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xXTychoXx
02-23-2010, 08:19 PM
Ok i just finished the game and it was good, but i have some beef with the story, first of all i was all into how the main character was on a do good er/revenge killing spree. But when the story progressed and he got initiated to become a kind of unofficial/official assassin the things they said didn't make sense to me. "There is no truth" and "everything is permitted" this creed doesn't make any sense based on their actions. Big let down, first of all if everything is permitted, why the Heck kill the bad guys? if what they do is neither good nor bad and if there is no pure truth to things why the frack band a whole bunch of people together to fight the bad guys who do bad things that are supposedly "permitted", get what I'm saying the whole "right and wrong" idea. If everything is permitted you are to be "neutral" and be like "what the frack do i care?" not systematically rally people together for your greater good that you say doesn't exist. Its total rubbish.

They should said something like this "there is a truth" and "everything is permitted to make that truth a reality"
I guess they went with what they thought would sounded "cooler" to people.

As as for the end of they story, what in God name was going on there? so there are these Aliens/Gods that are not Gods and not Aliens that came before us, but created us and then uh HUH!? total garbage. Don't get me wrong I'm all for crazy endings, but some how it just made me feel small and disappointed in the end. Or maybe i just get to into the story of my games ha ha.

But on a positive note the game play was great, i just had to do a mental block on the story.
If the game just had a regular kind of story of betrayal, revenge and so on, it still would have been a great game. But this whole Adimus thing brought it down for me big time. I just found myself not caring and wanting to get back to the medieval world of Italy.

Well anyway i hope I'm not alone in my thoughts, And I'd love to hear from similar thinking minds.

Regards
-Tycho

dorido
02-23-2010, 09:14 PM
i think "nothing is true everything is permitted" just means its the assassins job to safeguard the ability for people to freely choose what to believe in, what to follow, and how to live without the templars controlling them through religion, social hierarchies, mind control, etc.

xXTychoXx
02-23-2010, 09:23 PM
That answers the "everything is permitted" bit, but what about the "there is no truth" that's a very curious statement i think.

if there is no truth why are they fighting and making people see theirs? that doesn't make sense to me, to me if you stand for something as an individual or a collective you acknowledge there is a truth to things, greater or not.

-cheers

HewieAlbino
02-23-2010, 09:25 PM
Have you even played the first game? If you had it will be clearer. I'll be talking a bit about the first game here to explain so there will be a bit of spoilers.

First of all, the Assassin's Creed series is going to be a trilogy. So naturally, there'll still be some plot-holes and unanswered questions.

As for the whole revenge to assassin transition, it's all about Ezio's lineage and the ongoing war betwen the Assassins and Templars. To make things simple, Ezio is the descendant of Altair, the protagonist of the first Assassin's Creed.

During Altair's time in the Crusades, 1191 to be exact, the existance of Assassins and Templars are no secret, and there's a war going on between them. With Templars seeking to bring the world under their control and Assassin's doing everything to stop that from happening. As for their creed: "Nothing is true, everything is permitted", that's what the Assassins fight for.

Templars want to imprison peoples' minds, to get rid of free thought and the Assassins all fight to free them.

Now back to Ezio. Both Templars and Assassin's have gone underground, there's still a war waged between them with the Templars still fighting for control and the Assassin's fighting for the people. Ezio's father and brothers are victims of a conspiracy by the Templars, to kill off one branch of the Assassins.

On his quest for revenge, Ezio learns of his lineage from his uncle, also an Assassin, and through a series of Codex pages, written by his ancestor, Altair. He learns about the conspiracy against his family and the history of the Assassins, which his father didn't have the chance to tell him about it. So he realises that the tragedy that has befallen his family is the work of his hereditary enemies, the Templars. So he seeks revenge, and the only way to do that, is to learn the ways of his ancestors.

