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Ace_Hyflyer
10-03-2005, 01:06 PM
I've been trying to practice attacking bombers with slashing attacks from side/top without getting hit by their gunners. I'm coming along, but I have a few questions. I've been practicing against Ju-88s and He-111s. I find that the 111s are very easy to down, as a few cannon rounds in the fuselage results in a fuel tank explosion. The Ju-88 however, seems much tougher, and I generally bring it down with a PK. Is this fairly historical? Also, targeting a specific part of the bomber is easy in 6 or 12 o'clock passes, but how can you concentrate your fire in a high speed pass from high 3/9? I usually end up spreading my fire all along the fuselage and engines, and I have a feeling this is why the Ju-88s don't want to go down.

Thanks for any help,
Chris

StellarRat
10-03-2005, 01:12 PM
Try diving straight down on them and concentrating your fire on one engine/wing. If the first pass doesn't bring it down try again shooting at the SAME wing. This takes really good timing but it pretty effective.

Ace_Hyflyer
10-03-2005, 01:24 PM
True, the only thing I don't like about that style of attack, is it is very difficult to keep the bombers in view. You end up having to do aerobatics to see to align yourself properly to dive onto them.

I'll have to practice that one a bit.

Thanks,
Chris

StellarRat
10-03-2005, 01:31 PM
The trick is to fly past (get in front of them) then roll your plane over on it's back before you dive. This will help you keep them in sight during the dive. Also, high speed increase the damage your guns do and decreases the chance for their gunners to hit you.

VW-IceFire
10-03-2005, 01:47 PM
The trick about slashing attacks is that you may not even see your target when you fire. Its a good skill to practice and the bomber pilots are shocked and awed when someone doesn't ram them or fly dead 6 into their guns.

I haven't seen more than a few guys do slash attacks against me...

HART_dreyer
10-03-2005, 05:10 PM
Personally I enjoy making my attack runs from 12 High or 6 low. The reason for this is very simple; it's the most effective.

3/9 attacks are probably more deadly if you hit your target well and even harder to defend against, however it takes a whole lot of time to setup the attack correctly to minimize danger to your own aircraft. You'll also have a higher failure rate no matter how skilled you are than attacks from 12High-6Lo.

If you ensure you have enough speed 12High and 6Lo attacks are very effective. If you do it right you will not be within firing range for more than a split second (not enough time to take any fire from any human pilot). The minute you start your attack runs low on energy you€re a dead man, however.

Kuna15
10-03-2005, 05:34 PM
If there are Ju-87 in question or IL-2s you can sneak up from his low 6.

Basically I like some kind of yo yo attack against humans (if I know tha ai wont man the defensive guns), because it is hard for them to track (I shoot from below bomber). Against ai I prefer side attacks (scissoring around bomber), and slashing from above and below on high speed. Works excellent assuming that these aren't on low speed.

Grey_Mouser67
10-03-2005, 06:10 PM
My favorite attack is from 12 o'clock low...it is very hard to line up but something about the underside of an aircraft is very appealing and seems to take less damage...maybe I'm imagining things, but I get so many one pass kills on all aircraft when I get that shot and make it.

On diving attacks and slashing attacks, the greater the deflection the better for me...it is a harder shot to make but I find it easier to kill...especially when hitting wing roots.

If you can concentrate fire on one wing, this is probably the easiest way to kill a bomber imho...but it takes practice and is much more effective with cannons...I've take a TB3 down a time or two with wing shots...a guy told me to fire for the wing...I did and the wing separated from the aircraft...I was stunned, but not as much as the enemy pilot...been practicing that ever since...its the only way to go after those HK8's...Oleg has them titanium armored right now.

All about gunnery...and like someone else mentioned, you have to hit without actually seeing the aircraft and then avoid the collision with cockpit on...very tricky at first!

Chuck_Older
10-03-2005, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Ace_Hyflyer:
I've been trying to practice attacking bombers with slashing attacks from side/top without getting hit by their gunners. I'm coming along, but I have a few questions. I've been practicing against Ju-88s and He-111s. I find that the 111s are very easy to down, as a few cannon rounds in the fuselage results in a fuel tank explosion. The Ju-88 however, seems much tougher, and I generally bring it down with a PK. Is this fairly historical? Also, targeting a specific part of the bomber is easy in 6 or 12 o'clock passes, but how can you concentrate your fire in a high speed pass from high 3/9? I usually end up spreading my fire all along the fuselage and engines, and I have a feeling this is why the Ju-88s don't want to go down.

