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View Full Version : Could this fight be duplicated with the il-2 mustang



norton1974
10-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Could you do what this guy describes with the il-2 mustang, he does say he got hits on the 109.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...RuJI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkaTGSpRuJI&feature=related)

DKoor
10-08-2009, 01:41 PM
Sure why not... problem is, you have to be better pilot, much better pilot than your opponent in the same manner Clayton was superior to his opponent... he had much luck & skill on his side, if only few shells hit his Mustang I'm afraid this video would never be recorded... I bet he has creeps every time he recollects this.

P-51 is inferior in lufberry tactic to a 109, be sure! That is not only the case in this game but also in real life too... I watched some vids where people claimed 109F to be more agile machine to a Spitfire... poeple that were flying that 109 - and overall a 109 to be very, very agile machine. But of course you need to know how to use it properly or all its good chars are in vein.

I'll try to google that vid.

But make no mistake - Clayton is exceptional pilot... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

DKoor
10-08-2009, 01:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFl8X4y9-94

Here you can view this interview with Skip Holm.
I don't say that this is gospel... but sure this man doesn't looks like he's BS'ing.
I think he is honest... big plus is that he actually flew those planes.

Also take into account that P-51 carries A LOT of fuel, so if you load it with low amount of fuel its aerobatic chars are improved that is for sure...

muffinstomp
10-08-2009, 01:52 PM
I'm off digesting the editor's horrible mix of 109 E-type, FW-190 being hit, shoulder look over what appears to be a 109 trainer mix up only for the sake of delivering images.
Man they are ruining a vet's story plus suggest wrong pictures of a tactical situation developing while Gross is trying to tell us with the mere help of his hands.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Greets,
muffinstomp

doraemil
10-09-2009, 05:04 PM
.50 Cals are Porked!! or 109 cheat mod

Clayton Posted Fri April 01 1943 13:14

I got behind this guy on a descending course, and I opened fire on him and got a number of hits on his wings and fusalge. And he broke hard up . . . instead of breaking up.

I have ntrk, but they are out of order. Don't pay attention to the Emil one, that was something else.


+


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB6ka32iTbU#t=4m51s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB6ka32iTbU#t=7m18s



I think its doable. But its harder since P-51 are more agile than any german fighter.

j/k
... .

I think so yes,

As Dkoor said its alot on the pilot's skill. Clayton did surprise, is skilled (he BnZ), and



He must be super thankful and you can tell he just wanted to go home as he let the 109 dive away at the end.

I wonder if the veterans also had a gut instinct or some honed sense of "ok, time to quit and make it home"

Can you imagine him being bugged on how the 109 pulled that manuever? Bugged for many years . . .

Like how you hear a song and you know the name but can't recall it and it bugs you the whole day until you can go home to your vinyl collection and look it up or google it (sans internet ready cells)

Greatshadow1995
10-13-2009, 04:08 AM
Loved the videos Doraemil. I think I'll look for a few tricks from vids like that for a while...

DKoor
10-13-2009, 06:00 AM
The fact that the fights that are constantly pulled online low level twitching and turning are basically the type of fights where you either destroy your opponent or your opponent destroy you.

I bet the boys fighting in WW2 didn't like that much.

Therefore it is nice to have more agile plane on lower speeds but it is questionable where, when or if you ever get to exploit that vs enemy planes. In western theater those fights were, from almost anything I've read so far fought on significant altitudes (when compared to other theaters) where the speeds by default are great high if you go sharp climbing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .

Anyway... some people will dismiss IL-2's P-51 as crap plane in comparison to other late war arsenal but truth is in all my time flying on late war ETO dedicated servers (most notable WarClouds) the type I feared most in German fighters was precisely the P-51.
Be it because of the good pilots that exploited laminar flow wings for great speeds, be it because the P-51 really doesn't suck or because my skills in German fighters aren't the great as I want them to be... but the P-51 in the hands of a good online players are lethal.

Wildnoob
10-13-2009, 09:33 AM
Folks, I was ready to open a tread about this, but instead gonna ask it here.

I already heard pilot's comments that the Mustang could outturn the BF-109 at high altitude.

Never try do this at the sim, as unfortenetely never figth human oponents at such situation.

So I'd like to ask please; this was a fact in RL and it is represented in IL2?

HayateAce
10-13-2009, 09:55 AM
I will maintain that for the P51D, something is off in regards to the CoG. Basically, that aircraft is hampered with the EFFECT of having a full fuselage fuel tank. Yes, I know all the arguments about the limitations of IL2 modeling and yadda, yadda. If the game has limitations in this area, don't impose those limitations onto select aircraft such as the 51D. No Mustang pilot would choose to go into combat without burning off the fuse tank to at least 25% or less.

Now, if you want to have a blast and actually be able to be competitive in the P51, I suggest joining the Skies of Valor server and wait for a map called "Italian Stallions" or some such. It's basically a knock-down fight between P51C's and Bf109s. I've flown the map about 6 times now, and the outcomes are MUCH more like real life accounts. Flown correctly, the Mustang holds a nice E advantage and if you keep the fight fast the high speed maneuverability really shines.

