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View Full Version : Tempest/Typhoon, comparison to others..



XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 10:12 AM
Sorry about another Tempest/Typhoon thread, but it is my favorite plane and this is a great comparison to other aircraft and an excellent read overall. It includes comparisons with 109, 190, Spitfire XIV, and P-51B. I was especially impressed with the comments about the Tempest's zoom climb, diving ability, stability, and turning ability. Looks like rate of roll and high altitude performance were it's only weak points. Enjoy.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/versus.htm

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg


Message Edited on 07/02/0309:17AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-02-2003, 10:12 AM
Sorry about another Tempest/Typhoon thread, but it is my favorite plane and this is a great comparison to other aircraft and an excellent read overall. It includes comparisons with 109, 190, Spitfire XIV, and P-51B. I was especially impressed with the comments about the Tempest's zoom climb, diving ability, stability, and turning ability. Looks like rate of roll and high altitude performance were it's only weak points. Enjoy.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/versus.htm

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg


Message Edited on 07/02/0309:17AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:08 PM
Nice report, I hadn't read that one before. It's interesting to note how close the performance of most of these aircraft is. You cab see why pilot skill & the tactical situation of an engagement are so important to the outcome of a fight. Too bad they didn't compare it to any Yaks.
http://www.ecodragon.com/ecoart/yak.jpg


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Actually some RAF evaluations of Soviet planes would be fascinating. Does anyone know if they ever performed any ?

I know they had a Mig 15, but what about WW2 planes ??



"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:41 PM
The Tempest used to be real menace for latr war 190s and 109s in AH. It could do almost everything better up to 20k.

However, it had significant performance hole at 10,000 ft, where the supercharger switched gear or something like that. At that alt it could be left in the dust by Doras and late Gustavs without a problem. But go a little lower or little higher and the advantage as gone.

BTW, I've read a report of Clostermann going after a single Dora, together with his wingmen. The Dora pilot waited, then pulled up and dropped back on them, shooting down both Clostermann and his wingman. Anyone got the URL ?

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:42 PM
As good as the Tempest is, don't expect it to ever be 50mph faster than any contemporary FW190 as the report suggests.

Unless of course it's capable of 420mph at sea level and 484 mph at 18,000ft./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 08:42 PM
Ok so i know where there is a real one on rebuild its about 80% Done

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 09:02 PM
Wasn't it Hans Dortenmann that shot down Clostermann?


http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 09:21 PM
Could be, look at this link:

http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dortenmann.html

He shot two Tempests on April 12th, 1945, within two minutes /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Then again, thios site gives credit to Rudolf Wurff:
http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Jagdflieger/France/Clostermann_Pierre/clostermann_pierre.htm


I remember it was late in the war, but forgot all the details. The story is on the net somewhere.

<center>http://easyweb.globalnet.hr/easyweb/users/ntomlino/uploads/sig.jpg



Message Edited on 07/03/0309:31PM by Hristos

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 02:08 AM
FW190fan wrote:
- As good as the Tempest is, don't expect it to ever
- be 50mph faster than any contemporary FW190 as the
- report suggests.
-
- Unless of course it's capable of 420mph at sea level
- and 484 mph at 18,000ft.

You have to look in the comparison that it is likely being compared to FW-190A-5 or A-8. It mentions that it may only be slightly faster than the planned DB-603 version of FW-190(as was planned for the Dora early on). This comparison was made before the Dora and A-9 were produced or info on them was available. Still I agree that 50mph is a bit much, 30mph would be more accurate.

Tempest @sea level: 392 approx.
FW-190 A-8 @sea level 355 approx.

Tempest @17,000 feet: 435 approx.
FW-190 A-8 @ 20,000 feet: 408 approx.

Still a significant advantage, but I certainly have a healthy respect for the FW-190 as well. I am just learning the beauty of this plane, the more I read, the more I like.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 02:14 AM
A Tempest would have stood no chance against a Spitfire F.22/F.24. And with a Seafire Mk 47 the Tempest would start looking second rate.

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 02:18 AM
Umm hotspace, we are talking about planes that were used in combat in the European theatre. A Tempest would have stood no chance against an F-16 either....

