about that allies can have all the fancy late war monster planes, including spit 25lbs, and best blues have is FW190A8?

Of course, they also "forgot" to give the only blue airfield more flak than two heavy guns.

Thats the HL's "premium FR server". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JtD
04-09-2010, 04:18 PM
F-8 does 578 on the deck. The fastest Spit IX does 540, if you get the radiator to not be wide open. I don't have a problem with that setup, in fact I know I enjoy it. P-51 is always trouble for an radial engined FW, wouldn't know why D vs. F-8 would stand out.

You guys know that you can run the F-8 on 100% manual pitch for a considerable performance boost?

And I also don't think that A-8 vs. Spit IX 25 is a very one sided match up. Speedwise, it is very close, Spit has climb and turn, Fw dive and firepower. 1 vs 1 would suck, but as a some vs. some it's quite alright. Tempest would be a problem, though. Might be a good idea to climb into the 109 for that mission. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Which one is available?

Eventually, I think it is the externals off server I've spend the most time on, there were some maps that had unfortunate plane setups, but it went both ways, and most of the maps were great. So of course one can go on and list the unfair ones, in particular the ones unfair to blue, but I doubt that there's a general problem. I know there wasn't a couple of years back.

K_Freddie
04-10-2010, 04:01 PM
In a Fw190 (any type) I find the P38 'easy breakfast', except for the 'experten' who use speed. When in a P38 this is exactly the way I fly against most a/c. Hit hard.. and run like hell, with a gentle weave if followed.

The P38 can take a fair amount of damage, but the weak spots are the rear stabilser, and any engine.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Sillius_Sodus
04-11-2010, 11:58 PM
Thanks for all the tips gents, very informative http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

Christos_swc
04-12-2010, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
The P-38J can dogfight 190ies, even though I personally consider dogfights too risky in general. For practice, get onto the 6 of one and check if he can do anything to get rid of you. It's pretty darn hard, if not impossible. You can also outrun them at high altitude and at around 3000 meters, so that's where you should be flying at, climbing to or diving to.

Against the 109G-6, you can also do a bit of dogfighting and come out on top, but here you need to be the better pilot. Against other 109's I wouldn't really recommend even trying, just enter a shallow dive and get away. Unless you're at 8000meters and aren't up against a G-2, G-10 or K-4.


I'm not much of a dogfighter and the P-38 is the only ac I've managed to outturn and shoot down in my FW.
A FW can can shake you off your six pretty easily.
Fake a turn in one direction and then roll quickly and dive away in the other direction then go into a diving turn to keep the speed above 400Km/h.
If you insist on engaging the FW will end up on your six real quick and without too much hassle.
You can't follow the roll so you won't be scoring any lucky deflection shots and once he's out of your site all he has to do is turn tighter and keep the speed reasonably high.
At low level I have yet to encounter a P-38 but I guess some rolling scissors should do the trick.

Gadje
04-12-2010, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Christos_swc:

I'm not much of a dogfighter and the P-38 is the only ac I've managed to outturn and shoot down in my FW.
A FW can can shake you off your six pretty easily.


I think your fighting ground attack pilots then. If a fighter pilot who knows the p38 meets you co-E and your in a mid war Anton you have a hard time ahead.

Our squad run 6v6 matchups on HL between well matched planes and the A-5 v P38J is always close, both have won.

JtD summed up the P38 as a fighter correctly I think.

Christos_swc
04-12-2010, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Christos_swc:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gadje:

I think your fighting ground attack pilots then. If a fighter pilot who knows the p38 meets you co-E and your in a mid war Anton you have a hard time ahead.

Our squad run 6v6 matchups on HL between well matched planes and the A-5 v P38J is always close, both have won.

JtD summed up the P38 as a fighter correctly I think.

The words "dogfighting" and "hard time getting him off your six" were mentioned specifically and I replied on those grounds.
Also multiplayer tactics are irrelevant here, we're talking one on one ac match ups.
The FW can turn as tight as a P38 at low speed and much tighter at high speed and is greatly superior in roll rate.
If you think you can stay on his six then fine with me.
As previously mentioned by FW pilots,the P38 is a "beautiful" opponent to come up against, "lunch".
You can disregard my opinion on the matter but at the same time those written before me by other pilots as well.
By the way I've yet to meet a P-38 pilot flying at low level.
So unless he actually spots a FW hugging the ground he's gonna have a hard time downing it since it can trade alt for speed and fly rings round the P-38 at high speed.
Of course you can always zoom climb and have another go but that's hardly staying on his six.
As for the "rolling alone will not help" mentioned by jtd earlier, well, that's a difference between the other planes and FWs.
Anyone can put a good turn rate to good use,only experienced pilots know what to do with a FW's roll rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JtD
04-15-2010, 10:00 AM
As I've said elsewhere before, I'm usually fighter bombing, that's true for the P-38, too, and it's one of the safest rides around. I frequently succeed in shooting folks that bounce me during the bomb run, even at 1 vs. 2 odds. And not everyone I'm up against is a knob. Best I got recently were 6 kills in one sortie. So I'd say it's not hopeless.

And regarding the good roll rate of the 190, at higher speeds the P-38L is better. So feel free to keep the speed up and roll, won't help at all. Against the J it's good, though.