So he begins training and one-by-one, kills off those responsible for his family's death, his quest taking him to Tuscany, Forli, Venice and Rome. Along the way, he meets other Assassins, though he doesn't know it at first. Each one of his allies assists him in his quest for vengence, at the same time, slowly guiding him along the path to becoming a full-fledged Assassin.

However, despite finally getting the revenge he desires, Ezio still don't understand the Templars' actions, and he fears that they are planning something grand. But by deciphering the Codex, he discovers the existance of an ancient artifact, The Piece of Eden or The Apple, and that the Templars have managed to locate it and are now in possession of it. So he tracks them down, until he finally encounters Rodrigo Borgia, leader of the Templars and the man who is most responsible for his family's tragedy.

After defeating Rodrigo in combat and taking the Apple, Ezio is officially initiated into the order. He then spent years protecting and understanding the Apple, as well as finding the remaining Codex pages.

With the completed Codex, he and the Assassins discover the location of a Vault, a place said to hold some powerful secret. After learning the Templars' interest in the location as well, Ezio sets out to find it.

Of course, the Vault is located under Vatican City, where Rodrigo, now Pope, resides, and he has one of the keys needed to open the Vault, the other being the Apple.

Both Templar and Assassin face off, each seeking the secret of the Vault. In the end, Ezio prevails and he enters the Vault. There, he meet Minerva, a "God" who is, surprisingly, expecting him. She speaks of what has happened to the world before, and what will happen again. A solar flare that had and will wipe out all life on Earth. In the end, however, we find out she is speaking, not to Ezio, but Desmond, who is watching Ezio's life through the Animus about 500 years in the future.

Now, the modern Assassins realized that the Templars were no longer their top priorty. There is something more devastating heading their way. The game ends here, and we can expect AC3 to carry on and explain what will happen.

As for the Animus, it is a machine created by Abstergo, a modern day Templar company, and later improved by the Assassins. It enables a person to view and relive his ancestors' memories. In this case, Desmond is a descendant of Ezio, who is in turn a descendant of Altair. In AC1, we see the life of Altair and in AC2 it is Ezio.

Wow. I just wrote an essay summarising the game.

xXTychoXx
02-23-2010, 09:40 PM
yeah i played the first one and too thought it a strange story, I'm familiar with the second as well. I myself find it uninteresting, my thought was that they could have made the Assassins Creed series (given with a drastically different story) and scraped the Adimus concept and aliens/gods or whatever the bloody ell it/she was. and even then still kept the religious war theme involved. A straight up middle ages assassin game.
I know they cant do that now, but i feel my grips with the story and themes are justified. or else i wouldn't be voicing my concerns to those who may feel the same about the story.
I want to "get into" and thoroughly enjoy every 60 dollar title i purchase, but for me personally having recently obtained the first game, in terms of story. I find them ridiculous.
Having said that, i will defiantly be waiting for the 3 installment. the game play and atmosphere are too enjoyable to play to pass up regardless of story.

but, to each his own.
-Tycho

Just_da_Jester
02-24-2010, 12:42 AM
duuuuude....evey1 is entitled to their own opinion, but I for one have never played a game that had the balls to basically say that we are all being controlled and that religion is nothing but an illusion. This game pushes the envelope of world perspective to a new level of conspiracy and greed using many pivotal points in history and I love every second of it!

the creed:

"nothing is real"
I had a great English teacher that taught me my greatest lesson....question everything. Believe half of what you see and nothing that you hear. This is basically the first part of the creed. If you go through life accepting everything you see on the news and read in the paper then you are plain ignorant and will go through your sad life like a robot, "plugged in" matrix style. This is not the life for me. If you live your life knowing "Nothing is real," then you will by nature question your surroundings and popular belief. I mean look at 9/11. Prime example. "Terrorizers" and "Evil doers"....come on Bush, you know you brought those buildings down yourself....sorry got off topic there haha. But think what you will...all im saying is noting is real, and the sooner you grasp this concept the sooner you can free your mind.

"everything is permitted."

This ones pretty self explanatory i thought. For the assassins, everything IS permitted. They live by one law and that's the creed. But for the most part there actions are for the greater good. Now I have a feeling Altir will re-surface as someone who ended up using the apple for his own personal gains, but time will tell. Right and wrong really have little to nothing to do with being permitted because ANYTHING is...the Assassins only want to preserve freedom by stopping the Templars who are after absolute world obedience and control.

Nothing is real, Everything is Permitted is a creed that I accepted for myself long before AC1 was even thought of thanks to my favorite teacher ever Mr. Johnson. Thank you good sir.

BK-110
02-24-2010, 02:12 AM
A certain conversation between AltaÔr and Al Mualim explains it rather well:

Al Mualim: Before you go, I have a question for you.
Altair: Of course.
Al Mualim: What is the Truth?
Altair: We place faith in ourselves; we see the world the way it really is, and hope that, one day, all mankind might see the same.
Al Mualim: What is the world, then?
Altair: An illusion. One which we can either submit to - as most do - or transcend.
Al Mualim: What is it to transcend?
Altair: To recognize nothing is true, and everything is permitted. That laws arise, not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free; it commands us to be wise.


Originally posted by xXTychoXx:
Big let down, first of all if everything is permitted, why the Heck kill the bad guys?


It's because the Templars try to take away humanity's ability to choose for themselves. The Assassins' purpose is safeguarding free will.

As for the "nothing is true"; it means that the world is full of desceptions and lies, meant to control people. AltaÔr later also specifies religion as such deception, as seen in the codex pages. In other words, "nothing is true" is more of a metaphor for the world being full of such lies.

nightcobra
02-24-2010, 02:40 AM
i really don't believe that they're aliens, as our own civilization is only a few thousand years old but the others that came before had millions of years worth of time to make their civilization and is a more probable answer than just because they had advanced technology they must have been aliens and that wooooo crap.

Captain Tomatoz
02-24-2010, 02:42 AM
i think it means that you can do anything you want to do but you must be wise enough to know whether is right or wrong http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jimbo11235813
02-24-2010, 04:12 AM
I don't know what ending you were expecting after seeing the pieces of Eden in AC1 and AC2, and the fact Vidic talked about "those who came before."

Alamut book, Spoilers:
But if I remember correctly from the book called Alamut, the meaning of "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" was that there was no Gods, so anything you do won't affect your afterlife (as nothing would happen, so everything is permitted). <span class="ev_code_WHITE"> That was what the leader of the assassins believed (this book is set in 1092), but he made his assassins to believe that he was in fact a prophet and that he had a key to paradise. He would then drug his assassins, allow them to experience 'paradise' (using young women he had trained to seduce the assassins), and then drug them again to later tell them that the only way back to paradise was to do what he says.</span>
This is a mixture of what I read about the book on the internet and what I've read in the book (as I'm only half way through the book.)

This meaning fits the meaning in AC, as all religion that people know is not true.

Assassin_M
02-24-2010, 07:31 AM
to put it simply, "Nothing is True" the word true means what the people think and how they are misguided and misunderstanding even their own religion as evident that the assassins dont deny religion but imply that its misunderstood and that the people changed it to deceive or hide something. "Everything is permitted" means that to do whats good which is safeguarding mankind`s free will an assassin must disregard the law as a small sacrifice can save the lives of the many.

Cornik22
02-24-2010, 07:56 AM
I'm sorry but I have to agree with xXTychoXx. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" sounds cool but doesn't make any sense at all, being the main problem that the first premise contradicts the second, and even itself. If "nothing is true", then "everything is false". If "everything is false", then both the first and second premises are false, concluding that not everything is false or permitted. And by the way, how could you know what is good and what is bad if "nothing is true"? If you act under the premise "everything is permitted", concepts like morality doesn't mean anything to you, because you can do whatever you want, it doesn't matter if itís good or bad. In fact, there is a real way of thinking which follows that premise: it's call anarchism, and as we know very well, just like communism it doesn't work. Ironically, assassins follow a complex creed where morality and choosing the right path seems to have a big role, a way of thinking that has nothing to do with ideas like "nothing is true" (there are true things and false things) or "everything is permitted" (not everything is permitted. You have to follow the rules of the creed)

caswallawn_2k7
02-24-2010, 09:11 AM
If you act under the premise "everything is permitted", concepts like morality doesn't mean anything to you, because you can do whatever you want, it doesn't matter if itís good or bad.
good and bad is about perspective, so nothing is ever good or bad, people just label it as so because in the end they won and wrote it how they saw it.

you could say Altair and Ezio are cold blooded murderers as they killed so many people making them bad, but if you look at it from their side they were basically trying to take down a dictator ship who wanted to control the people so what they did is good.

so nothing is true because all history is wrote by the winners.

take any war just about always the winning side will come of smelling of roses, but if you ask the people in that country they could tell you terrible things that the winning side did to win that is left out of the history books to make the winner look better. the same as the good things the losing side has done will be left out to strip as much humanity as possible from the losers to make the winners again look better.

saying nothing is true, isn't the same as saying "everything I say is a lie" it's a statement that shows the truth is only true to the person writing/telling it.

as for everything is permitted it is the same as America claiming to be "the land of the free" yet you only believe you are free because the leaders tell you so, in truth you are still a slave to your leaders, meaning you are not free as if you were free you would have no rules telling you how to live.


so basically to me the meaning of the saying is not to believe everything you are told/read as it will always be in favour of one side and that to get freedom and keep it you need to be willing to do anything ignoring all law's and implied rules of morality.

Just_da_Jester
02-24-2010, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Cornik22:
I'm sorry but I have to agree with xXTychoXx. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" sounds cool but doesn't make any sense at all, being the main problem that the first premise contradicts the second, and even itself. If "nothing is true", then "everything is false". If "everything is false", then both the first and second premises are false, concluding that not everything is false or permitted. And by the way, how could you know what is good and what is bad if "nothing is true"? If you act under the premise "everything is permitted", concepts like morality doesn't mean anything to you, because you can do whatever you want, it doesn't matter if itís good or bad. In fact, there is a real way of thinking which follows that premise: it's call anarchism, and as we know very well, just like communism it doesn't work. Ironically, assassins follow a complex creed where morality and choosing the right path seems to have a big role, a way of thinking that has nothing to do with ideas like "nothing is true" (there are true things and false things) or "everything is permitted" (not everything is permitted. You have to follow the rules of the creed)

why are people taking the creed and putting morals and good vs evil into things...as far as I see it, the Creed says nothing of this. like Altir says "that laws arise, not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free; it commands us to be wise." wise does not necessarily mean "good" although the assassins usually do stand for good. Stop trying to be so literal with your interpretation of the creed cornik22 and Tycho. This linear way of thinking is very much a Templar trait....maybe we have some Templars infiltrating Ubisoft hahaha.

SWJS
02-24-2010, 09:29 AM
Exactly! Whereas many people follow a linear path, bound by books, teachings, tradtions and such, some people think outside the box and follow what they want to, and do what they want.

This is what Nothing is True, Everything is Permitted means.

No one man controls another. Words written by man are full of lies and deciet. Man has the will to do as he will, he need no other to guide him.

xXTychoXx
02-24-2010, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Just_da_Jester:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cornik22:
I'm sorry but I have to agree with xXTychoXx. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" sounds cool but doesn't make any sense at all, being the main problem that the first premise contradicts the second, and even itself. If "nothing is true", then "everything is false". If "everything is false", then both the first and second premises are false, concluding that not everything is false or permitted. And by the way, how could you know what is good and what is bad if "nothing is true"? If you act under the premise "everything is permitted", concepts like morality doesn't mean anything to you, because you can do whatever you want, it doesn't matter if itís good or bad. In fact, there is a real way of thinking which follows that premise: it's call anarchism, and as we know very well, just like communism it doesn't work. Ironically, assassins follow a complex creed where morality and choosing the right path seems to have a big role, a way of thinking that has nothing to do with ideas like "nothing is true" (there are true things and false things) or "everything is permitted" (not everything is permitted. You have to follow the rules of the creed)

why are people taking the creed and putting morals and good vs evil into things...as far as I see it, the Creed says nothing of this. like Altir says "that laws arise, not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free; it commands us to be wise." wise does not necessarily mean "good" although the assassins usually do stand for good. Stop trying to be so literal with your interpretation of the creed cornik22 and Tycho. This linear way of thinking is very much a Templar trait....maybe we have some Templars infiltrating Ubisoft hahaha. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not literal really, its just making sense of what is said, when you go go into such simple statements its just ends up being endless complicated rubbish that cant be interpreted any which way, ( if your a moral relativist )but even then you account for your own personal right any wrong.
For example if someone says "Yo Mofo, I'm totally going to kill you" i don't interpret it to mean an assortment of things, i think damn he wants to kill me, and get the heck outta there.
same with what the main character in Assassins creed 2 says' "there is no truth" "well that means this and this and maybe this too in context. nonsense. if it were a real life documentary or something i would think what else could be involved, but this is a 60$ game that Ubi wants to make money on. So i take it for face value.
So i can safely assume they made a writing mistake, don't take the writing mistake and blow it out of proportion and oh it must mean this and try and make it fit, i don't see how it does.. It is what it is. On and the "creed" is morality of a certin caliber' things to do and not to do and teachings to live by. morality is a huge part of the game. Etizo decides who lives and dies and then is kind to the them in the end despite how "bad" they and his friends think they are. I don't know about you but that alone seems like moral stuff to me.

Cornik22 had it spot on, its not literal, its taking a video game for face value. If this was a more "real live" kind of thing i would be compelled to go further. Its not, its a great block buster game, and some stuff the writers wrote doesn't make sense and the people shouldn't be taking those flaws and justifying them and trying to make them fit into the game. It doesn't make sense. My 2 cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and i assure you, I'm not a Templar...lol

SWJS
02-24-2010, 10:56 AM
It isn't endless complicated rubbish. It's a riddle. It was written into the AC story on purpose, because the meaning of the phrase ties in with what the assassins stand for.

Take a moment to read the other explanations.

The phrase is explained quite a few times, and they all make perfect sense.

That's the whole point of a riddle, to convey the meaning, and hide it from others. Only the people who can decypher the meaning of the riddle can understand it.

Just_da_Jester
02-24-2010, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by xXTychoXx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Just_da_Jester:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cornik22:
I'm sorry but I have to agree with xXTychoXx. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" sounds cool but doesn't make any sense at all, being the main problem that the first premise contradicts the second, and even itself. If "nothing is true", then "everything is false". If "everything is false", then both the first and second premises are false, concluding that not everything is false or permitted. And by the way, how could you know what is good and what is bad if "nothing is true"? If you act under the premise "everything is permitted", concepts like morality doesn't mean anything to you, because you can do whatever you want, it doesn't matter if itís good or bad. In fact, there is a real way of thinking which follows that premise: it's call anarchism, and as we know very well, just like communism it doesn't work. Ironically, assassins follow a complex creed where morality and choosing the right path seems to have a big role, a way of thinking that has nothing to do with ideas like "nothing is true" (there are true things and false things) or "everything is permitted" (not everything is permitted. You have to follow the rules of the creed)

why are people taking the creed and putting morals and good vs evil into things...as far as I see it, the Creed says nothing of this. like Altir says "that laws arise, not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free; it commands us to be wise." wise does not necessarily mean "good" although the assassins usually do stand for good. Stop trying to be so literal with your interpretation of the creed cornik22 and Tycho. This linear way of thinking is very much a Templar trait....maybe we have some Templars infiltrating Ubisoft hahaha. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not literal really, its just making sense of what is said, when you go go into such simple statements its just ends up being endless complicated rubbish that cant be interpreted any which way, ( if your a moral relativist )but even then you account for your own personal right any wrong.
For example if someone says "Yo Mofo, I'm totally going to kill you" i don't interpret it to mean an assortment of things, i think damn he wants to kill me, and get the heck outta there.
same with what the main character in Assassins creed 2 says' "there is no truth" "well that means this and this and maybe this too in context. nonsense. if it were a real life documentary or something i would think what else could be involved, but this is a 60$ game that Ubi wants to make money on. So i take it for face value.
So i can safely assume they made a writing mistake, don't take the writing mistake and blow it out of proportion and oh it must mean this and try and make it fit, i don't see how it does.. It is what it is. On and the "creed" is morality of a certin caliber' things to do and not to do and teachings to live by. morality is a huge part of the game. Etizo decides who lives and dies and then is kind to the them in the end despite how "bad" they and his friends think they are. I don't know about you but that alone seems like moral stuff to me.

Cornik22 had it spot on, its not literal, its taking a video game for face value. If this was a more "real live" kind of thing i would be compelled to go further. Its not, its a great block buster game, and some stuff the writers wrote doesn't make sense and the people shouldn't be taking those flaws and justifying them and trying to make them fit into the game. It doesn't make sense. My 2 cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and i assure you, I'm not a Templar...lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yo mofo im going to kill you has NOTHING to do with the creed. I see your point your trying to make but it really doesnt apply. If some1 says to you that they are going to kill u theres not much to interprit there....they want to kill you. What the assassins believe in and demonstrate throughout their lives isnt literal. Its an interpretation that involves some outside the box thinking.

As far as the writing being "flawed", a fail to see any flaws with this game. Its so deep and controversial. No one is twisting or trying to make the meaning fit the game...its self evident. In a nutshell it means trust no one and live without restraint. I dont understand how that doesnt fit the game and is a writing error....come on man. You really think that a game as deep as this would go by a false and incorrect mantra? The writers at Ubi know what their doing and they've done it extremely well....better than alot of other companies thats for sure.

As far as morality goes, i see your argument and its valid, but the creed is not a moral code, but instead instructions to live. these are two separate entities on their own. because Ezio used the code in moral ways, does not mean the creed is of moral structure ya dig?

jimbo11235813
02-24-2010, 12:09 PM
The book, Alamut, as I understand it is about the founder of the Hashshashin (not sure how accurate the info is, but read that it is quite accurate).

(The font in white can be is info from the book, so anyone who is reading it shouldn't read the white font (most of which I'm doing from memory and I haven't got round to finishing it over the last couple of months). The book was what inspired the creators of AC to make the game.)
<span class="ev_code_WHITE">The leader at Alamut, he was known to the everyone living there as Sayyiduna, and he grew up learning about the parents religion. However, he couldn't believe some aspects in his religion. After consulting many of the religious leaders, a man told him (I think the man was a Dai) that it wasn't true. People were led to believe so they could be controlled. Discovering this, Sayyiduna worked out a plan to create an army using religion. cleverly tricked a man into giving him Alamut, and trained soldiers to fight and girl to seduce. He would drug his trained soldiers, and send them to 'paradise' where they would be seduced by the young women who lived in Alamut. They were then drugged again and told that the only way back to paradise was to do everything the prophet, sayyiduna, said. </span>
Sayyiduna (known as Hassan-i Sabbah) came up with the motto that "Nothing is true, Everything is permitted." This refers more to all religions, it doesn't mean everything in the world isn't real. It's just that the religious laws and the beliefs are not true. With this in mind, what ever you do in this world wouldn't affect you in any way once you die.

The info above is based on a different part of the book, but there is too much to write to quote the necessary info.

This is a small quote from the book that is relevant to the motto:
"If a person realized that everything people call happiness, love and joy was just a miscalculation based on a false premise, he'd feel a horrible emptiness inside. The only thing that could rouse him from his paralysis would be to gamble his own fate and the fate of others. The person capable of that would be permitting anything." Hence the "Nothing is true, Everything is permitted.

xXTychoXx
02-24-2010, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Just_da_Jester:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xXTychoXx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Just_da_Jester:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cornik22:
I'm sorry but I have to agree with xXTychoXx. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" sounds cool but doesn't make any sense at all, being the main problem that the first premise contradicts the second, and even itself. If "nothing is true", then "everything is false". If "everything is false", then both the first and second premises are false, concluding that not everything is false or permitted. And by the way, how could you know what is good and what is bad if "nothing is true"? If you act under the premise "everything is permitted", concepts like morality doesn't mean anything to you, because you can do whatever you want, it doesn't matter if itís good or bad. In fact, there is a real way of thinking which follows that premise: it's call anarchism, and as we know very well, just like communism it doesn't work. Ironically, assassins follow a complex creed where morality and choosing the right path seems to have a big role, a way of thinking that has nothing to do with ideas like "nothing is true" (there are true things and false things) or "everything is permitted" (not everything is permitted. You have to follow the rules of the creed)

why are people taking the creed and putting morals and good vs evil into things...as far as I see it, the Creed says nothing of this. like Altir says "that laws arise, not from divinity, but reason. I understand now that our creed does not command us to be free; it commands us to be wise." wise does not necessarily mean "good" although the assassins usually do stand for good. Stop trying to be so literal with your interpretation of the creed cornik22 and Tycho. This linear way of thinking is very much a Templar trait....maybe we have some Templars infiltrating Ubisoft hahaha. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not literal really, its just making sense of what is said, when you go go into such simple statements its just ends up being endless complicated rubbish that cant be interpreted any which way, ( if your a moral relativist )but even then you account for your own personal right any wrong.
For example if someone says "Yo Mofo, I'm totally going to kill you" i don't interpret it to mean an assortment of things, i think damn he wants to kill me, and get the heck outta there.
same with what the main character in Assassins creed 2 says' "there is no truth" "well that means this and this and maybe this too in context. nonsense. if it were a real life documentary or something i would think what else could be involved, but this is a 60$ game that Ubi wants to make money on. So i take it for face value.
So i can safely assume they made a writing mistake, don't take the writing mistake and blow it out of proportion and oh it must mean this and try and make it fit, i don't see how it does.. It is what it is. On and the "creed" is morality of a certin caliber' things to do and not to do and teachings to live by. morality is a huge part of the game. Etizo decides who lives and dies and then is kind to the them in the end despite how "bad" they and his friends think they are. I don't know about you but that alone seems like moral stuff to me.

Cornik22 had it spot on, its not literal, its taking a video game for face value. If this was a more "real live" kind of thing i would be compelled to go further. Its not, its a great block buster game, and some stuff the writers wrote doesn't make sense and the people shouldn't be taking those flaws and justifying them and trying to make them fit into the game. It doesn't make sense. My 2 cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and i assure you, I'm not a Templar...lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yo mofo im going to kill you has NOTHING to do with the creed. I see your point your trying to make but it really doesnt apply. If some1 says to you that they are going to kill u theres not much to interprit there....they want to kill you. What the assassins believe in and demonstrate throughout their lives isnt literal. Its an interpretation that involves some outside the box thinking.

As far as the writing being "flawed", a fail to see any flaws with this game. Its so deep and controversial. No one is twisting or trying to make the meaning fit the game...its self evident. In a nutshell it means trust no one and live without restraint. I dont understand how that doesnt fit the game and is a writing error....come on man. You really think that a game as deep as this would go by a false and incorrect mantra? The writers at Ubi know what their doing and they've done it extremely well....better than alot of other companies thats for sure.

As far as morality goes, i see your argument and its valid, but the creed is not a moral code, but instead instructions to live. these are two separate entities on their own. because Ezio used the code in moral ways, does not mean the creed is of moral structure ya dig? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point was an example of taking something for its face value, when they say something like "there is no truth" as much as its suppose to apply to religions and so on. It also applys to EVERYTHING else and if it didn't they should have classified that in the game. so far I've heard a lot of justification for the "motto" The idea that knowledge should be paramount and nothing from the supposed divine and what not. Well if that's the case, how is it we actually have knowledge and consciousnesses to believe that. There is no evolutionary explanation for consisious and so on. Even as far as religious belief, and its completely arrogant to assert that knowledge and the scene of self identity, that cannot be measured, that they supposedly value so much in the game maybe has the possibility of something divine. The very idea that they seem to ignore that may have created what they so value. That doesn't make sense to me


(There is no proof for either side just good ideas theory's and equations) I'm not religious by any stretch of the imagination but there are things i wonder sometimes, especially when i hear people quote part of the book and so on about how knowledge is the coolest thing ever and we would follow that ( according to the game ) to reiterate, who gave us that knowledge in the first place?

My main point of this post is shine a light on what i believe are the irrationality's of the main parts of the story, and why it bothered me, and made for a depressing conclusion.
And just so you know, I'm down with crazy endings. An example of this is Mass Effect 1 with those crazy Reaver bugs that wiggle all the time and are all like "We will destroy all life in the galaxy!" sufficient to say, Big surprise.
But i left the experience feeling like "yeah that freaking ROCKED!"
Assassins Creed 2 however, just bugged me.

Oh P.S and I'm basing most of what I've said on my experience of both Assassin games, not the book as i have not read it.

Just_da_Jester
02-24-2010, 12:42 PM
^^^you totally lost me here bro. Like EziotheAssassin said "Only the people who can decypher the meaning can understand it." maybe you really just dont get it.

xXTychoXx
02-24-2010, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Just_da_Jester:
^^^you totally lost me here bro. Like EziotheAssassin said "Only the people who can decypher the meaning can understand it." maybe you really just dont get it.

sorry, i have a tendency to get philosophical sometimes.

If there is a meaning than that is a truth, something which the assassins swears doesn't exist, weather or not its totally meant to be with religion or not it doesn't matter if it was totally intended for the religions of the world they should have clarified that in the game.

Ėnoun

1. what is intended to be, or actually is, expressed or indicated; signification; import: the three meanings of a word.


2. the end, purpose, or significance of something: What is the meaning of life? What is the meaning of this intrusion?

I believe if there is no truth there is no meaning, the one cant exist without the other. How don't i get it?

Even at the least Ezio contradicts himself, which isn't surprising considering most people were uneducated half a millenia ago.

Just_da_Jester
02-24-2010, 01:21 PM
^^i think your giving yourself too much credit my friend. Your thinking to linear. expand your mind just a tad.

xXTychoXx
02-24-2010, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Just_da_Jester:
^^i think your giving yourself too much credit my friend. Your thinking to linear. expand your mind just a tad.



Your confusing logical thinking with that of the linear mindset.

Logic has a say and a good one. But it also has a specific course of thinking and mindset that can easily be confused by those who don't possess it.

I base what i say on what is said in the title production (Assassins Creed series) and what people inform me of. Not in endless interpretation and absence of what makes sense in relation to what is said. And even if what you say is true, it by its nature contradicts itself. As i stated in the before mentioned reply.

-Cheers

Just_da_Jester
02-24-2010, 09:05 PM
http://www.southdacola.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/anchorman_the_legend_of_ron_burgundy_movie_image_w ill_ferrell__6_.jpg

Agree to disagree. hahahaha