PDA

View Full Version : Strongest FFB stick available?



Eow_TK
10-25-2009, 11:56 AM
Inspired by the thread by wolf-striked, I started considering that I would like a strong stick, and a FFB one. I had a cheap FFB a while ago but it started freaking out (logitech) so i had to put it out of buisiness.

What do you think is the most forcefull FFB stick is, or what are other good sticks you can recommend?

Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bearcat99
10-26-2009, 02:05 PM
Haven't tried the new Logitech system.. but the all time king of FFB sticks until proven otherwise is the MSFFB2.

FoolTrottel
10-26-2009, 05:01 PM
but the all time king of FFB sticks until proven otherwise is the MSFFB2.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/fooltrottel/GuillemotFFB.jpg
Guillemot FFB joystick.

I've tried both, and prefer the Guillemot.
* Stronger forces
* Forces are transferred via rubber belts, you do not feel the gears... I felt them 'grinding' in the MSFFB2.

That hardly proves a thing, I know, but if you can, you should try the Guillemonster. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Edit: Oops... I forgot to mention the thing is so old and rare, you can hardly call it 'available'...

Eow_TK
10-26-2009, 05:16 PM
I can see why they call it that! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

But thanks for the suggestions.

wolf-striked
10-26-2009, 06:29 PM
Strong FFB would be excellent.Belt driven and very strong FFB and I'm in.!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ba5tard5word
10-26-2009, 07:00 PM
What does FFB do for your gaming experience, is it just rumble? I've read here that it doesn't work great in Il-2 or something, but I don't really know what it is so I dunno.

Eow_TK
10-26-2009, 07:47 PM
I would disable the rumble. I just want the forces you would get near a stall, or at high speed ect...

So you can "feel" whats happening to the plane

Frankthetank36
10-26-2009, 08:36 PM
So, any other FFB sticks that use rubber belts? Did a search on the Guillemot and didn't find much.

Eow_TK
10-26-2009, 09:14 PM
I really would like something like Wolf-striked brought up in the other thread. A really tight joy stick, except i want a floor mounted one. i wanted to take a FFB stick and extend it so i have a more realistic feel. I want a strong FFB force so the extra leverage wont make the force feel weak.

But at the same time, I would feel bad cutting up a FFB stick. knowing me i would ruin it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

squareusr
10-27-2009, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So, any other FFB sticks that use rubber belts? Did a search on the Guillemot and didn't find much.

The old "Logitech Wingman Force" (no twist, serial/pseudo-USB hybrid, no support in the 64 bit age) uses tiny rubberized cable ropes as a belt drive.

Frankthetank36
10-27-2009, 02:19 PM
So why don't they use rubber belts anymore? I had a Wingman that didn't use them and it quit working after a few months. I just don't understand how an electric motor won't break if you're pushing directly against it with nothing in between. Sounds way smoother too.

Eow_TK
10-27-2009, 04:40 PM
I think this christmas ill try and get another cheap joy stick for the pots and just experiment with extending it. Itll give me something to do with the weather being so wet.

Im going to try and use thick rubber bands and maybe some springs to make it tighter and see how that goes.

squareusr
10-27-2009, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So why don't they use rubber belts anymore?

The logi i was talking about used really long "disk-sector levers" (about 7 centimeters) that the belt-wire was rolling over. Difficult to describe. You can even see them protruding from the enormous case when you google for a pic (it's the one with the double-oval base and the red knobs), the levers are what those black fairings are for. And the base is already huge.

Later, geared FFB sticks have mechanics that are smaller than a single motor of the old belt-driven ones and fit well within the base of a regular sized stick, without even partly filling up the volume. Price will scale likewise.

F19_Orheim
10-28-2009, 01:58 AM
aaaaa this old Log FFB, I have one in my attic... it is HUGE and FFB c r a z y!! never did care for it though.


http://lowstandart.net/images/notbot01.jpg

Reasons why The Wingman Force doesn't worj in 64bit.

the Wingman Force does not have the ability toTperform effects that are being used in current games, and with every advancement in the LGS software, we had to make more patches to eek even the barest compatibility with modern games. With the move to 64 bit, and the change of how memory and information paths were sent on the computer, we couldn't effectively continue to patch and add acceptable feedback to that device on x64 oses. The Wingman Force does not receive feedback effects from the computer like current feedback devices, but instead has to load each effect into memory then execute from there, and that memory can get constrained quickly, especially with modern effects. No game works like this now.

Frankthetank36
10-28-2009, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by squareusr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So why don't they use rubber belts anymore?

The logi i was talking about used really long "disk-sector levers" (about 7 centimeters) that the belt-wire was rolling over. Difficult to describe. You can even see them protruding from the enormous case when you google for a pic (it's the one with the double-oval base and the red knobs), the levers are what those black fairings are for. And the base is already huge.

Later, geared FFB sticks have mechanics that are smaller than a single motor of the old belt-driven ones and fit well within the base of a regular sized stick, without even partly filling up the volume. Price will scale likewise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So with modern FFB sticks if you're pushing one way and the motor is pushing the other, how do the gears not strip? Or at least how does the motor not break? I mean, either the mechanism's gonna give or the person's gonna give, and you'd have to be a pretty weak person to give.

Frankthetank36
10-28-2009, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by squareusr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So why don't they use rubber belts anymore?

The logi i was talking about used really long "disk-sector levers" (about 7 centimeters) that the belt-wire was rolling over. Difficult to describe. You can even see them protruding from the enormous case when you google for a pic (it's the one with the double-oval base and the red knobs), the levers are what those black fairings are for. And the base is already huge.

Later, geared FFB sticks have mechanics that are smaller than a single motor of the old belt-driven ones and fit well within the base of a regular sized stick, without even partly filling up the volume. Price will scale likewise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So with modern FFB sticks if you're pushing one way and the motor is pushing the other, how do the gears not strip? Or at least how does the motor not break? I mean, either the mechanism's gonna give or the person's gonna give, and you'd have to be a pretty weak person to give. I can see how the belts would reduce the load on the motor while still providing some force feedback, but the gear directly transmits both the forces of the motor and the person using the stick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

squareusr
10-28-2009, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
So with modern FFB sticks if you're pushing one way and the motor is pushing the other, how do the gears not strip?

Why would you assume that to be a problem? Electric motors are not combustion engines, they are perfectly able to deliver controlled torque while standing still. And the electronics of the stick won't feed big currents anyway

They even make motors specifically designed for this task (http://www.johnsonmotor.com/mediando/index.php?IdTreeGroup=49&IdProduct=1258), focus on static torque and only keep ability for higher RPM as a side effect.
But i don't think there is any stick on the market that still use motors that big, just take a look at this comparison between the motors of a first generation Logitech (Wingman Force) and that of a second generation Logitech (Force 3D), the latter even including the gear meachanism (btw this does not necessarily mean that the old stick delivered bigger forces, the wires on the big motor would be much thicker if the old stick was designed to tap the full potential of the motor) :

http://immaterialien.de/pics/stick/comparison.jpeg
(black parts on the small one is the whole gearing mechanism, metal parts on the big ones are unrelated to logitech)


Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
I can see how the belts would reduce the load on the motor while still providing some force feedback, but the gear directly transmits both the forces of the motor and the person using the stick.

Same for the belts, at least on the Logi design i know, they are not designed to slip. It's the same thing, "electric motors can apply static torque".

robtek1957
10-29-2009, 04:44 AM
Owning a g940 System for about a month now and a MS FFB2 for a few years i can say for shure that the g940 is more powerful.
Unfortunately the quality from Logitech seems not equal to the pricetag.
I had to send my system back yesterday because of jumping output from the rudder pedals.
Thats bad because now my flying sucks without FFB and i always stall the p40 in a turning fight with my x52.
I then switched to the msffb2 and while that improved my flying a bit the lack of buttons was a disadvantage.
Also the forces from the guns and from the bouncing where too strong while the rudder Forces seemed too easy.
I can't wait to get the g040 back and really hope that the rudder fault was a one time thing.

Bearcat99
10-29-2009, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
What does FFB do for your gaming experience, is it just rumble? I've read here that it doesn't work great in Il-2 or something, but I don't really know what it is so I dunno.

I never was a fan of the gunshake.. and in this sim I actually have FFB turned off because when you Winkey out of the sim and come back you loose your FFB.. but if you turn FFB off in the sim yo still have your stick forces.. and to me thats where FFB shines best.. I dont get the stall buffet.. (because I have the sims FFB turned off) but I do get tension on the stick.. and that tension changes .. if I have damage.. or a heavy load.. even from plane to plane.. IMO FFB does stuff no spring could ever do..

Woke_Up_Dead
10-29-2009, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:


I never was a fan of the gunshake.. and in this sim I actually have FFB turned off because when you Winkey out of the sim and come back you loose your FFB.. but if you turn FFB off in the sim yo still have your stick forces.. and to me thats where FFB shines best.. I dont get the stall buffet.. (because I have the sims FFB turned off) but I do get tension on the stick.. and that tension changes .. if I have damage.. or a heavy load.. even from plane to plane.. IMO FFB does stuff no spring could ever do..

Wasn't there a way to turn off JUST the gun-shake and still keep the stall buffet and other effects? Something about deleting certain files from IL2? I don't have the game installed right now, so I can't check.