Thanks for any help,
Chris

Don't aim for the fuselage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Wing roots, cockpit, engines

Personally I feel that the high side attack is too dangerous in this sim, although I find with practice you can make repeated attacks of this sort-IF-you keep the gunners constantly swivelling their guns with quick manuevers back into position for another diveing attack

Ace_Hyflyer
10-03-2005, 07:53 PM
Thanks all,

@Chuck_Older. I understand that cockpit, wingroot, engines are vulnerable. And I was asking how to concentrate on these areas in a high speed/high deflection attack as only one shell or so will land there in a given attack.

@all Thanks for all your help, just tried a quick mission against He111s and Ju88s. Tried to come past, then dive along top. It helped incredibly. PK's, fuel leaks, total disintigration in one pass!!

Thanks all,
Chris

Badsight.
10-03-2005, 09:36 PM
Heinkels are famous in FB for taking what the MG Hurricanes can dish out

but their glass nose is their weakness as ive had demonstrated to me , PK rules when you aint got cannon .

Ace_Hyflyer
10-04-2005, 08:46 AM
Argh. I'm going to go crazy! I've been practicing for the last couple of days, probably 10 hours total. I've been practicing attacking 4 Ju-88 A-4's with the P-39 N1 and the LaGG 3 (the one with two 7.62s, two 12.5s and a 20mm). I'm using original IL-2 v1.2 (new computer, pacific fighters, et al. are on the way soon). I'm attacking from about 500-700 m altitude difference and attacking from the angles 12 to 3/9. The P-39 is easy, one hit from the cannon wastes a Ju-88. However, when flying the LaGG-3 I find it almost impossible to bring them down. I'm taking 10-12 passes on one aircraft and generally only bring them down with a lucky PK. I have only had structural failure once (lost tailplane assembly/rudder) and one engine fire. What am I doing wrong? I am trying to concentrate on attacking the vital areas but find that very difficut because of the speed and deflection. I generally land maybe one or two hits in a given place every pass, and spread the rest of the shells over the fuselage.

Could anyone possibly give me a track (IL-2 v1.2) or movie demonstrating attacking these bombers?

Thanks again,
Chris

Xiolablu3
10-04-2005, 10:42 AM
I think the best way to beat the gunners is just to come down as fast as possible, but not staight down.

Try and make it so that the gunner has to compensate in both directions with his deflection shots and not just vertically.

I always find when I have to compensate in a diagonal way with deflection shooting that its a lot harder than just X axis or Y axis.

This means putting yourself slightly to the side and not coming STRAIGHT down. Its much easier for the gunner to aim straight for the cockpit if you are coming straight down at him as he doesnt have to deflection shoot and will probably kill you.

It also depends on where the turrt is. If you can attack so that you are not heading straight for a turret you will be better off. Think what plane it is you are attacking and ecide b4 you come down.

Ace_Hyflyer
10-04-2005, 11:32 AM
Thanks mate,

I have definitely been trying that (well, really I can't seem to ever get "straight" down). I'm not really having to much trouble avoiding the gunners, just downing the planes.

Thanks,
Chris

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-04-2005, 12:17 PM
Getting concentrated fire on target enough to cause catastrophic damage to a bomber without the use of cannon is truly a learned skill and an art only a few have an adequate understanding of. The B-25 (in this sim) is probably the toughest opponent and here is the best method I've found:

First get plenty O' energy. when you think you have enough...get a bit more, because those bombers can go slightly nose down and almost run away from a slower Japanese kite causing you to only see their 6 resulting in the dreaded PK.

Once you have enough energy and have spotted a potential victim. Maneuver to get on his high 12 in a parallel course. At this point I'll slow-roll (more like an exagerated barrel-roll) and come down with a screaming engine at his 1 oclock. I hold fire until I almost can't miss maintaining my roll all the while. Squeeze off a nice burst and slide underneath trying to retain my speed to climb back up.

I'll continue this until I get his controls damaged, he's on fire, engines are dead or his pilot is kaput. If some mooch leaves him alone he'll die a slow painful death (jk http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Oftentimes I won't even have a bullethole in my plane, I've used a minimum of ammo and start my climb back to my perch to start looking again. One of the real tricks is the prodigious use of rudder...be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


TB

Ace_Hyflyer
10-04-2005, 12:50 PM
Thanks Thunderbolt,

So really, it just takes a pass or 10 to down a bomber unless you have big/lots of cannon.

Just for clarification, what kind of altitude difference do you generally attack from?