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

fluke39
07-04-2003, 02:18 AM
great stuff
tempest always been one of my (many) favourite planes - good to hear about how well it performs compared to other planes - especially ones that we can fly in fb- so we can get a bit of a feel for how it may be modelled when we finally get it

cheers kyrule


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/ffluke.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 02:20 AM
hotspace wrote:
- A Tempest would have stood no chance against a
- Spitfire F.22/F.24. And with a Seafire Mk 47 the
- Tempest would start looking second rate.
-
- Hot Space

And neither of them would have stood a chance against the worlds toughest and most agile figther, the one in which even rookies would prevail.... the all-famous Yak-3.. Had the Great Mother Russia invented the .50 this a/c, equipped with just one of these, would have killed the puny Tigers /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Convergence would have been the key..... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 03:07 AM
I think you might be wrong there. The Tempest and later Marks of Spitfire would of made mincemeat out of a Yak.

Hot Space

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 04:27 AM
@Hristos,

It looks to me like it was Rudolph Wurff that shot Clostermann down.

According to Donald Caldwell's work on JG26, Hans Dortenmann was in combat with Spitfires south of Hamburg, Germany on 21 April, 1945 - the day after recieving the Knight's Cross.

His group on this day shot down 3 Spitfires without loss, Dortenmann claiming 1. No combat with Tempests by Dortenmann on the 21st. apparantly.


Anyway, Tempest and Dora-9 fights should be epic/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 09:43 AM
FW-190fan wrote

"Anyway, Tempest and Dora-9 fights should be epic."

(Reader feels surge of adrenaline rush up his/her spine)



http://www.users.bigpond.com/markltuc/images/Brown__4_CS.jpg



VS.


http://user.tninet.se/~qbc513r/jn766.jpg




http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg


Message Edited on 07/04/03 08:45AM by kyrule2

Message Edited on 07/04/0308:47AM by kyrule2

fluke39
07-04-2003, 09:54 AM
whoa

that puny tempest wouldn't stand a chance against that great big FW.

( i supposed you managed to convey the 'epic' but only with the FW /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif )


<center><img src=http://mysite.freeserve.com/Angel_one_five/ffluke.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:49 AM
LOL, oops! When I put the URL here it was from a pic that was the same size as the Tempest's, but when I put it here it truly turned out to be "epic." /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:23 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
-
- You have to look in the comparison that it is likely
- being compared to FW-190A-5 or A-8.

The Tempest V. comparision tests were done against a FW 190A-4/U4 and a Me 109G-2. The former was a Jabo variant, and I believe as an A-4 it could use more than something like 1400HP, much less than later models (it was somewhat ligthter though).

The 109G-2 was captured in NAfrica in 1942, being already damaged and was in pretty bad shape by 1944, so much that it didnt lasted much longer and was replaced by a newly captured G-6 with gunpods. I believe the G-2 could neither use maximum boosts during the tests. Also, note the comment about the automatic leading edge slots in the turning tests. I believe the unfamiliarity of British pilots with their operation prevented them to turn at the best rate, under any circumstance, a 109 should always outturn a 190, but in this test they performed similiar.


http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/FB-desktopweb.jpg
'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

Vezérünk a Bátorság, K*sérµnk a Szerencse!
(Courage leads, Luck escorts us! - Historical motto of the 101st Puma Fighter Regiment)

Flight tests and other aviation performance data: http://www.pbase.com/isegrim

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 12:33 PM
- Tempest @sea level: 392 approx.
- FW-190 A-8 @sea level 355 approx.

that is without boost for a8

eric brown test 355mph (571km/h) at sealevel with 1700ps
but in fb has a8 boost 2050ps,
20,5% more power calculate speed 597km/h

ok it calculate,but never see test with boost for a8

a9 with 2300ps has 36% more power as a8 that was test from eric brown

and has effective propeller,sure they was faster as a8 with boost at sealevel

and dora with almost same power as a9 and better drag,because she has not radial engine,
is faster as a9

dora with a-lader was too fast at sealevel 640km/h


Message Edited on 07/04/0308:48PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 03:34 PM
stay over 500km/h and you will turn with a Bf109
withought any problems.

<center>http://mysite.freeserve.com/Endodontics/sigs/SigFS.jpg?0.6257472972436022 </center>

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 06:39 PM
I just posted this because it was an interesting read, I'm not taking it for fact or anything as I don't get into numbers. The ONLY thing I put any stock into is pilot accounts, and usually only post-war. Thanks for the responses and I can't wait to have these two birds square off against eachother. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Roger that fjufff79, the Tempest should always be kept moving at high speed where its performance really shined.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 08:59 PM
Kyrule,

You maybe interested in a memoir I am reading at the moment: "Tempest Pilot" by Squadron Leader C J Sheddan (ISBN 1-904010-39-S). Very funny and an excellent all round read, talks alot about the good and bad points of the Typhoon and Tempest as well as life as CO and NCO in the RNZAF.

Cheers,
Fud.


Message Edited on 07/04/0309:01PM by Kefuddle

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 09:43 PM
Salute

Once again Isegrim puts forward his version of reality, which bears no resemblance to fact.

The 190A4/U8 used in the tests was in excellent condition, had not crashed, in fact was landed by its Luftwaffe pilot at a British field after the pilot became confused and thought he was in France. There was no significant difference between it and a standard 190A4, with the exception of the outer wings guns being removed, which made the plane lighter. The engine was in excellent condition and was rated at 1.42 ata manifold pressure. That translates to 1770 horsepower, not the 1400 he claims. The A4 was the most maneuverable 190A ever built, and climbed better than any 190A but an A5. The bombracks and wing pylons for drop tanks and bomb were removed prior to testing, and the aircraft generally cleaned up.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/pe822.html


The 109G2 was also in exceptional condition. It had been captured in Sicily, still in its crates. It was a replacement aircraft and barely had any hours on its engine.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.co.uk/rn228.html

If people go back and look at the Tempest which these aircraft were tested against, they will see it was was an early prototype, equipped with a Sabre IIA engine, which only put out 2090 hp.

http://home.epix.net/~cap14//tempestafdu.html

This is instead of the 2420 hp which the Sabre IIB installed in the Production Tempest produced.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/engines.htm

The final models of the Tempest were equipped with the Sabre VI, which put out 2600 hp.

I'd be happy to fly a properly modelled Tempest V against ANY Luftwaffe aircraft.


RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:07 PM
Kefuddle, thanks for the heads up, I'll check it out.

RAF74Buzzsaw_XO, roger that. I would gladly ride into any hostile territory on the back of a Tempest.

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/graham4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-04-2003, 10:12 PM
And a hearty 'Here here' to that!

Look at my name and work out which aircraft I',m into....

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:22 AM
eric brown has a4 test without wep

a8 has he test with wep 1700ps initialclimb 17,5m/sec 571km/h sealevel speed
a4 was slower and has initialclimb 16m/sec

a8 with more weigh as a4 climb better and is faster as a4,

that means a4 was not with same power test

a4 was test without wep


Message Edited on 07/05/0312:47PM by Skalgrim

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 02:31 AM
Salute

Captain, (Royal Navy) Eric Brown flew test aircraft for the British Navy.

He was one of the last British pilots to fly the 190A4. The pilots from the AIR FIGHTING DEVELOPMENT UNIT, and ENEMY AIRCRAFT unit of the RAF flew the aircraft many more times than he did, and they flew it first.

Second, the 190A4 did not have WEP. It had different stages of boost, that's all.

Later models of the 190A had petrol injection (B3 fuel) directly in the air intake, which allowed for higher boost and more horsepower.

The 190A4 used in the tests was a perfect example of a 190A4, with normal power rating for this aircraft.

XyZspineZyX
07-05-2003, 04:05 AM
RAF74Buzzsaw_XO wrote:


- The A4 was the most maneuverable 190A ever
- built, and climbed better than any 190A but an A5.

This is incorrect.

Not only did the A-5 outclimb the A-4, in German tests basically each successive FW190 varient could outclimb the A-4, including A-8 variants optimised for dogfighting, i.e. no outer cannons and no bombrack.

The obvious exception to this would be the 4300kg+ "Sturm" FW190A-8 variants with heavier armor protection and outboard cannons.



Climb times to 6,000m(19,680ft):


FW190A-4 @3850kg - 7min.48sec.

FW190A-5 @3871kg - 7min.05sec.

FW190A-5 @4050kg - 7min.30sec.

FW190A-6 @4150kg - 7min.30sec.

FW190A-8 @4360kg - 8min.45sec.

FW190A-9 @4200kg - 7min.15sec.


Climb to 8,000m


FW190A-4 @3850kg - 12min.00sec.

FW190A-8 (weight u/k) - 10min.42sec.

FW190A-9 (weight u/k) - 10min.18sec.









http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

====================================
"I hit you so hard there would be tiny little ME-109's flying in circles around your head" - USAFHelos
====================================