I've thought this for a long time, but without the wild card of the Fw190, the contest is much more interesting and engaging for the red team. The no-look, no-aim, insta-death magic gunz of the 190 are really quite a yawn for me. Way more fun when each side has to actually earn their kills. As for the P51C, you only get 4x.50's, but again without the 190's overly simplified DM to contend with, a good marksman can wreak plenty of havoc on the 109.

Well, I've typed out quite the endorsement here, but if you want to replicate some exciting P51 vs 109 action check out the Skies of Valor server. Hats off to the FS guys for coming up with this gem.

Erkki_M
10-13-2009, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Wildnoob:
Folks, I was ready to open a tread about this, but instead gonna ask it here.

I already heard pilot's comments that the Mustang could outturn the BF-109 at high altitude.

Never try do this at the sim, as unfortenetely never figth human oponents at such situation.

So I'd like to ask please; this was a fact in RL and it is represented in IL2?

P-51, especially B, C and Mustang III, can outturn all 109's but the F4 and G2 rather easily... In many ways the P-51 is similar to the Yaks and FW190(and the other way round) - both planes excel in instantaneous moves and short time maneuvering at high speeds. In sustained turn the 109, because its slats and 51's laminar flow wing, will lose its speed quicker. Many, many people too often mistake turning tight to turning quick... And the P51 can certainly turn very quick - just not at low speeds. In a P51 you can force a 190 or 109, if you dont engage in scissors or low speed turnfest, quickly to lose their speed. Sooner or later they cant use their altitude to gain the speed for maneuvering anymore.

Of course where it really shines is the FR enviroment where thanks to the lack of external views, labels etc. it's speed, range, e retency and cockpit visibility really pay for againt the 109 which can burn all of its fuel in 20min(a full tank!), loses speed madly in any sustained maneuvering, has poor cockpit visibility, poor high speed elevator response and 6 pathetic seconds of 30mm cannon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kettenhunde
10-13-2009, 10:26 AM
A Merlin 1650-3 equipped Mustang would have a sustained load factor advantage over a Bf-109G10 of .2 G's at 35,000 feet.

It would take a very good pilot to realize that small of an advantage.

The V-1650-7 Mustang would be easily outturned by the Bf-109G10 at that same altitude with an almost 1G sustained load factor advantage.

Aircraft turn performance is much more complicated than this however. The answer is YES, a Mustang can sustain a higher load factor at any altitude it is faster. This forces the Bf-109 pilot to go slower and gives the P51 pilot a very large dog fighting advantage over the Bf-109.

The Mustang, like all airplanes, must be flown by it's design speeds. If it tries to recreate a WWI turning circle type fight at the Bf-109's speeds, it will almost always lose that battle.

All the best,

Crumpp

Kettenhunde
10-13-2009, 10:27 AM
-51, especially B, C and Mustang III, can outturn all 109's but the F4 and G2 rather easily

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Do the math....

Wildnoob
10-13-2009, 10:46 AM
I know it's very complex, shouldn't have ask that simple way.

Thanks guys!

RSS-Martin
10-13-2009, 11:47 AM
Yeah US planes are weak, you can even take them down with bi-planes:
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/BigMcKlatscher3.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/BigMcPutzerc.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/BigMcPutzerd.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/mx71.gif

Ba5tard5word
10-13-2009, 01:10 PM
It was a little hard to get a sense of what the pilot's positioning was but it's pretty easy to let an enemy get on your six if you overshoot him and then lose speed by trying to slow down and find him. Or scissors stuff.

Xiolablu3
10-13-2009, 01:40 PM
It all depends on how fast the fight was going on.

As they both poured on the gas in the turn, then the p51 would gradually be able to outurn the Bf109 as they get to the mid speed range and the Bf109's elevators become less effective than the P51's.

Xiolablu3
10-13-2009, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
I will maintain that for the P51D, something is off in regards to the CoG. Basically, that aircraft is hampered with the EFFECT of having a full fuselage fuel tank. Yes, I know all the arguments about the limitations of IL2 modeling and yadda, yadda. If the game has limitations in this area, don't impose those limitations onto select aircraft such as the 51D. No Mustang pilot would choose to go into combat without burning off the fuse tank to at least 25% or less.

Now, if you want to have a blast and actually be able to be competitive in the P51, I suggest joining the Skies of Valor server and wait for a map called "Italian Stallions" or some such. It's basically a knock-down fight between P51C's and Bf109s. I've flown the map about 6 times now, and the outcomes are MUCH more like real life accounts. Flown correctly, the Mustang holds a nice E advantage and if you keep the fight fast the high speed maneuverability really shines.

