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View Full Version : We need box convergence for the 0.50s!!!



GH_Klingstroem
05-22-2006, 07:27 AM
Guys I have been trying out the 0.50s for a month or so now and in a thread thread the other day I learned (by Carguy) that all american planes have point convergence set as default which makes aiming alot more difficult!!

Before you think that Im whining only, try this!
Go into QMB and choose one of the early spits with 4 .303s and use ONLY them when you fire at your enemy. You will see hits allover your target! The reason is that british planes in the game use box convergence. The .303s dont do much damage but imagine now if they were 0.50s!

If you want to know what it would be like if they were 0.50s just go to difficulties and unclick realistic gunnery. The 4 0.303s now very much will resemble all the gun camera videos of 6-8 0.50s shredding a target!!
I seriously believe now that this really is the problem!!

ucanfly
05-22-2006, 08:35 AM
I seem to recall the days when you could almost not down a plane with 50 s was when Oleg used box convergence. He then changed it to point convergence due to community uproar (i guess) to increase effectiveness at convergence. Now you are talking about going back to that?

I agree the 50s have a problem, but I am pretty sure this is not the solution (since it was already tried).

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-22-2006, 08:42 AM
It's probably just the paper-and-balsa DM of the Imperial Japanese birds, but the 50's aren't an issue in the PTO. I'd welcome a nice middle-ground somewhere inbetween the ETO and PTO though.


TB

GH_Klingstroem
05-22-2006, 08:51 AM
How can you not hit with box convergence?! Its made for easy hitting, while point convergence was used by aces. Have you tried the spit's four .303s! You can see hits all over the place when you use them!
I dont think the .50s are weak at all since I discovered this...

LEBillfish
05-22-2006, 09:08 AM
So essentially you want a "shotgun" not a "rifle"?........Seriously, though multiple gunned planes sometimes were set for varied convergence the difference was not all that great. Lastly (and not sure on this) you used to be able to fire just inner or outer guns, and may still be that way. If so, simply set your cannon and MG convergence differently.

Lastly, what is your convergence set at? Also know that a slight amount of movement as you fly translates to huge differences quickly. (8' for a 1 degree angle shift at 150yards = 16' at 300 yards).....Look at a plane from the rear, the wing might show what? a 2' area to hit if in a slight climb? 6' if square to you?

So even 1 degree at close range can mean a miss.

If you want the scatter shot approach then your results will shift dramatically......In that you'll get hits each burst, but all over....Meaning, you use all your ammo and never get a kill...........Think about it.

StellarRat
05-22-2006, 01:02 PM
I don't want it. If you sneak behind someone your initial burst will be far less effective. Hopefully with BOB we will be able the set our firing pattern by adjusting the guns individually then you can have anything you want.

VW-IceFire
05-22-2006, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Guys I have been trying out the 0.50s for a month or so now and in a thread thread the other day I learned (by Carguy) that all american planes have point convergence set as default which makes aiming alot more difficult!!

Before you think that Im whining only, try this!
Go into QMB and choose one of the early spits with 4 .303s and use ONLY them when you fire at your enemy. You will see hits allover your target! The reason is that british planes in the game use box convergence. The .303s dont do much damage but imagine now if they were 0.50s!

If you want to know what it would be like if they were 0.50s just go to difficulties and unclick realistic gunnery. The 4 0.303s now very much will resemble all the gun camera videos of 6-8 0.50s shredding a target!!
I seriously believe now that this really is the problem!!
It used to be like this and it was changed to point convergence for greater point firepower. Some WWII aces changed their convergence to point instead of box for better hitting power so I think the current setup is better.

Ultimately having both as options would be great. In Storm of War perhaps. I wouldn't want it changed in this game.

Lordbutter4
05-22-2006, 02:19 PM
It would be nice to set convergence on each set of 50's. That way in a mustang or any other 6 gun setup we could have 3 different distance settings versus the 1 we have. In a 47 we could have 4 which would be nice as well.

Abbuzze
05-22-2006, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
How can you not hit with box convergence?! Its made for easy hitting, while point convergence was used by aces. Have you tried the spit's four .303s! You can see hits all over the place when you use them!
I dont think the .50s are weak at all since I discovered this...

Yes you are right http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif nevertheless after a lot of "talking" about this theme Oleg reduced the dispersion some patches Ago.

Bearcat99
05-22-2006, 03:45 PM
AFAIK the only plane that you can set multiple machinegun convergences on is the P-47.. I could be wrong... I find that if you set them to within 5-10m of each other you have more hitting power than a higher number... Any higher and it is like having tw sets of the pea shooter 50s on a B Mustang.

R_Target
05-22-2006, 04:01 PM
I don't know, I think I like point better. It packs a pretty mean punch when you get all that lead on target.

GH_Klingstroem
05-22-2006, 04:35 PM
I dunno. The four 0.303s of the spit should pretty much resemble what the p51B and the p51C would look like if they had box convergence!
With the 4 MGs on the spit I see bright flashes all over my target every time I pull the trigger! With the 4 .50s (with point convergence) I very seldom see these bright flashes because if the target is anywhere but exactly on the dot in the gunsight and exactly at the correct convergence distance most bullets will miss.
How many hits do they say that it takes to down a 109 on average? 20 maybe? Well if those four 0.303s on the spit were 0.50s I would easely down enemy AC with 20 hits and it would be very easy to get them as well.

I even tried arcade=1 and that just showed me that every time when I pulled the trigger with the spit I got ten times more arrows going through the enemt AC. The bullets simply spread better in the vertical plane!
I cant see how anyone could not notice if they try for them selves.
cheers

VW-IceFire
05-22-2006, 05:17 PM
Believe me...I've noticed it and said "thank goodness this isn't on the .50cals anymore as it really bugs me in the Spitfire". In both cases I want to place as many bullets in the same point as possible.

WTE_Galway
05-22-2006, 07:37 PM
Assuming you can actually shoot .. point convergence is better.

With .303 you are probaly better spraying it around hoping for a lucky hit.

However with .50 cal a short burst at deflection on a loaded wing will take it right off with point convergence.

Box will just just puncture a fuel tank if even that.

horseback
05-22-2006, 09:32 PM
Since very few of my kills with the .50 have been made at exactly convergence, the 'point' convergence is still working as a 'box' half the time anyway. With a convergence set at 200m, I'll get most of my hits on e/a as far away as 300m and as close as 40m.

Catching and hitting my target for a full second or more at convergence is always a treat, however rare that may be.

cheers

horseback

carguy_
05-24-2006, 05:01 AM
Actual 50cal setting gives ppl the same way of centering fire as in cannon equipped planes.

The idea with more guns hence more rounds hitting target was
1.bigger chance to score hits
2.bigger chance to disable internal structure.


50cal are now AP so the idea of hitting just one point with them is messed up.If those were HE shells then it would act like a cannon shell.Using AP rounds means that every fired round will get a chance to pierce through nominal armor and damage internal structure of the fragment of hit airframe.

Remember the shotgun effect of 50cal was default historical setting and Oleg said the actual setting is unrealistic.
Ofcourse you guys know better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Go back to AEP and see how 50cal acts.It was both weak and synced back then.So you ppl though it was useless because rounds kept hitting a certain frame of a wing instead of exact point you targeted meaning somehow those weak ounds would gain more effect from concentrating on a very limited frame.

Having a point conv. with 8guns firing thousands of AP rounds at one point is totally against the very idea of having more light guns than one or two heavy guns.

Show me where on guncams you see point convergence.On the famous FW190 explode video we see rounds hiting the whole wing segment scoring many scattered hits.One of those rounds ignites the ammo box and boom the wing goes.

You ppl say that you rather have smaller chance to hit with smaller chance of causing huge damage.More smaller AP ammo aint never gonna cause the same damage on a 30cm radius armor plate like two MG/HE 20mm shells.If we use 20mm AP instead of HE the effect is even more visible.


So when I hit a leading shot on a wing with two 20mm MG151/20 shells it`s bound to snap off even if this game has a crappy DM.The same with concentrated 50cal rounds will at best make a hole in the wing whereas the idea is to hit ammo,control cables,fuel - basicly anything that wing hides internally.

Now 50cal has about he same effect as UBB on the Russian birds.Very accurate with high ROF and accuracy but with little effectiveness.

Better yet,read some more on the translation of USAAF from heavy machineguns to cannons idea after the war.

The box convergence was the most used on 50cal equipped birds.It was also more effective because when the target did get hit,it was immediately out of the fight smoking,burning,uncontrollable with wounded pilot.It was far easier to make a lead because always a wider area was covered by fired projectiles thus giving also better view of tracer rounds.It was both practical and deadly.

The nominal problem with you ppl is that you fire at 230-400m whereas it should be 170-50m range.


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
So even 1 degree at close range can mean a miss.

If you want the scatter shot approach then your results will shift dramatically......In that you'll get hits each burst, but all over....Meaning, you use all your ammo and never get a kill...........Think about it.


Now this is a geniue gem. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

GH_Klingstroem
05-24-2006, 05:08 AM
Im with you carguy although I fire at 150-200m! Also the point convergence was added at a time when US planes didnt wobble as much as they do now! Now we seriously need box convergencee!

JG53Frankyboy
05-24-2006, 05:12 AM
witht the now desynched Brownings, boxed convergence would be propably more lethal again..............

DmdSeeker
05-24-2006, 05:25 AM
There's a lot of P47 ground straffing video's on google; and you can often see the pilot using rudder; as you see a spiral effect of dust splashes as he tries to zero in on the target.

The same splashes clearly show two tracks at range; diminishing to a point and becoming two tracks again as he pulls out.

Judging from the footage available; I'd say point convergence is historicaly correct for p.47's in the ETO.

By the same token; the RAF entered the BoF with "Dowding spread"; which in effect is "box convergence". However this was quickly corrected in the light of battle experience to point convergence. Bear in mind though that we're probably seeing the effects of Russian experience with Spit's and Hurri's; and they may have drawn different conclusions.

carguy_
05-24-2006, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by DmdSeeker:
By the same token; the RAF entered the BoF with "Dowding spread"; which in effect is "box convergence". However this was quickly corrected in the light of battle experience to point convergence.

Yes,in light of battle experience which had a priority of downing German bombers.Needless to say multiple machineguns proved to be ineffective in downing bombers through the whole war.The point conv effect was to make up for the lack of damage a single round was able to cause.In the light of that ,please view what armament does fieldmodded Hurricane have or even with what is IIc equipped.

Xiolablu3
05-24-2006, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
Guys I have been trying out the 0.50s for a month or so now and in a thread thread the other day I learned (by Carguy) that all american planes have point convergence set as default which makes aiming alot more difficult!!

Before you think that Im whining only, try this!
Go into QMB and choose one of the early spits with 4 .303s and use ONLY them when you fire at your enemy. You will see hits allover your target! The reason is that british planes in the game use box convergence. The .303s dont do much damage but imagine now if they were 0.50s!

If you want to know what it would be like if they were 0.50s just go to difficulties and unclick realistic gunnery. The 4 0.303s now very much will resemble all the gun camera videos of 6-8 0.50s shredding a target!!
I seriously believe now that this really is the problem!!
It used to be like this and it was changed to point convergence for greater point firepower. Some WWII aces changed their convergence to point instead of box for better hitting power so I think the current setup is better.

Ultimately having both as options would be great. In Storm of War perhaps. I wouldn't want it changed in this game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be great to have the option. Whether point convergeance is historical or not, I am not sure, but the 50's have concentrated hitting power now meaning its very easy to rip a wing off if you aim in the right place.

What carguy says about spread doesnt make much difference because your plane is not still when you fire, recoil and movement spreads the shots about even with point convergeance. Your shots dont all go in the same place, no ,matter how steady your aim is.

Point is MORE of a sniper weapon, but you still get quite a lot of spread.

For hitting power I think point is better, purely cos all your bullets hit in the same general area and enables you to shoot from further away. (Maybe not historical) With box convergeance you would have to get much closer.