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View Full Version : AI poll and urgent matter discussion. (GRAW2 full game)



topeira
07-12-2007, 05:06 AM
Hello.
i hope this is what colinCJ wanted to be posted.

this thread is about the most urgent issues that needs to be fixed\added\removed in GRAW2 (retail)so maybe it can be brought to GRIN's attention.
Be a part of the AI poll and suggest things than are big deal breakers for u in your gaming experience so we can monitor them.

topeira
07-12-2007, 05:06 AM
Hello.
i hope this is what colinCJ wanted to be posted.

this thread is about the most urgent issues that needs to be fixed\added\removed in GRAW2 (retail)so maybe it can be brought to GRIN's attention.
Be a part of the AI poll and suggest things than are big deal breakers for u in your gaming experience so we can monitor them.

topeira
07-12-2007, 05:16 AM
i will start -

many games get good sales thanks to gimmicks (time manipulation, great graphics, weird weapons, cover system *wink wink* and so ) and some games get praised for being innovative and have great gameplay (farcry, assassin's creed and bioshock seems to go the right way etc).

graw is supposed to be the letter. it doesnt show great gimmicks, bells and whistles. it's supposed to be tactical and fun thanks to it's AI and messing this up is a game breaker.


* the thing that bothers me the most is the unchallenging enemy AI and oblivious friendly AI.
i had no complaints in GRAW1. i do have complaints now. going through the SP is a breeze and i am almost done with the SP after less than 10 hours of gameplay. AI is dumb and doesnt challenge me.

* because of the above i feel that more enemy AIs needs to be placed on the maps. they are vast the only around 50% of them are used for actual combat. in a game where the player set the pace, pace concerens should be left outside.
look at the user made maps - the users love action. all user made maps have a lot of tangos in them cuz shooting is what a shooter game is all about.

* linear objective order. i dont think this can be changed and it is well deliberated but still - for a game that is supposed to be non-linear it is pretty darn linear.

* i am not bothered by the other minor issues when big issues like this stand in front of me but i will state just one little minor isue -
why can't i compare weapon's affectiveness? why cant i tell how my attachments affect a weapon's behaviour or at least know which weapon is stronger and such? why would i prefer one 5.56 weapon over another 5.56 weapon? was better in GRAW1.

ColinCJ
07-12-2007, 05:35 AM
I have voted on what I have seen in mission 1 through to 5 they need a fair bit of work to be honest.

I am using Graw 1 as my example.
Will get back when I finished the other missions.
Cheers
T

topeira
07-12-2007, 08:26 AM
u know something, colinCJ, i played a lil co-op on my own earlier and it seems like the AI there is a lot more to my liking.

there are more of them and they are more reactive.

it's a pitty that co-op (OGR) cant be played with AI teammates like so-op missions.
the OGR mode is what i thought the camaign would be like - no restrictions. more opened. losta enemies and tough one, at that.

if u feel like testing the OGR and telling me if u think the AI is better there than i would love to know what u think.

it's like GRIN doesnt appreciate the player and changed the code for the AI in the campaign to be less deadly.

ColinCJ
07-12-2007, 09:24 AM
Ok missions 3-4-5-6.

The AI are better now but still not Graw 1 AI.
It seems that we have different levels in the game mods.

I have done the missions on Easy and Hard there is a difference, but it has been said the AI in this game are not as Graw 1.

A lot easier to kill and there reaction to our fire and movement is lacking very much.

I will add This is not a game breaker by no means the MP side is amazing its just great.

With a patch Im sure the AI in the SP game can become better.

I tried to lone wolf on ogr coop maps look awsome but the AI OMG they are from GR1 and then some, you need a lot guys to complete these missions.

These are the missions that will be modable later which is what many people have been waiting for.

I have heard that the missions around 7 8 9 10 get harder, this is from community players, but I will make my own mind up later and put in a smal update.

In closing the AI in this game to me as a player who plays this type of game and has a few hours under the belt are weak in comparrison with GR1.

To some one new comeing to the game I thnik it will be just right.

Just a little comment this type of thread is invaluable to the dev team and Ubi.
Good Thread topeira http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
I hope many more will contribute Snipe etc.
GRI meaning Graw 1 sorry.

spm1138
07-12-2007, 09:44 AM
Meh.

Can you make them more challenging without making them shoot laserguns and without breaking recon mode?

Want2Snipe
07-12-2007, 10:19 AM
I hate to discuss this here since I am only playing the SP demo but it appears nothing changed on the full game.

Aside from the enemy AI being dumb down, which is not really what we wanted in the first place, what I find more disturbing is that, as soon as the AI notices you, they start shooting at you full auto (normally as it happens IRL) but, they are very effective shots and this is not at all real or very realistic... this is one of my gripes.

Let me explain... or at least try:

1.- You are walking standing up and the enemy AI is say 100 feets from you (normal for rural combat), if he starts to swing his weapon up towards you on full auto, there is a good chance that some of those bullets will hit you and make some damage if not kill you but (and this is very apparent)... his weapon is still pointing to the ground and should give you time to duck or hit the floor but yet, he manages to kill you or cause grave damage... this is what I find VERY UNREALISTIC!!!

2.- Same scenario but you are now in a CROUCH position... the same effect happens here than when you were standing up... NOT REALISTIC at all.

3.- Again, same scenario but this time around, you are even proned and the same things happens... even LESS REALISTIC than the 2 previous scenarios.

This is what really annoyed me in GRAW1 and now is even worse because the enemy is very dumb yet, extremely effective once they start shooting.

If our weapons (Ghost weapons) are supposed to be better than the enemies or, for argument purposes, at the very least the same as the opponents, how can it be that I can't kill them while in full auto as quick as they can (because of RECOIL) and even when I am zoomed in with my sights, I have to be very precise to kill them with one shot (try shooting at them with the Mp5 unzoomed and you need a few bursts to bring them down!)... this is what I want to see balanced out. REMEMBER: This is not happening point blank but 100 feet from you when not even with zoom you can shot or move the weapon that fast, let alone shooting from the hip.

Imagine this if you will:

Tons more of Tangos on Hardcore, equal damage when shooting, more paths to get your missions done and more randomly scripted spawn points for the enemy... this would be a Gamers paradise.

The other little nags, I can live with! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

topeira
07-12-2007, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Tons more of Tangos on Hardcore, equal damage when shooting, more paths to get your missions done and more randomly scripted spawn points for the enemy... this would be a Gamers paradise. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree.

in OGR the situation is even worse - im getting sniped from enemies with G36Ks and snipers are the most annoying inventions of gaming.
there is no skill in fighting against snipers (AI) - if u wanna kill them all u need to do is memorise their positions and that's it. they dont have any behaviour besides shooting at u. and if u dont know where they are u aer dead within 1 shot. they never miss. why doesnt snipers miss if i run sideways? this is also annoying.

Want2Snipe
07-12-2007, 11:20 AM
OK, this is like the 2nd or 3rd time I hear this OGR word being mentioned on this game and I don't know if you guys are talking aabout the Original Game or a map called OGR or what... explain please.

topeira
07-12-2007, 03:29 PM
OK snipe, from the top -
in GRAW1 (after patch 1.35) there was an online OGR mode. 1.35 brought 3 maps that were meant to be played online, basically.
u could set up a LAN server and play it by yourself but it's a lot harder that way.
in OGR mode u have a map with no limitations (like mission areas) and no objectives (almost none) and u had to reach the extraction point or kill all tangos.
these were very simplified missions.
in ghostrecon.net u can DL tons of missions (user made. only 20% of them are any good though).
http://www.ghostrecon.net/files2/index.php?act=category&id=44&sort

i love those missions cuz they are less predictable and less scripted than what grin puts out.
problem is playing it by yourself is not as fun cuz there are no AI teammates around. playing online isn't fun if u dont have some of your friends playing with you.
i dont have friends who like GRAW so im in a pickle :P
i just wish there were AI teammates in the OGR missions in GRAW2.

in GRAW2 u have 3 OGR missions (the are simply called co-op) which are more complex than the OGR missions in GRAW1. they have objectives like blowing up tanks or adats but there is no order to them like in the SP missions. that is more fun as u can decide for yourself which objective u wanna do next.
for soem reason the AI in those coop missions are tougher than the AI in the SP missions.
strange, huh?

it will be a weird thing if u never played that mode, snipe, but if u haven't i can recommand on a few good maps so u wont have to go through the bad ones... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Want2Snipe
07-12-2007, 05:04 PM
Crickey... I did not know that and I am going to go check that up right now in GRAW as some of us aren't as lucky as other and don't have the full GRAW 2 yet! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Thanks

gersson
07-12-2007, 10:45 PM
better than graw 1 but still dont love it... add another option in poll http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif !

topeira
07-13-2007, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
Crickey... I did not know that and I am going to go check that up right now in GRAW as some of us aren't as lucky as other and don't have the full GRAW 2 yet! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://rapidshare.com/files/42653393/custom_levels.zip.html

the rapidshare link above is to my favourite OGR maps, snipe.
some of them are not that good and some are amazing. i deleted most of the worst maps and kept the more quality ones. try those out.
hope u will enjoy them.

regarding the poll - i think that GRIN wanted to make that recon mode and the enemy AI, as it was in GRAW1, is too reactive to well implement that mode so they dumbed it down so sneaking around will be possible.

S4sk
07-13-2007, 10:54 AM
Voted .

Ok Played through the SP game twice now (Arrived Wednesday Morning at 08:30hrs)
Once on Hard once on Hardcore.

Not enough targets,

Enemy AI: ... Non responsive sums it up (especially in recon mode)an extreme example being, you can round a corner, shuffle up behind 2 tangos pop one in the head wirh a silenced sidearm, he falls at his teammates feet who just stands there and then take out the second ..

Team AI: Pathing issues are gamebreaking.
Especially where buildings are concerned.
e.g. Mission "Long Walk" after clearing the roadblock and that quest is updated and completed. If you then go in to clear/check the church, leaving your lone Teammate standing at the Altar covering the door, whilst you proceed to the roof to scout the few metres to the next checkpoint. If you then issue an order for the AI to move to a position outside of the church, he accepts the move order, but never finds his way to the door, and wanders off into a corner stating he's arrived at his destination.
You have to puppy walk him out via the crosscom http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I havn't played Graw I since about 6mnths after release, but I seem to remember the opposition felt a lot more organised, and overall the Intensity of gameplay has somewhat been lost from Graw I to 2 (maybe I should re-install and see)

Overall I like the game, it's enjoyable, but doesn't quite do what it says on the tin.

*Edit*
Playing style :- I Like to RP the tactical side and actually use the Team AI as a squad, rather than Lonewolf gunslinger Rambo stylee. But the Pathing etc makes it hard work combating the engine rather than the Tango's

topeira
07-13-2007, 11:50 AM
what i hate about the team AI the most is that if u give the a cover order and they are not already in line of sight they wont move to provide what u asked. in GRAW1 they did that.

when u give your teammates an ATTACK order they WILL move and engage the target. that's cool. why can't they do the same in COVER order?
i think this is something GRIN missed. i dont think it was supposed to be like this. it makes no sence.

snellevint
07-13-2007, 12:16 PM
First impressions on MP.
All sniping (like GRAW1),no 'action'.
Every one is hiding/sniping in the dark corners.I remember in GR that sniping didnt pay off(talking mp here,donno about coop).Cant have TVT when all are camping/sniping.Well yes you can but it will be a boring game.Nice graphics ,but....to many spots to hide/camp.I'm sure this is not Sniper elite pt2.
Good job Grinn, on making another kids game ( we have consoles for that). I really hope modders can make something about this game or its RIP GR.
Flame on ( but you Mp players know its the truth)

Zoot86
07-13-2007, 01:56 PM
I've only played the demo and I thought my teammates' AI was great. It couldn't have gotten downgraded in the full version

Want2Snipe
07-13-2007, 02:35 PM
I think that GRIN missunderstood our cries regarding the enemy on GRAW 1 and if they were to give us the GRAW 1 enemy AI but tone down the accuracy on which they can kill you w/o even pointing the weapon at you or killing you with a pistol from 100ft while full auto, we all would be happy.

GRIN, we don't want DUMB enemies, SUPERHUMAN + ESP enemy nor SUPERHUMAN + ACCURATE enemies... we want tons of enemy we can shoot at but make them equal to our ghosts or to our capabilities to shoot accurately.

What exactly do I mean? Recoil plays plays a tremendous part on how fast I can kill or miss a tango if on FULL AUTO, right? make it that hard for him to be able to shoot me down as well.

How easy would it realistically be for me to shoot down an enemy with a pistol or even an assault weapon on FULL AUTO from a distance while he is standing up? crouch? prone? make it as hard for them to do the same thing to me if the situation was reverse.

I know you can do this and I know that you will make people a lot happier!!!

Oh and, while you're at it, give me and my teammates a little more caffeine so I can walk just a tad faster! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

topeira
07-13-2007, 03:15 PM
changing the accuracy of the AI is basically as easy as to edit a few values in the XML files.

MIRR did a mod that makes the AI have different prioraties about how they take cover, supress, prone etc (for GRAW1). i bet it will be possible to do in GRAW2.

once some modding tools will arrive maybe i will see if I can make something like that, though i am no modder.

p.s. - snipe - did u try out the OGR and the maps i linked u to? (i VERY highly recommand the "Boulevards OGR" map. it's brilliant. also the german maps are also wonderful, but linear).

Want2Snipe
07-13-2007, 06:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by topeira:
p.s. - snipe - did u try out the OGR and the maps i linked u to? (i VERY highly recommand the "Boulevards OGR" map. it's brilliant. also the german maps are also wonderful, but linear). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes & No, I d/l it at the office and forgot to bring it home but I'll do so soon and test it for sure... thanks for taking the time to do so bud.

topeira
07-14-2007, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by topeira:
p.s. - snipe - did u try out the OGR and the maps i linked u to? (i VERY highly recommand the "Boulevards OGR" map. it's brilliant. also the german maps are also wonderful, but linear). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes & No, I d/l it at the office and forgot to bring it home but I'll do so soon and test it for sure... thanks for taking the time to do so bud. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no problem, snipe. let me know what u think of this mode. even alone im having a blast playing it. just a shame it wasnt designed for only 1 player. but still...

GrimlockCW
07-14-2007, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
GRIN, we don't want DUMB enemies, SUPERHUMAN + ESP enemy nor SUPERHUMAN + ACCURATE enemies... we want tons of enemy we can shoot at but make them equal to our ghosts or to our capabilities to shoot accurately. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what i'm noticing is the AI is dumber when your not in a direct line of sight, and you could almost walk right up on them, as where if withing their viewing arc, its just like GRAW 1, superhuman eyesight and aiming.
even behind a fence at a long range they can "spot" the player at times :/

its dumbed down is def the right suggestion, not "fixed" as we hoped.

they also never fixed the HDR in this game.
you can't see jack into shadows (its all black) unless you step into it (then the lighted area's become brighter even if you look in the direction directly)

this game engines HDR lighting is seriously some of the worst i've ever seen because of this.
This hinders gameplay by making it near impossible to see a someone hidden in a dark corner (MP), or an enemy AI thats standing right next to you in a small shack or under a ridge somewhere.

i actually find the HDR problem more of an issue than the AI in GRAW 2.
the AI is "bearable" i suppose, though my team mates still couldn't hid the broad side of a barn for sh** if the thing were to fall right on top of them.

Want2Snipe
07-14-2007, 04:00 PM
I think we have beat a few horses with the AI problem but this is to funny not to post.

I was moving very slow (well, there is no other way really! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) with my team when, all of a sudden, I hit the Tac map and notice a Tango running towards us, I stop, reverse my footing to get some cover and one of my teammates is now in front of me so I decided to see exactly how they are going to engage the enemy.

The Tango get to the side of the house, there is a barrel there as well so he has to side step and sees my teammate and inmediately does a u turn and takes cover behind the house and the barrel... at the same time, my teammate is screaming that he has found a tango but takes about 1 or 2 secs to start unloading on him 2 full clips before he stops (the other 2 teammates are hidden or covering somewhere as they don't do anything)... Great right?

Nope, what I haven't told you yet is that the bullets from my teammate where hitting a Pole about 3 or 4 feet left to the corner and/or barrel where the tango was last seeing... WTF???

I didn't care what happened after that, I just laughed my butt off about this incident.

Another time, I was suppresing a Tango, although, I was only using single shots, just to see what he would do about me being there (I don't what else to do to amuse myself with the Demo! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif), well, all of a sudden, the tango gets out of cover and start to run in my line of sight instead of retrieving, waiting for help, whatever else you would do instead of running towards your death!

I could write a book but my vocabulary is really bad, I am thinking that I'm going to make clips of this but something is amiss with my Fraps.

S4sk
07-14-2007, 04:10 PM
Hehe

Just gotta love them. Just replayed Mission 9 whilst munching on a sandwich, One Tango left to kill before the quest save point, I spotted the Tango on the Tac map, Sent Beasley in to mop up, pathed him via the tac map in recon mode. He rounded a Truck, and stopped where orderd, reported the tango and hust stood there. Via the croscom, i take a peek, the Tango and beasley were almost touching muzzles, staring at each other, neither firing.

The AI is seriously screwed in relation to the model animations, they often state they are covering an area, but their model's are looking in the opposite direction.

I can only presume the Tango's AI was looking the other way, whilst his model was staring down Beasleys muzzle. I switched Beasley to Assault, he took down the Tango at point blank range with an entire clip, and reported his sucess.... bless

GrimlockCW
07-14-2007, 04:16 PM
quick o/t but its bugging me...
what gun in this game uses "clips"?
i'd swear we were using magazines... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

sry, the Gunnersmates pounded it into my skull...

JTF_AC_Sword_
07-15-2007, 09:44 AM
I can't stand them, as I shoot an enemy, without a suppressor, his friend just walks on by... oblivious to everything!
If I tell my 3 man squad to kill one man, 2 come out with 50% hp and another on red! plus when they run off without me telling them to only to be killed is annoying, so I just stick them behind a big piece of concrete cover for any difficult parts (where they SHOULD be useful)

CloudWOmega
07-15-2007, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GrimlockCW:
quick o/t but its bugging me...
what gun in this game uses "clips"?
i'd swear we were using magazines... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

sry, the Gunnersmates pounded it into my skull... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A magazine is the actual cartage you put in the gun.... a round is one bullet. and a clip is the amount of bullets in a single magazine.

Want2Snipe
07-15-2007, 12:42 PM
Gunnersmate usually stay in the ship so... what the hell do they know about weapons? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Just razzing you Grimlock... Just razzing you1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif