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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:39 AM
Were there any? or it was a post war implementation? Even early jet fighters like the 262 or Gloster Meteor didn´t have this kind of system?

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:39 AM
Were there any? or it was a post war implementation? Even early jet fighters like the 262 or Gloster Meteor didn´t have this kind of system?

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 09:43 AM
The first ejector seat was builded in a swedish fighter, somewhere in 1942 or 1943. The first actual usage, I don't know. might be after the war.

There was a thread on that a while back.

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2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
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measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:00 AM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- The first ejector seat was builded in a swedish
- fighter, somewhere in 1942 or 1943. The first actual
- usage, I don't know. might be after the war.
-

I've heard that they first implemented it in Swedish helicopter, and test was succesful, however the test pilot sadly get sliced during the test /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:51 AM
I remember reading that the He 162 Salamander had an ejection seat.


Spectrum is Green!

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:24 AM
The He280 had an ejection seat and it had to be used. The 280 first flew in April 1941.

Swedish seats http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/text/saabejec.htm



Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- The first ejector seat was builded in a swedish
- fighter, somewhere in 1942 or 1943. The first actual
- usage, I don't know. might be after the war.
-
-




"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 11:44 AM
don t forget the Do335 and He219

I have a book bout the 219 with all the testing to make it operational You also can find some pilot stories who used that device to escape from their planes.

regards

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:37 PM
even the Me262 has an ejection seat, theres one in munich, go check it out

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:44 PM
But initially, as in FB, pilots had to bail out "manually" from the 262, isn´t it?...although I think I read somewhere that the 262 had some kind of controlled explosives to eject the canopy automatically before bailing out...

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:47 PM
lol, well also keep in mind about IL2 is that all the canopys "pop" off before they eject instead of slide back...

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:52 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif that´s true...I forgot about that...What was normally done? Just slide back the canopy or open it and jump out the plane? Or were there emergency procedures in case the canopy was blocked?

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:53 PM
I understand US had a few working prototypes, but none were implemented until after the war .... also had an eject mechanism for helicopter that used explosive bolts to free rotors before ejection sequence .. they opted against it ..

cc

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:52 PM
Kajari wrote:
- even the Me262 has an ejection seat, theres one in
- munich, go check it out
-
-

MYTH

The a/c is W.Nr. 500071, an A-1a, and was given back by the Swiss in 1957. The Swiss quired the a/c when Hans Guido Mutke of 9./JG7 landed in Switzerland 25 April 1945.

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:00 PM
Do-335 also experimented with ejection seats.

The Luftwaffe experimented with ejection seats on FW190, but did not implement this operationally.

I believe the He-219 was to have had one as well as the He-162.

I don't believe ejection seats were ever used in actuall combat during WWII AFAIK.




http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:03 PM
The He219 had ejection seats, for pilot and RO. The seats of the He219 were used during combat operations.

.


FW190fan wrote:
-
-
- I believe the He-219 was to have had one as well as
- the He-162.
-
- I don't believe ejection seats were ever used in
- actuall combat during WWII AFAIK.
-
-




"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:08 PM
Yes they had early ejection seats in ww2 planes. I saw a interview with a german pilot who had to use his. I dont remember what model plane he was flying but it was a prop job. He was flying a night fighter mission. While climbing toward bombers he was shot at and hit. The cockpit filled with smoke he reached for lever pulled it, and was propelled out. He landed safely.

The ejection seat he used was filled with explosives for propellent. The german engineers had to carefully measure how much to use otherwise it could break the pilots back. They showed alot of captured german test footage of ejection seat testing. Looked like model rocket taking off.

Also, they used a special parachute designed for high-speed deployment It looks like a fishing net. When air fills it the net expands and traps air. This way the chute doesn't tear apart as would a standard chute would.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:15 PM
The ejection seat in the He219 and Do335 used compressed air Tom. The RO in the He219 had to eject first.


tom_007007 wrote:
- Yes they had early ejection seats in ww2 planes. I
- saw a interview with a german pilot who had to use
- his. I dont remember what model plane he was flying
- but it was a prop job. He was flying a night fighter
- mission. While climbing toward bombers he was shot
- at and hit. The cockpit filled with smoke he reached
- for lever pulled it, and was propelled out. He
- landed safely.
-
- The ejection seat he used was filled with explosives
- for propellent. The german engineers had to
- carefully measure how much to use otherwise it could
- break the pilots back. They showed alot of captured
- german test footage of ejection seat testing. Looked
- like model rocket taking off.
-
-




"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:20 PM
I was quoting from the engeneer who was interviewed and actually developed this particular seat that was used in this instance. It was explosive charge in this case not compressed air.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:32 PM
MiloMorai wrote:

- The He219 had ejection seats, for pilot and RO. The
- seats of the He219 were used during combat
- operations.


Wow, didn't know they were deployed during an actual combat mission. Any more info on this?



http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:43 PM
Swedish fighter/ground attacker J21 had ejection seat
to not slice the pilot on the prop. At first they
experimented with explosive bolts to blast away the prop
blades, but an ejection seat was found better...
What engine it is? A Daimler-Benz DB 605B, 1475 hp

J21 was also one of very few prop planes successfully
converted to jet propulsion

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/images/saab_j21_01.jpg

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:55 PM
FW190fan wrote:

-
- Wow, didn't know they were deployed during an actual
- combat mission. Any more info on this?
-

From "Heinkel He219" by Roland Remp, ISBN 0-7643-1229-4

Dispite what Tom says about explosives, the ejection seats used in the 219 were operated by compressed air.

On the night of 5-6 Sept. '43 at ~1.45 pilot Oblt Heinz Strunning(WIA) and RO Hptm Frank Dieter(KIA) of 3./NJG1 but the seats did not work and had to a conventional bailout. On the night of 20-21 Oct. '43, W.Nr. 190054 was lost to return fire from a bomber. The bodies of Lt. Schon and Uffz Marzotke were found near their ejection seats about 2 miles from the a/c crash site.

If there was an air leak the seat would not operate correctly, usually having the seat not clearing the rails.

"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:32 PM
Very nice info, thx to all of you...BTW, does someone know if footages or MPEGS can be found in the web about that? It would be really cool...I´ll try with google, and if I find anything, I´ll feed back for those who might be interested...

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:41 PM
OK guys, I´ve found some interesting things about this topic...here are the links...

www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm (http://www.nasm.si.edu/nasm/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm)

http://airmodeller.tripod.com/48GrHe280.htm

This one is particularly interesting...it talks about a swedish plane I´ve never heard of and calims to have the first world ejection seat back in 1941...

http://www.walruscarpenter.com/rivets.html

Enjoy!



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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 05:16 AM
yeah what they did was unlock the canopy using (however it was locked) slide it back, and jump out (usually trying to jump out when the plane is in the process of turning upsidedown, this allowed them the centrifical force to help them get out and get them away from the airplane and keep from being smacked by the wings or what not... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 08:49 AM
Was there a problem with the Do 335 canopy?

IIRC, it ripped off too quickly.

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Cpt.LoneRanger
06-19-2003, 10:24 AM
The first aircraft in the world equipped with a **serial** ejection seat was the Heinkel He 280 Version from 1943.

This was the first ejection seat, in a sense of a rescue seat, with implemented chute and all.


The first catapulting seat was tested in 1940 by the German Luftwaffe. These were merely helps for getting out of the jet driven aircraft, but the pilot had still to free himself from the seat, and, of course, open the canopy himself before bailing out.
The first seats were driven by compressed air and the first human tests in 1941 led to 27 broken bones in the test person named Wilhelm Buß.

In the following month, the Nazis decided to no longer use volunteers for the test, but then turned on the people helt in the KZs.

1942 a save version entered service and was first implemented in test versions of the He280, then in the first prototypes of the Me262. Over 1000 seats were produced and built into jet driven airplanes and saved the lives of over 60 pilots. One of the first in combat ejected pilots was Otto Fries, a He280-Pilot who was shot down by a Mosquito.

1946 it was adopted and tested by the US AirForce.

I also read the first US-fighter equipped with a save ejection seat was the Sabre, but I cannot confirm this.

greets
Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 12:41 PM
According to Eric Brown, RN test pilot, the Dornier canopy came off so fast that several pilots lost arms in the process - they were still grapsing the release handles.

Also the Arado 235 (twin jet job) was meant to incorporate ejection seats.



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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 01:29 PM
I found this quote about ejection seat use:

* The He-162 finally began to see combat in mid-April. On 19 April, the pilot of a British Royal Air Force (RAF) fighter who had been captured by the Germans informed his interrogators that he had been shot down by a jet fighter, whose description was clearly that of a He-162. The Heinkel and its pilot were lost as well, shot down by an RAF Tempest fighter on the way back to base.

On 20 April, a Luftwaffe pilot successfully ejected from a He-162, though the reason for the hasty exit from his aircraft was not recorded. One possibility is that he simply ran out of fuel. The He-162's half-hour endurance was simply not enough, and at least two of JG-1's pilots were killed making "dead-stick" landings after exhausting their fuel. *

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 03:02 PM
MYTH, MYTH, MYTH The handles were not attached to the canopy but to the cockpit walls.


foxhound31 wrote:
- According to Eric Brown, RN test pilot, the Dornier
- canopy came off so fast that several pilots lost
- arms in the process - they were still grapsing the
- release handles.
-
-





http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 03:30 PM
They were moved during the testing phase, from up around the canopy bars to lower. Not saying specific locations as I can't be buggered to dig'em up from memory. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cheers,
Fred

No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 05:40 PM
Zyzbot wrote:

- On 20 April, a Luftwaffe pilot successfully ejected
- from a He-162, though the reason for the hasty exit
- from his aircraft was not recorded. One possibility
- is that he simply ran out of fuel.

That pilot was Rudolf Schmitt.

I/JG54^Lukas
He 162A-2 Cockpit Modeler

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 06:00 PM
I dunno about the accuracy of the source but:

"German tests of escape systems started as early as 1938. Initial designs used compressed air for propulsion, but this approach was abandoned due to high weight, low performance, and maintenance problems. Their next step was apparently to investigate propellant powered seats. A parachutist by the name of Busse made the first live ejection from a propellant powered seat. Propellant powered seats were operational in German aircraft by 1944.

As an example of the degree of development of escape system propulsion in Germany during World War II, the Dornier DO335 presented both a unique aircraft from an aerodynamic view, as well as from the escape system propulsion point of view. The aircraft having both a tractor and pusher airscrew, as well as dorsal and ventral centerline fins, presented a unique challenge to the aircrew who needed to escape in flight. To that end, this aircraft utilized explosive bolts and other propellant driven devices to jettison the dorsal tail and the pusher airscrew, as well as the ejector seat. It is not known if this system was ever used. Other German aircraft fitted with the propellant driven ejector seats included the ME-163B, ME-262, Heinkel HE-162, HE-219 (with the two seats), and HE-280."

got it from here:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/herker/ejection/eject_paper.html


And they got a links page there to:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/herker/ejection/other.html

Roy Baty
III/7/JG2

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Message Edited on 06/19/0301:37PM by roybaty

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 06:08 PM
So, as I see, there´s no a common opinion on what was the first ejection seat...at least, the first operational and mass produced?

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 06:18 PM
All I know is that any mechanic that tries to put one in my P-39 is going to get the whipping of his life!

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 06:26 PM
About twenty years ago I visited the Paul Garber center outside of Washington DC where I saw a lot of neat stuff. At they time they were restoring a FW-190F. They told us that in restoring the cockpit they discovered an explosive activated ejector seat which they didn't know was there. They considered themselves lucky that they did not accidentally activate it and hurt somebody.

I know not what course others may choose, but as for me, give me computer games or give me television!

XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 06:33 PM
A little bit of adrenaline makes life more interesting!

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XyZspineZyX
06-19-2003, 11:25 PM
Aparently the ejector seat in the He-162 had a nasty habit of leaving things like your arms behind!

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XyZspineZyX
06-20-2003, 01:52 AM
I will have to re-read the book put out by the NASM on the restoration of the Fw190-F8 but I don't remember seeing anything about an ejection seat. What they did find was a 20mm shell for 'blowing' back the canopy since it could not be cranked back by the pilot when he wanted to escape from the a/c.


RexFeral wrote:
- About twenty years ago I visited the Paul Garber
- center outside of Washington DC where I saw a lot of
- neat stuff. At they time they were restoring a
- FW-190F. They told us that in restoring the cockpit
- they discovered an explosive activated ejector seat
- which they didn't know was there. They considered
- themselves lucky that they did not accidentally
- activate it and hurt somebody.
-
- I know not what course others may choose, but as for
- me, give me computer games or give me television!




http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/air_power/ap18a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 02:31 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
- I will have to re-read the book put out by the NASM
- on the restoration of the Fw190-F8 but I don't
- remember seeing anything about an ejection seat.
- What they did find was a 20mm shell for 'blowing'
- back the canopy since it could not be cranked back
- by the pilot when he wanted to escape from the a/c.
-

Oh. The girl that was giving us the tour may not have known what she was talking about.

P.S. I went on that tour as a part of my honeymoon.

I know not what course others may choose, but as for me, give me computer games or give me television!

XyZspineZyX
06-21-2003, 09:19 AM
You are correct on the leaving the arms behind bit Everton, the first trials they found as the release was mounted to the canopy and as you operated it the canopy used to go first removing your arms in the process/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif , also the first seats used neither gas nor explosives, the just had a long arm on a fulcrum, the seat on one end and a compressed spring on the other, actuating it removed a pin that released the spring and tossed you out of the seat, crude but it worked. the first one tested was 1910 in the states see below


http://showcase.netins.net/web/herker/ejection/eject_paper.html


http://www.martin-baker.co.uk/histintro.htm