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Dgirth
08-17-2008, 08:21 AM
Hello.

I have recently started playing IL-2 1946 and i must add it is the best flight sim i have ever played. I have read the Nugget's Guide and i gained much from it but i have a few questions i wish to ask.

When i dog fight or chasing fast bombers i seem to have a problem catching my target. The plane i have choosen to learn in is the Bf109.

When i position my plan on my targets six i find my target just stays out of range of me i try and stay right behind him but i can never seem to get closer enough to open up my guns. I have my convergence set to 220 i use auto prop pitch and fuel mixture as i dont understand how this works.

Am i right i thinking higher the prop pitch faster the plane can climb and close distance and same for mixture ? .

I would also wish to ask if anyone can link me to some IL-2 combat learning vidoes i did find some a while back but have lost the link.

Thank you for you time for reading my post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ytareh
08-17-2008, 08:43 AM
Even experienced pilots have trouble catching the AI (computer controlled planes ie all except yours if you fly offline)In short THEY CHEAT!They dont black out in turns ,never overheat etc etc You would have to pick a noticeably inferior opponent to catch him in a gentle continuous climb Never try and fight against an AI Zero-they are invincible!
Oh yes have you noticed how AI have a 'sixth sense' to tell when you are behind them .
When you progress to flying online in Hyperlobby you wont have to deal with this -but I wouldnt recommend trying it until you have LOTS of experience

Blindman-
08-17-2008, 12:43 PM
If you are creating your own missions then you might consider choosing slower planes and/or setting their waypoints with a slower speed.

I have found that the best way to get an AI fighter to get within guns range is to gain altitude while falling further behind and then turn 180 degrees. This will get him to turn around and come after you and give you a chance to get him within range. The distance you put between yourself and the AI hopefully gives you time to turn around to meet him. Be aware, if the AI is Vet or Ace skill then they will beat you on a head-on shot so don't head straight at them. (After much experimentation I found that the following works well for me: I usually avoid the head-on by flying to the left of the oncoming enemy by about 15 degrees, then when they are about 1 km away I push my nose down to foil their aim further. As soon as they can no longer hit me I pull up and around, which usually gives me the drop on them. If they can turn real tight then I go into a lag pursuit to get on their 6.)

mortoma
08-17-2008, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by ytareh:
Even experienced pilots have trouble catching the AI (computer controlled planes ie all except yours if you fly offline)In short THEY CHEAT!They dont black out in turns ,never overheat etc etc You would have to pick a noticeably inferior opponent to catch him in a gentle continuous climb Never try and fight against an AI Zero-they are invincible!
Oh yes have you noticed how AI have a 'sixth sense' to tell when you are behind them .
When you progress to flying online in Hyperlobby you wont have to deal with this -but I wouldnt recommend trying it until you have LOTS of experience Huh!?!?!? AI Zeroes are invincible?? Not even close. I shoot them down all the time. One time I was in a Beaufighter, which is not what most would call a manueverable aircraft and I was surrounded by four Zeroes. I shot them all down easily and was not damaged by them except for a fuel leak or two. It was a Dgen career campaign. I love to shoot down Zeroes and Oscars and I'm good at it.

Plus I really don't have problems closing in on enemy aircraft, nor do I find I have to go against AI opponents that fly inferior planes. As a matter of fact, I very often go against AI in planes vastly superior to the one I am flying and come out on top most of the time. In many case they are in planes that have huge speed advantage. Maybe I'm just good or I have practiced a lot over the years.

Chris0382
08-17-2008, 02:01 PM
I increase the time-speed of the sim to 4x and yo-yo but Im not on full switch either so Im cheating also.

h009291
08-17-2008, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
...Huh!?!?!? AI Zeroes are invincible?? Not even close. I shoot them down all the time. One time I was in a Beaufighter, which is not what most would call a manueverable aircraft and I was surrounded by four Zeroes. I shot them all down easily and was not damaged by them except for a fuel leak or two. It was a Dgen career campaign. I love to shoot down Zeroes and Oscars and I'm good at it.