I've thought this for a long time, but without the wild card of the Fw190, the contest is much more interesting and engaging for the red team. The no-look, no-aim, insta-death magic gunz of the 190 are really quite a yawn for me. Way more fun when each side has to actually earn their kills. As for the P51C, you only get 4x.50's, but again without the 190's overly simplified DM to contend with, a good marksman can wreak plenty of havoc on the 109.

Well, I've typed out quite the endorsement here, but if you want to replicate some exciting P51 vs 109 action check out the Skies of Valor server. Hats off to the FS guys for coming up with this gem.

What name do you fly under over there HA? I might have a flight in a few days and will look out for ya.

PM it if you dont wanna show the world....

Kettenhunde
10-13-2009, 02:23 PM
elevators become less effective

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

It does not work that way. This has been explained before on these boards.

All the best,

Crumpp

M_Gunz
10-13-2009, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by norton1974:
he does say he got hits on the 109.

Wings and fuselage. Something the fanboys forget before the show is halfway through. Somebody call the Whaaaambulance!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif Hey, why didn't the 109 catch fire? It's supposed to catch fire and explode! APIT-APIT-APIT-APIT! Boom! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Unknowns: what model 109, who was flying it, was he wounded, fuel states for both planes, altitude of engagement.

M_Gunz
10-13-2009, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
It all depends on how fast the fight was going on.

As they both poured on the gas in the turn, then the p51 would gradually be able to outurn the Bf109 as they get to the mid speed range and the Bf109's elevators become less effective than the P51's.

The tightest 4 G turn you can make will be at twice your straight and level clean power on stall speed.
That's nowhere near fast enough to heavy-up the 109 elevators.
You can sustain it if you can maintain it but IIRC 4 G's is a bit beyond what those fighters can sustain.
He did say 75+ turns didn't he?

What else? --- Oh yeah the 109 would have to not only match the P-51's turn but pull lead as well to blow his tail off.
Guess who was maybe riding into the stall and therefore not turning his fastest?

Bremspropeller
10-13-2009, 03:02 PM
I've thought this for a long time, but without the wild card of the Fw190, the contest is much more interesting and engaging for the red team. The no-look, no-aim, insta-death magic gunz of the 190 are really quite a yawn for me.

I can feel your pain http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HayateAce
10-13-2009, 03:14 PM
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/funny-pictures-kitten-is-confused.jpg

Romanator21
10-13-2009, 03:31 PM
"Yeah US planes are weak, you can even take them down with bi-planes:"

I'd like to know how you even caught up. Try the same thing with a Wildcat though. You will be up all night http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And, not only US planes will light like that. 109s are susceptible to this, and the tank is not even in the wing where it can be hit easily.

DKoor
10-13-2009, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:
I'd like to know how you even caught up. Being the TK'er he doesn't have much probs with that part http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif .

Skoshi Tiger
10-13-2009, 06:08 PM
From the lowered under carriage I'ld assume the Mustang was either taking off or landing. The really hard part would be slotting your self into the circuit pattern with the crosses on your plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BillSwagger
10-13-2009, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Now, if you want to have a blast and actually be able to be competitive in the P51, I suggest joining the Skies of Valor server and wait for a map called "Italian Stallions" or some such. It's basically a knock-down fight between P51C's and Bf109s. I've flown the map about 6 times now, and the outcomes are MUCH more like real life accounts. Flown correctly, the Mustang holds a nice E advantage and if you keep the fight fast the high speed maneuverability really shines.



agreed

I've been poking my head online again, and that map is one of the better match ups. I like that map from beginning to end.
Other than that, not much has changed, and it appears to be the same cast of characters.

idonno
10-13-2009, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by norton1974:
Could you do what this guy describes with the il-2 mustang, he does say he got hits on the 109.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...RuJI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkaTGSpRuJI&feature=related)

He said he hit the 109 on the wings and fuselage. We don't know how much damage those hits did or if the pilot may have been wounded.

Also, once while flying an SE5 in a WWI sim, I won a turn fight against a Sopwith Camel. That should not have been possible, but the Camel driver was new and didn't know what his airplane was capable of.

RSS-Martin
10-13-2009, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
I'd like to know how you even caught up. Being the TK'er he doesn't have much probs with that part http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No my bi-plane was on the axis side and the P51 and the F4U where alleid, no TKīs there, but I will admit it took a bit, and I used a boom and zoom taktik to get those two planes. Also if you take a close look that P51 is quite a bit from shore still, I donīt know why he started lowering his landing gear that far out at sea.

Here another one chasing a F4U with a P11, that took a while but I got him in the end.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/P11e.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/P11c.jpg

Here by the way the landing gear was still up on that P51:
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/BigMcPutzera.jpg
and you donīt get this if you are hitting friendly: it says in German No.1 target destroyed
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Flugzeuge/BigMcPutzere.jpg
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/mimose.gif
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/2006-02-23_012924_pilot11.gif http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m290/RSS-Martin/Comics/smile011.gif

Aviar
10-15-2009, 03:54 AM
Online nOObs are easy prey.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Aviar