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View Full Version : Doolittle Take Off Scenarios



Hanglands
03-19-2007, 04:10 PM
Hi,

I've recently been thinking about the Doolittle mission.

I wondered how it could be most closely translated into this sim.

Im sure theres loads of stuff that just simply cant be replicated in this, but this is just about doing the best you can with what youve got.

So, a B-25 off a carrier in bad weather.

The B-25b's used by Doolittle had only 3 defensive guns, and non-essential equipment was removed. An extra 1695l of fuel was added, taking the fuel load up from 2625l to 4320l. They carried 4x500lb bombs.

The in game B-25J has more (forget how many) defensive guns, each weighing 32kg. It will only carry the default max fuel load, and all equipment is fixed in place.

So, the first thing is to get the aircraft to weigh the same as Doolittles. Petrol weighs 737.22kg/cu.m. So the extra 1695l carried by Doolittle added 1271kg.

Most of this weight can be added to the in game B-25J by setting the weapon load out as 4x500lb and 1x1000ib bombs.

The remaing 271kg can be taken up by machine guns and ammo that we have, but Doolittle didnt (each MG accounts for 32kg), non-essential equipment we can strip, etc).

So if we consider that now the aircraft are as equal as we can make, you have to consider the weather.

Doolittles biography and many other internet sources give the carriers speed as 20kts. The wind speed depends on what source you read, but Doolittles biography states 30kts. So a combined speed of 50kts. This works out as 96.2kmh. Using the technique described on THIS PAGE (http://www.il2-fullmissionbuilder.com/heavy-carrier-takeoffs.html) the carrier speed is set as 90kmh. This has to be done as wind speed is not modelled in game.

As for the carrier. I thought CV9 carrier Essex was the closest match for the Hornet. The deck on Essex is a bit longer, but I thought that as the aircraft will be more spaced out that this may cancel out. I couldnt find a reference to the actual length of deck used for the take off run for the the first aircraft. But I know they wanted aircraft that could get off a carrier in 500ft. The four Aircraft placed on the Essex gives a run of 177m for the No.1 aircraft this is 530ft. Maybe I should have tried HMS Illustrious?

Maybe 530ft is too much? I also tried this with a smaller carrier, giving a run of 270ft. Though for this I cheated a bit and went for the 40kmh wind speed, just to help a little.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/carrier.jpg

This is how I got on with the Essex scenario :

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/th_B-25CarrierTakeOff.jpg (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m203/ChickenHawk_2006/?action=view&current=B-25CarrierTakeOff.flv)

I still cant get the aircraft up with the short carrier deck. I think Ive almost got it... Maybe.... I noticed that if you let the engine settle with super charger at stage 2 while you throttle against the chocks, if you switch back to supercharger stage 1 you get a little surge in revs which I release immediatelt as I release the chocks in the hope the additional revs help overcome the aircrafts inertia.

In the next post I make in this thread I'll stick the contents of the .MIS files and you can see how you fare, and make any corrections you see fit.

Regards.

Hanglands
03-19-2007, 04:11 PM
First, from the Essex :

[MAIN]
MAP CoralSea/load.ini
TIME 8.5
CloudType 5
CloudHeight 500.0
player usa0101
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
usa0101
[usa0101]
Planes 4
Skill 1
Class air.B_25J1
Fuel 100
weapons 4x500lbs1x1000lbs
[usa0101_Way]
TAKEOFF -639230.15 -514991.38 0 0 0_Chief 0 &0
NORMFLY -359239.47 -534262.99 500.00 300.00 &0
[Chiefs]
0_Chief Ships.USSEssexCV9 1 0 2 1.0
[0_Chief_Road]
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[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

Hanglands
03-19-2007, 04:11 PM
And second, from the CVE84 :

[MAIN]
MAP CoralSea/load.ini
TIME 8.5
CloudType 5
CloudHeight 500.0
player usa0101
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
usa0101
[usa0101]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.B_25J1
Fuel 100
weapons 4x500lbs1x1000lbs
[usa0101_Way]
TAKEOFF -639179.80 -514993.69 0 0 0_Chief 0 &0
NORMFLY -359239.47 -534262.99 500.00 300.00 &0
[Chiefs]
0_Chief Ships.USSShamrockBayCVE84 1 0 2 1.0
[0_Chief_Road]
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[NStationary]
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]

XyZspineZyX
03-19-2007, 04:34 PM
The sim won't let you pull enough Hg" manifold pressure

Waldo.Pepper
03-19-2007, 05:54 PM
From - The Doolittle Raid pages 29-30 by Glines.

