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Skoshi Tiger
07-13-2005, 10:55 AM
I was re-reading one of the Osprey books 'The multi Role P51 Mustang' when I found a quote by Stan Farmiloe, a pilot in No 234 Squadron that flew Mustang IIIs towards the end of the war.

At one point he states -

"Our main concern when flying Mustangs was the near-impossibility of making a safe ditching - and we almost daily flew at zero feet across the North Sea to Denmark and Holland. A Spitfire could be safely ditched, but we never heard of a Mustang pilot surviving such a forced landing"

Well, as we have been given a MkIII in the latest patch, I immediately got into the QMB chose a Mustang III, killed the engine and made a successful ditching on my first attempt.

Hmmm! I thought as I got into my raft and floated away from my rapidly sinking mustang, either Stan was worrying unnecessarily or the modelling of the ditching was off.

This leads to a couple of questions-

Are the planes crash landing characteristics individually modelled or is there a generic profile for all the aircraft?

Has anyone have any evidence that contradicts Stans account?

That scoop on the belly of the mustang would cause a huge amount of deceleration when the plane touched the water and would probably case the plane to pitch forward on contact.

Any thoughts on this topic?

spitfire22287
07-13-2005, 11:33 AM
What Stan said is correct. The Mustang was a nightmare to ditch, if at all. Not only did the belly scoop rapidly deccelerate the plane, it also immediately filled the entire plane with water, causing it to sink like a stone within seconds. Your chances of getting out safely in time and not getting sucked under were slim to say the least. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif'

The ideal way to ditch a Mustang would be to slow it down enough, dip a wing into the water and have the sudden decceleration on that side cartwheel he plane and have it land on the water. Though still not perfect, the fact that the scoop just caused water to enter at a "normal" rate gave you much more time to get out and away before the plane went under.

B-24's were apparently also reputed to be nightmares for ditching.

I can't say much about the Il-2 FM for ditching the Mustang, but I imagine that such specific ditching characerisitics of the Mustang would not be modelled in favor of a "standard" perhaps? Any one else care to shed some light on this?

nakamura_kenji
07-13-2005, 11:44 AM
maybe smaller wing area work against?

Chuck_Older
07-13-2005, 12:08 PM
My F-51 pilot's manual is at home, but the procedure for ditching was to approach the water with one wing low- a shallow bank turn

When that wing tip struck the water, the rudder was kicked hard over to that side, making the plane slew around

The pilot is advised to have all connections to the a/c severed, as the plane will sink in 2 seconds


Although this is for an F-51, the P-51 is essenstially the same aircraft and some were even fitted with WWII era equipment such as the N-9 gunsights instead of the K-14. These were called "early" models, and it is my opinion that 'early' models also refer to P-51s that were re-designated F-51s in 1946. The manual was printed in 1952

AerialTarget
07-13-2005, 12:44 PM
Yes, I was somewhat disappointed that ditching in the game is a safe proceedure regardless of individual aircraft quirks. The P-38 Lighning pilot's manual says that water landings must be done with gear up, because gear down water landings are invariably fatal. I have no clue why.

IL2-chuter
07-13-2005, 01:32 PM
. . . AND . . . You're not supposed to be able to throttle-on split-esse a P-47 at less than 10,000ft., in RL you run out of altitude, a combination of fantastic speed build up and pilot g and strength limitations.

Oh, yeah - the topic . . . P-51 ditching ranks right up there with B-24 belly landings. (What's the first thing you do to prepare a B-24 for a belly landing? Put the gear down, no exceptions!)

VW-IceFire
07-13-2005, 02:59 PM
Tempest had the same problem...the large nose radiator grabbed water quickly and made the plane sink or flip on landing. Not modeled in game...no plane has more than a basic attribute for landing on water.

I still think its not bad anyways as previous games that I'd played in the flight sim genre were: Touch water = dead.

NAFP_supah
07-14-2005, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
My F-51 pilot's manual is at home, but the procedure for ditching was to approach the water with one wing low- a shallow bank turn

When that wing tip struck the water, the rudder was kicked hard over to that side, making the plane slew around

The pilot is advised to have all connections to the a/c severed, as the plane will sink in 2 seconds


Although this is for an F-51, the P-51 is essenstially the same aircraft and some were even fitted with WWII era equipment such as the N-9 gunsights instead of the K-14. These were called "early" models, and it is my opinion that 'early' models also refer to P-51s that were re-designated F-51s in 1946. The manual was printed in 1952

Man! Wouldn't you get thrown about in the cockpit really badly without your seatharnass on? Then again a few bruises or fractures are better then drowning in the thing offcourse http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MS_Siwarrior
07-14-2005, 10:16 AM
Just saw Supahs sig and imagine ditching a Me262 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Ruy Horta
07-14-2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
"Our main concern when flying Mustangs was the near-impossibility of making a safe ditching - and we almost daily flew at zero feet across the North Sea to Denmark and Holland. A Spitfire could be safely ditched, but we never heard of a Mustang pilot surviving such a forced landing"

The Mustang suffers from the same problem as the Hurricane, the belly air intake would function as a scoop, pulling the aircraft under, instead of skidding over the surface.

So it is not as much about taking on water and sinking, but the hydrodynamic properties causing a nose down attitude.

The imperial war museum released a DVD which as a bonus carries a WW2 RAF ditching course for Spits and Hurricanes.

9th_Spitin
07-14-2005, 10:43 AM
Those pilots that had to fly combat in a P-51 over water had some big balls. Just take a small bowl or cup and run it accross water in a fast sweeping motion and see how much drag it produces. The scoops on the Tempest and P-40 were bad, but the pilot could drop the tail in the water 1st to slow it down some, the 51's scoop is so low and so central that it would be the 1st thing to touch the water.