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Avivion
02-15-2010, 02:52 AM
Been away from IL-2 46 for a while and am now back !

Noticed that the rudder for all planes tends to NOT return fully to neutral after I twist the stick either way. There appears to be a slight displacement in the direction that I deflects it (after return stick to neutral). Did a re-install and still the same (4.08m version). Anyone any idea what could be the issue here? I have no problem with this at all in PF. Thanks.

M_Gunz
02-15-2010, 03:16 AM
You might try some WD-40 on the stick itself. Check your calibration screen to see.

Avivion
02-15-2010, 03:24 AM
my joystick works perfect, in all other sims. calibration is okay. Has anyone seen this before?

Tully__
02-15-2010, 04:09 AM
Do NOT use WD40 or any other oil based lubricant on plastic parts.

If you have trim applied it will deflect the rudder a bit. Not likely the issue as you mention it depends on which direction you apply the stick.

Check your filtering and deadzone settings in the game. This might occur if one of those is not set to zero.

How are you determining that the rudder remains deflected, by the slip indicator, by how the aircraft is flying or by looking at the rudder in external view?

Romanator21
02-15-2010, 04:29 AM
On some aircraft the rudder is displaced automatically to help counteract torque. Sort of like trim, but not always controllable from the c0ckpit

The best way to check input is by the input menu of the game. You will see axes for Roll, Pitch, and Yaw. Red is input (what the stick does), Green is output (or what the game uses to control the plane).

If while your stick is centered Red and Green are not centered, then you have a problem. Try to recalibrate.

Avivion
02-15-2010, 07:33 AM
Thanks folks. My hardware setting is alll set to default, except that I have to use a little filtering which seems to help the rudder return closer to the real centre. If filtering set at zero, the problem seems more obvious.

I gauge the rudder from the external back view, twisting the stick left, release, then right, and release. Each time the rudder returns to close to the centre, but you could tell there is a slight displacement according to the last twist direction. In PF, the rudder returns to centre perfect. Same stick.

As a result, I kept feeling the plane (P51D) seems somewhat "touchy" in control, some kind of oscillating tendency in turning fights. The P51D in PF feels more steady.

thefruitbat
02-15-2010, 07:37 AM
if you have gone from patch 3.xxx as in PF to il2 1946, this is due to refinements in the flight model, brought in with the 4.xxx series of patchs.

x6BL_Brando
02-15-2010, 11:20 AM
+1 on Tully's advice. Anything that leaves a wet lubricant on the surfaces will act as a dust magnet even if it doesn't etch the surface of the plastic.

From the info you're giving - works in PF, works in all other games, then I think it's the trim settings in-game you need to address. Map keys or rotaries to rudder trim and use the ball as your reference to correct yaw.

B

Lt_Letum
02-15-2010, 11:41 AM
Check this isn't caused by setting a deadzone in IL2.
I have seen this cause that kind of issue.

Use the curve sliders to set a dead zone instead.

Avivion
02-15-2010, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by thefruitbat:
if you have gone from patch 3.xxx as in PF to il2 1946, this is due to refinements in the flight model, brought in with the 4.xxx series of patchs.

The later versions' FM seems to tend towards a slight more unstable handling in general, wonder if this is closer to the real FM.

Romanator21
02-15-2010, 05:30 PM
I gauge the rudder from the external back view, twisting the stick left, release, then right, and release. Each time the rudder returns to close to the centre, but you could tell there is a slight displacement according to the last twist direction. In PF, the rudder returns to centre perfect. Same stick.

You shouldn't use outside view to gauge your stick position. As stated above, some airplanes have rudder automatically offset a specific amount. Use the input adjustment screen in your game to see if it's really a problem with your stick.

The P-51 oscillation is a well known issue. It occurs in the Corsair and Hellcat as well. Personally, I feel it is a matter of the pilot and input settings (PIO - pilot induced oscillation). If I'm conscious about my control inputs I have less of a problem with this than when I get overly excited.

Nevertheless, it's too late and the can of worms has been opened again. 20 pager to follow.

M_Gunz
02-15-2010, 07:34 PM
Sorry about the WD-40 suggestion, perhaps dry graphite lube will do. Some time spent on the stick settings
menu in IL2 should sort out whether you have a hardware problem or it is something else. The thing about
trouble-shooting is that you actually take the steps and don't assume that the stick is fine because of how
it works in other games.

Back during the PF time there was a very good and long thread about IL2 auto-rudder and the inability to
hold wings level in a stall. So good for us and probably a matter of pride in their work, Maddox Games
adapted the SOW flight engine to work with IL2 models (no distributed mass in the IL2 3D model as we were
told, but only about the 3D models which leaves other more simplified ways) and we can since fly a stall.

There was also at the time note that to keep a plane banked you had to hold aileron. Try that now.

Lastly, as of 4.07 the handling code took a step up in quality and some other quirks went away.

But of course the only thing that most posters noticed was the planes are LESS ON RAILS THAN BEFORE,
and somehow that's not a good thing!

Urufu_Shinjiro
02-16-2010, 09:19 AM
Graphite's a bad idea too, it's a conductor.

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 05:35 AM
I bought IL-2 1946 in early November I think. And one thing that has been constant is that, if I use any kind of deadzone or change sensitivity using IL-2's ingame settings, it offsets it to the left when the device is actually centered.

Example, if I put deadzone to say, 50%, on the Pitch and Roll (main stick) axes, it shouldn't move at all, right? Just be centered, until I move past 50%. But no. As long as I move around a bit, it is centered, yes. But when my joystick is centered for real, I can see how the green square (the one showing the input in IL-2) goes up and to the left, a little bit. Moving stick away from center makes that thing center again.

Same behaviour having less than 100% sensitivity in the center, even if no deadzone.

In the cockpit, it can be seen by (if having say, sensitivity 5 for the center), if the stick is centered and I'm flying straight and level, but the plane is rolling gently to the right (old plane, no aileron trim, wrong prop speed whatever), I try to compensate for this by gently moving the stick slowly to the LEFT - then the in-game stick (and the plane) can be seen MOVING TO THE RIGHT first, a little, and then it starts moving left, as I move the stick even a bit further. This because, when the stick was centered, IL-2 made it move to the left a bit in game. And when I'm moving it to the left, it stops being offset to the left, and the filtering kicks in (moving it back to the center, rightwards).

It's insane. It matters not what device I use, what axis I bind to what. It affects everything, including rudder pedals (yes, one can see the rudder offsetting itself to the left a little bit when the rudder is centered).

I've seen another guy have the same problem. And no one believes him or me. They try to explain that it's just how awesomely real IL-2 is modeled and there's torque this and that without even bothering reading or testing. As if I don't know all these things.

Anyway, I have to set up every single controller without using anything but 100% sensitivity in IL-2 to avoid this offset centering, as I can't stand it. It is small enough for many people probably not to notice it, especially if they do dogfighting instead of flying straight for long periods at times.

Anyone reading this, do try it out and see if it behaves like this for you too. Note that the IL2 Joycontrol app does not exibit this behaviour, it's only the in game "Hardware" section one can see the two squares and how it misbehaves.

Opening poster, if this is the reason, then removing all filtering/deadzone and setting sensitivity to max in IL2, and then using your controllers profiler (if available) to tweak courving instead, should fix it.

Avivion
02-18-2010, 06:12 AM
Thanks for that, Mikk.

I'm using default settings now, and just trying to ignore the weird behaviour which thankfully isn't too pronounced.

I have PF, and the same stick works just great at default settings, no stickiness/offset, whatsoever. Plus I find the enemy fighters use A2A tactics that are more fun to fight with.

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 06:36 AM
So you really compared the behaviour in Pacific Fighters and in 1946? Or did I misunderstand?

If so, it's true then, that you see the bug in 1946?

FoolTrottel
02-18-2010, 10:54 AM
Anyone reading this, do try it out and see if it behaves like this for you too.
Tried it, doesn't do it over here.
No movement to the right when stick is gently pushed left...

Aileron settings: 27 38 52 63 69 75 83 88 93 100
No filtering, no dead band.

It was a short test though...

Can you please specify exact conditions for this test?
- QMB? Map?
- Aircraft type?
- Height, speed etc...

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 11:32 AM
There's a simple way to test.

First in hardware options, set deadzone to something huge, like 50 (for stick pitch and roll axes both, though only the roll is necessary to see anything). Here already,the red square, if I recall correctly, is where the joystick is indicated to be. The green one is where IL-2 in-game output will be (after being altered by filtering/deadzone settings etc). Assuming the stick itself is calibrated correctly, when centered, the green square will move a little bit up and left (about one pixel each off-center), and when the joystick is moved away from center, green square goes to dead center (where it sould have been the whole time).

To see in flight, choose any aircraft. Don't necessarily have to be flying but it would be more obvious then. Again, see if the in game stick moves even the slightest when the actual joystick is centered vs when it is not. It should slightly move in the cockpit to the left and tiny bit forward (very little, but it is visible in the planes I tried it in, zoom in and keep the mouse still to see very well) when the joystick is centered, and move a bit to the right and back when moving the stick around anywhere but center (within the deadband range).

For me (and a couple of others now I suspect who have noticed this) it presents itself whenever sensitivity is not set to 100 for the leftmost (most central) setting of the courve tweaking in game. Because using courves with less sensitivity, the processed in-game response should be less than the joystick near the center (i.e. more centered than the actual stick when near center). Except it goes offset up left a bit when real stick is truly centered.

If you can also see this, I think we have a proper case to present to Maddox Games / Team Daidalos and finally I could get to tweak my stuff properly for once (how I wish for that).

BillSwagger
02-18-2010, 03:19 PM
Have you tried hitting the "neutral" keys for rudder trim?

The problem you describe is similar to one i had, and it had something to do with the input from rudder trim. It makes no sense, but it seems the game picks up the input while the game loads or possibly saves a trim setting from previous games.

If its not that, its a bug.


Bill

"bill.swagger is bad gamer"

FoolTrottel
02-18-2010, 03:42 PM
First in hardware options, set deadzone to something huge, like 50 (for stick pitch and roll axes both, though only the roll is necessary to see anything).
Sorry, but I won't try that.
That's not a serious approach.

Why on earth would I set it to 50?
Just because I can? That's just silly!

Do you know what dead zone is there for?

MikkOwl
02-18-2010, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
Have you tried hitting the "neutral" keys for rudder trim?

The problem you describe is similar to one i had, and it had something to do with the input from rudder trim. It makes no sense, but it seems the game picks up the input while the game loads or possibly saves a trim setting from previous games.

If its not that, its a bug.

I have tried this before (and everything else), and it did not influence anything.


Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
Sorry, but I won't try that.
That's not a serious approach.

Why on earth would I set it to 50?
Just because I can? That's just silly!

Do you know what dead zone is there for?
Yes, I know what deadzone is for. No, you should not set it to 50 'because you can', but to see if a bug in the control system is there or not. IF you observe the behaviour I described, then it will be there also with even the default settings. It's just a hell of a lot faster and easier to see/check it beyond any doubt by using deadband.

And if system testing methodically, without respect to practical settings is a problem for you, then you can try just setting deadband to zero and setting the leftmost sensitivity low instead (say, 1 to 5, the same that Oleg himself uses, and many others).