--

Before Doolittle left Columbia for Washington, Hilger suggested that it would be a good idea if a navy flying instructor were assigned to the project to teach the pilots how to make carrier takeoffs, which would require a special technique. Army air force pilots were not trained to take heavily loaded bombers off in the short space of a carrier's deck, while navy pilots had to demonstrate their proficiency in carrier takeoff and landing procedures before graduation from flying school. Doolittle agreed and requested the navy to assign an instructor. Lt. Henry L. Miller, USN, received orders to proceed to Eglin from Pensa-cola. Years later, he recalled his impressions

"I reported to the field's commanding officer and learned that Lt. Col. Jimmy Doolittle was the commanding officer of the detachment. I figured something big was happening. When I arrived, I met Capts. "Ski" York, Davey Jones, and Ross Greening. I told them why I was reporting aboard. They seemed surprised. I didn't know that the whole operation was still a mystery to them.
After we chatted a while they asked me if I had flown a B-25 before. I had to be honest. I had never even seen a B-25 before. They took me outside and I got my first look. Man, how I wanted to get my hands on that airplane!
After looking at the performance data and pilots' handbooks, we all climbed into the plane, proceeded to an auxiliary field that had been set aside for their group and made two practice takeoffs. I acted as co-pilot for Davey Jones and Ski York while Ross Greening observed. I gave them instructions and they followed them to the letter. On the first takeoff, the indicated airspeed was 50 miles an hour. The three Army pilots were skeptical and would not believe that we could take that plane off with a gross weight of 27,000 pounds at 50 miles an hour. They agreed that the airspeed indicator must be off.
On the second takeoff, with Davey Jones at the controls, we got off at an indicated 60 miles an hour because Jones held it on the ground a bit longer than York had done. Even so, the three of them were convinced. They didn't know it then but before they were finished, they would be able to take off from 350 feet in a 40-knot wind with the plane loaded to 31,000 pounds"2,000 pounds over its designed maximum load."

--
Easypeasy!

http://www.zshare.net/download/easypeasy-ntrk.html

OMK_Hand
03-19-2007, 05:56 PM
Hi Hanglands.

I've just tried both your Essex and CVE84 listings, and successfully taken off on both. I have a dial-up connection, so I'm still waiting to see your film.

Chocks away
Chocks in
Engines on
Full flaps
Full nose right rudder trim (the nose wants to go hard left when chocks are away)
RPM 95% or 100%
throttle 100%
When the revs have settled, chocks away.
correct swing with a little rudder
Raise gear when clear
Raise flaps in stages.
Open cowl flaps, climb out at 2400 rpm, 38" boost, 155 mph IAS.
No worries.

Waldo.Pepper
03-19-2007, 06:15 PM
CVE?

Less Easeypeasy - but still no problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/Doolittle/grab0000.jpg

http://www.zshare.net/download/easypeasy-2-ntrk.html

Hanglands
03-20-2007, 03:43 AM
Hi,

I got it eventually. A bit shakey but it worked.
http://rapidshare.com/files/21858167/b-25_CVE.trk

As I said I cheated a bit with the windspeed in the CVE scenario, and used the higher speed of 40kts instead of the 30kts quoted in "I Could Never Be So Lucky Again".

In any case, it seems I made an error in my calculation and 50kts equates to 80.2km/h and not the 96.6km/h I previously quoted.

To correct this you will need to change the 23rd line of the MIS file from :

[0_Chief_Road]
-639107.63 -515000.00 120.00 0 697 30.0

To :

[0_Chief_Road]
-639107.63 -515000.00 120.00 0 697 25.0

Im not even going to bother attempting that one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Regards.

STENKA_69.GIAP
03-20-2007, 05:41 AM
It's not difficult - have a look at the film

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ptthome/Films/eye-1.zip

I used South Japan Map, put Essex in bottom right hand corner, take off, bomb Nagasaki and crashland on small Island at top right.

You don't need to edit mission file. Set weather to storm, carrier to 56 Kmh. Wind does exist and can vary from map to map, in South Japan I think I set Carrier heading North to be into wind. Test by sitting on deck of stationary carrier and look at airspeed indicator in speedbar.

50% fuel and 6x500Lb bombs was the loadout if I remember right - Fuel is enough for that map.

Set landing flaps 100% Power 100% Pitch 120% Rich mix and chocks away.

dbillo
03-20-2007, 10:48 AM
Hanglands, re: Essex takeoff...I noticed your right wing sliced through the island. I suspect, in real life, there may have been some minor adverse repercussions from that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Hanglands
03-20-2007, 10:56 AM
Details, details..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Foxman2
03-21-2007, 07:43 PM
I have also taken off a B-25 without altering the speed of the carrier, I used the Generic Carrier, put her at full speed, placed 4 B-25's with full fuel and 4 500lb bombs and placed myself in number 2 aircraft and took off successfully, the reason i din't go first was i would keep crashing into the ocean by the smallest margin, i would be 1 second away from gaining enough altuide to get away and then crash, the number 2 position is the closes i can take off.