Thanks for all your help,
Chris

T_O_A_D
10-04-2005, 12:56 PM
I set up the scenario in the original game ver 1.2 Man I miss those sounds. Then I flew in the latest version we have. I LIKE THE 1.2 p-39 BETTER for flying. but I found the targets easier to kill in the latest version, seems like every thing is in a slower motion.

Triggaaar
10-04-2005, 01:15 PM
Interesting stuff, just what I'm trying to learn at the moment. I've been trying some Ju88s in an LA7, and finding it very difficult. A couple of times I've brought them down in 1 pass, but normally I miss altogether, and it takes many passes.

I'd be really interested to see a track of a schooled attack (not a lucky one, I have those, but the advised way to do it).

Thanks

HART_dreyer
10-05-2005, 11:41 AM
Ok, want tracks? I got tracks for yah! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/ntrk/Yak1B_vs_He111.ntrk

http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/ntrk/P40_vs_Stuka.ntrk

http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/ntrk/109G6_vs_B25.ntrk (standard armament)

http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/ntrk/109Emil_vs_TB3.ntrk

All tracks are QMB missions and each bomber is brought down in less than 5 minutes with an average of 3-4 passes.

Perhaps this will give you an idea of how to attack bombers properly.

Note: Tracks are not perfect; I just loaded up IL2 and did them on the first try. It can be done better, for sure.

JtD
10-05-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Ace_Hyflyer:

Could anyone possibly give me a track (IL-2 v1.2) or movie demonstrating attacking these bombers?

Thanks again,
Chris

Oh, wow, it's been ages since someone asked for tracks from 1.2. Well, I got some here.

It's from my early days and as I don't have Il-2 anymore I don't know how good they are.

I remember that fun2 is a nice track - so watch it, learn and tell me how you like it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rightklick and save (*.trk file):

training1 (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/Tracks/Yak-1B-1.trk)
training2 (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/Tracks/Yak-1B-2.trk)
fun1 (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/Tracks/mission060.trk)
fun2 (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/Tracks/Yak-9K-2.trk)
BI-1 (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/IL-2/Tracks/mission240.trk)

Ace_Hyflyer
10-05-2005, 01:07 PM
Thanks mates,

@HART_dreyer. Thanks for trying but I don't have FB or Pacific fighters yet. (New computer should arrive today or tomorrow, then just need to find FB Gold and PF)

@JtD Thanks a lot, I'll post again after I have watched those tracks. I think I'm finally getting it. I was practicing against Ju88s in a LaGG3. I couldn't get them down in the beginning, but near the end I started closing in much farther, and only firing at say .15-.1 km (before I was firing from .4-.25) and everything started working. Got two with PK's, one just went down with some damage, and the last I nailed with an engine fire.

Thanks for all the help,
Chris

HART_dreyer
10-05-2005, 01:16 PM
Doh! Have to get FB/PF =O

Here's another one:

http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/ntrk/Mig3_vs_4He111.ntrk

Mig3 vs 4 He111. None make it back home.

Ace_Hyflyer
10-05-2005, 01:31 PM
Thanks again mate,

Should have FB/PF in a week or so! I'll watch them then!

Thanks,
Chris

Ace_Hyflyer
10-05-2005, 04:16 PM
JtD,

Just watched those tracks! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Are those yours? If so, your gunnery is bloody amazing! How many 111s was that? Other than that, nice to see that I'm doing what I'm supposed to!

Thanks a lot,
Chris

JtD
10-05-2005, 10:23 PM
Sure these are mine. I once made a short 40 missions campaign and did some fun tracks to watch in between the missions. I wanted them to be somewhat special.

IIrc the Yak-9K's cannon holds 30 rounds, I hit with all of them but I think on two occasions the forward firing MG absorbed the entire round so it's only 28 kills. Still not bad for a one minute flight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (My gunnery partially comes from the refly option, I guess I must have tried this 20-50 times.)

Good to hear you are doing alright - now just keep practicing and you'll be fine.

Ace_Hyflyer
10-06-2005, 06:02 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Thanks mate,
Chris

Chuck_Older
10-06-2005, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Ace_Hyflyer:
Thanks all,

@Chuck_Older. I understand that cockpit, wingroot, engines are vulnerable. And I was asking how to concentrate on these areas in a high speed/high deflection attack as only one shell or so will land there in a given attack.



That's a little something I like to call "practice". It is indeed possible to get more than a shell or two on an engine in a 90* deflection shot