Plus I really don't have problems closing in on enemy aircraft, nor do I find I have to go against AI opponents that fly inferior planes. As a matter of fact, I very often go against AI in planes vastly superior to the one I am flying and come out on top most of the time. In many case they are in planes that have huge speed advantage. Maybe I'm just good or I have practiced a lot over the years.

You need to go ON-Line. TRy the same scenario(s). You'll be wondering what the heck just happened to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

M_Gunz
08-17-2008, 04:20 PM
Dgirth, what bombers you can't catch in a 109?

I see you write about climbing to catch, it is very easy to let your airspeed fall low in nose
high conditions and you can get stuck going slow that way. Climb by keeping your airspeed up
more than trying for steepness, get the nose down until you have speed even if the target is
above. This also goes for following your own flight out from takeoff, never just point your
nose at the others and think you can catch up or that they are cheating is why you can't. The
reason why is your flying which after you change you will catch up and have to throttle back
to not pass them.

K_Freddie
08-18-2008, 05:44 AM
Some bombers are fast (Boston, PE2) and they go 'like a bat out of hell'.

If they're on an inbound journey, climb in the opposite direction and catch them on the outbound leg. OR

You'll have to get your speed up in a gentle climb (~200ft per minute - Check your VSI). Just make sure you stay out of gun range to the one side. If you climb up on their 6, you'll be leaking like a sieve in no time.

The AI doesn't actually cheat, it just 'knows' how to get the best performance. You can also do this, after a bit of practice.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Xiolablu3
08-18-2008, 08:35 AM
Its wierd I never have trouble catching the AI planes, cheating or not?

Possibly you are doing something wrong, what exact model of the Bf109 are you flying? Pick something from the same year as your target if possible.

Like Max says, you are probably getting stuck in flying slow, try and climb at a fast speed and also get above your target, then dive down on him rather than chasing him on the level, you soon pick up a lot of speed in a dive.

Think about a yo-yo and try and dive on your target, shoot, then climb up above again, this way you can make many passes and the gunners will find it harder to hit you.

M_Gunz
08-18-2008, 10:20 AM
Unless he's chasing Arado's I can't think of a bomber faster than any of the 109's *can* go.

nose high flying and esp turns have been a staple of new players for over 10 years now in
many sims, or at least the ones who complain about speed that I've seen. Warbirds, AH, RB,
and more, once you get past the most arcade you have to know more than point it where you
want to go and give it full throttle.

It's almost always best to climb at above best climb rate speed, the specific power curves
show that best climb is not at best climb rate but somewhat faster. Or at least if I'm to
believe real pilot and aero sites and books it is.

Dgirth
08-18-2008, 11:55 AM
Thank you for the replyshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The advice is very helpful and i am now enjoying more success in IL-2 single player.

I have been flying the BF109 1940 in the single player campaign, I have now reduced my convergence to 160 for cannons and guns which is working great for diving down on the bombers with 1sec bursts.

Im getting owned online however lol, Which is to be expected, to i learn more about this sim.

I realy do wish i found this game at a sooner date i love the fact that it is a sim and has a steep learning curve plus the community here is damn awesome. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

I have a other question http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I have started to play around with the prop pitch abd fuel mixture, Is it wise to adjust these in combat to increase my overall power when chasing a bandit ?

thank you chaps http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crucislancer
08-18-2008, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Dgirth:
I have started to play around with the prop pitch abd fuel mixture, Is it wise to adjust these in combat to increase my overall power when chasing a bandit ?


Yes, but not for the bf109. Messing with the prop pitch on the 109 isn't advisable unless you know what you are doing. For most planes in the game, the prop pitch control is actually an RPM control, the prop pitch being automatically adjusted to get the correct RPM. For the 109, it actually controls the prop pitch, and without a good idea of how that affects your engine, you will over rev and blow your engine in a matter of seconds. Some of the 109 vets could give you an idea on how to work with it, I'm sure.

As far as other planes, particularly Russian planes, adjusting Prop pitch, mixture, and supercharger settings is a must to get maximum power in combat.

Stingray333
08-18-2008, 02:03 PM
A few things to keep in mind for closing the distance:

if you are below the bomber directly at his 6, drop your nose to pick up some airspeed, then level out. Make sure your plane is properly trimmed and that your "slip indicator" (a.k.a. little black ball) is centered. If your plane is not properly trimmed and you are skidding you are not going to be going as fast as you could be. You should be able to catch up to any bomber this way: nose down for a hundred meters to get some speed, level out, and fly straight and level with full throttle. If you cannot, your probably doing something wrong: combat flaps down, radiator full open, or skidding. You should now catch up below the bomber and can attack its underside. Watch the distance indicator closely to gauge if you are closing the distance. You may of course have to open the radiator to stop from overheating.

If you are not directly behind the bomber, do the same, drop your nose to pickup speed, level out, but estimate an intercept heading that gives you the geometrically shortest path to meet the bomber. Always flying with your gunsight on the bomber leads to you flying in an arc and can significantly increase the intercept time.

Also, use your WEP effectively. Are you ploughing through the air in a skid, trimmed nose down and holding the elevator back to keep straight, while having your nose up in a 15 degree climb and are only going 190 kmh? No amount of WEP is going to allow you to catch up and is only going to heat up your engine.

Are you flying level, trimmed properly, not skidding, flaps up, throttle at full and managed to get to ~400 kmh? Now kick in the WEP and suddenly you are cruising along at 500 kmh, nice and level and closing in on those bombers like a bat out of hell!

Dgirth
08-18-2008, 03:01 PM
Ah right, Trimmed! i not sure what your on about same for skidding. What do you mean by trimming the plane ? i have so much to learn. i have had my head in pages of ''How to fly IL2- web sites, I have not come across trimming and skidding as yet.

My brain is suffering from overload hehe

M_Gunz
08-18-2008, 06:22 PM
Different planes had ways to adjust the force on the stick, not all the same way either.
On 109 you can trim the elevator but not the rudder for example.
When an axis is trimmed you don't have to hold stick force on that axis.

First though it is best you learn what control deflections to use to fly straight since if
you use the wrong controls then you will trim wrong also and fly crooked. Example is many
times when the wings tilt you should use rudder to straighten up instead of side stick or a
combination of the two instead of just one. If you are going very slow, side stick will
cause the wing you are trying to bring up to stall and you will end up in near instant spin.

In 109 and most planes you will see a black ball in a kind of 'smiley' track. That is "The
Ball". When that ball is in the center of the track, your plane is almost always pointing
where it is going. Sometimes it is not since The Ball takes time to move and may get up to
one end of the track and hang there or you may be upside down or in some other unusual
condition so don't expect digital accuracy from The Ball -- but most all of the time you can
go by it and want the thing centered.
How? Rudder. The saying is "Step On The Ball". If The Ball is left then rudder left, for
example, and give it just enough to bring the The Ball back to center. When The Ball is in
the center then your flight is "coordinated", your plane is pointing where it is going.

When it is not, your plane is "in slip" or maybe "skidding" if you are in a turn and pointing
more towards the inside of the turn than it is going. Slip in a turn is when the plane is
pointing outside the path and if you are flying straight but not pointing along your path
then you are in slip no matter which side you point.

If you are in slip or skid when you shoot then your shots will not go where the sight points.
This may be just a little or it may be more and the longer the range the worse the result
unless you're so good you can slew the plane and make shots -- don't laugh cause it has been
done IRL by at least one P-51 pilot though in his case luck and guesswork made the shot.
His story was posted here months ago, btw.

When you are real slow to where sidestick is a bad idea and rudder is how you stay level,
don't go by The Ball. It's too slow. Go by the wings, if one drops then rudder away from
it to pick it up. On takeoffs and esp on the last part of landings remember that. Rudder.

Don't use trim for everything either. You can't use trim to dance on the rudder, it's not
fast enough. Don't follow every motion in a dogfight with trim but do try and trim elevator
for the speed your dogfight is going to be in general. Example is you are fast but will be
turning hard and this will slow you down so during the turn, trim nose up so that when you
are finished the turn you will be closer to trim than if you had left it set for fast.
And yes that is real as in historic as Bud Anderson wrote explicit in his memoirs about
using trim in combat to relieve stick forces the same way you would tune a radio while
driving a car, his choice of example. Just remember that if you will be changing speed
or power soon then you don't want to be trimming away from that now as trim is slower by
far than moving stick or rudder. That's why I say to trim for how you will be in a while.

In non-combat, general aviation, flying you trim for a steady condition that you will hold.
You don't want to be trimmed far to one end and suddenly need to be at the other as that
will get you in trouble and probably dead. So flight instructors will frown at any idea
of what trimming in combat represents -- okay most all of them will panic and freak right
out screaming how wrong it is. It was done but note it was done by men who did it with
care and knew what they were doing and didn't fork it up, or at least the ones that lived
didn't. Go here and edit->find trim to see what Bud says. (http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm)

The Trim a plane is in determines how it will fly hands-off, that's another use of the word.

If the plane changes speed or power or its internal loading moves then the trim changes and
you need to trim it again.

When accelerating or just reaching your steady speed you will change trim. The wings have
to be tilted up with respect to your flight path to make lift, this is Angle Of Attack.
The slower you go, the more AOA you need to hold the plane up. If you turn then you need
more AOA since your lift no longer points straight up. So there you are flying along at
some speed but with enough power to go faster, you push the nose down or climb. If you
push the nose down then you go faster which gets you more lift so you push a little bit
more nose down but not as much and every time, you trim (but in game you just trim nose
down a tiny bit more) until finally you don't go any faster without losing altitude, or
climb from not putting the nose down.
A super-shallow climb will stop your speed increase well short of what you can get properly
trimmed and level. You may not even notice without looking at the VSI, 10m on the speedbar
can take a good while when flying very slightly nose high and slowed down.

It is better to lose some altitude and gain speed which you can regain in a high speed
shallow climb (that you know you are doing) than to chug along at low speed and nose high
while wondering what is wrong with your plane. That may not seem to make complete sense
but it does when you take in that lift and drag differ with speed and altitude, but the
bits about altitude I'm not dealing with here. I've typed enough already.

You want aspirin or tylenol?

WTE_Galway
08-18-2008, 08:56 PM
A few hints on 109's against bombers ...

- conserve ammo and only fire when you have a good shot, you will know you are hitting by the "flashes and sparks" on the target, always shoot in convergence not too close or too far out

- as pointed out above keep the ball centered with a good kick of right rudder when shooting in a 109 .. or alternatively get used to aiming somewhere outboard of the left wingtip of the targethttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Your inline engine is very very vulnerable so sitting parked behind a bomber can be an unpleasant experience aside from which sitting shooting from the straight 6 at a bomber with your mg's doesn't usually do a lot.

Hence:

- make mg attacks from side on or above and below, gain altitude and come down at a 40-60 degree angle or dive down gain speed and come up almost vertically directly under the belly

- with mg aim for engines or pilot positions, forget shooting at gunners they all have lucky rabbits feet and lead a charmed life in this game.

- conserve cannon for really good shots close up in convergence, aim for wing roots and engines, use the mg's to get your aim then hit with the cannon


One big hint ... practice in QMB. Set up some likely targets and do some practice attacks starting out at 1/4 speed and working your way up to fullspeed. Important ... make tracks of the training and play it back later looking from the target perspective. Occasionally when shooting in training flip to the targets external view just to get a feel for where the shots are going. Even pause the QMB training session and pan around externally to see what is happening. This will help with deflection shooting and also give you a good idea why shooting at low profile targets like wings from dead behind is such a fruitless exercise.

Dgirth
08-19-2008, 10:49 AM
Thank you again guys for the information.

M_Gunz thank you for taking the time to explain to me about trim, I did do a search looking for info about trim but your post is very helpful and detailed, I am a newb and needed it spelt out to me and that post done it.

Well im of to practice my trimminghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

take care chaps!

jdigris001
08-20-2008, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Huh!?!?!? AI Zeroes are invincible?? Not even close. I shoot them down all the time. One time I was in a Beaufighter,

I dont seem to have any problems with most AI zero's, even when their skill is set to ace, occasionally they might nail me but 99 times out of 100 they are the ones going down in flames. Zoom and Boom works very very well with AI zeros, they just want to enter a turning fight, just dont play their game or you will be looking at silk. Also in the first head on pass you can usually nail the flight leader from minimum 500 yards, sometime 800 yards as they often flight straight and level at you, and once the flight leader is gone the others are usually the lower skilled.

Ive also nailed zeros in the beau, most times head on but sometimes in a chase when they are busy

M_Gunz
08-20-2008, 03:39 AM
Dgirth;

When you really want to take the time to learn it all, right and etc or start into real ground
school then try www.av8n.com, (http://www.av8n.com,) John Denker's "See How it Flies" site for real pilots.

Everything is explained without a load of math. The explanations are solid, with examples and
not simplified into being wrong nor having what you don't need for real understanding added.

He covers as well as how it works (so a pilot will know what he should be doing with the plane)
a lot on technique to avoid problems up to the ones that get people killed and to manage energy
for better flight. It's all in plain english with illustrations even.

Link to the starting point. (http://www.av8n.com/how/)

WTE_Galway
08-20-2008, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by jdigris001:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
Huh!?!?!? AI Zeroes are invincible?? Not even close. I shoot them down all the time. One time I was in a Beaufighter,

I dont seem to have any problems with most AI zero's, even when their skill is set to ace, occasionally they might nail me but 99 times out of 100 they are the ones going down in flames. Zoom and Boom works very very well with AI zeros, they just want to enter a turning fight, just dont play their game or you will be looking at silk. Also in the first head on pass you can usually nail the flight leader from minimum 500 yards, sometime 800 yards as they often flight straight and level at you, and once the flight leader is gone the others are usually the lower skilled.

Ive also nailed zeros in the beau, most times head on but sometimes in a chase when they are busy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yeah, I am not particularly great as a pilot but i seem to recall playing the DGEN RAAF campaign through a few times and even I managed to bag a lot of zeroes in the beau, the 38 hurricane the P40 and the P39. If anything the ki gave me more trouble ... and that d@mn 20mm tail turret in the Betty.

One of these days I might doctor the DGEN and play that campaign again in the p38.

Dgirth
08-21-2008, 10:57 AM
Hello again.

I took a look at John Denker's site tho only a brief one, added to fav so i can read it when i have time to digest it better. Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mind if i ask a other question ?

I been practicing everything i have learned here and my single player flying has become loads better but i seem to have a wee problem with aiming.

I have my convergence set to 160 but i seem to be missing way more then i hit, even when im so close on their six my sights are completly filled. I do try and stay trimmed when ever possible.

So what is the norm for convergence when dog fighting ?.

Also I use Saitek x52 and peddles, been thinking on getting Track IR, does it really help and does it work with Vista 64 ?

M_Gunz
08-21-2008, 11:32 AM
You shoot rifle for real by any chance? It would make this easier.

The gunsight forces vision to a straight line while the guns below fire in shallow arcs.
The bullets usually cross the sight line going up and then again on the way down.
When you set converge, the guns are angled so that the vertical crossing point is also where
the horizontal from guns out on the wings aiming slightly in also cross.
If you are firing inside or beyond convergence then you also have to correct for rise or drop.

If your plane is in slip then that will also throw your aim off, we covered that in words.

Big suggestion is you set up gunnery mission, big planes with no ammo circling the map that
you go shoot just to get a feel for where the shots are going and make tracks of. Watch the
tracks using pause to get the view and instruments of your plane when the trigger is pulled
then POV over to the target and swing the view so you can see your plane firing and where
the shots actually go in slow motion. If you set arcade=1 under [game] in your conf.ini
(use NotePad) for the playback then you will see arrows sprout on the target to show your
hits. If you practice with arcade=1 set then you will see white dots mark your hits while
you play as positive indication. Notice how long it takes shots to cross to the target in
delay terms, he is moving and you want the burst to meet up with him. It becomes more
important to get that down when you start shooting with deflection and not having to saddle
up and stay locked behind your target.

Dgirth
08-21-2008, 12:18 PM
Again i must thank you for the detailed reply, you really do hit the nail on the head. Great advice mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif