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View Full Version : Oleg, please fix the AI in 4.04 or give us 4.03/2 AI...



SeaFireLIV
02-28-2006, 04:34 PM
Others have been voicing concerns about AI planes in offline campaigns and I wasn`t sure, but now after flying in the Campaign, I must voice my findings.

I have been been flying DGEN 1942/ Stalingrad using the P39n.

In several missions now I have witnessed AI planes both friends and enemies flying in a reckless and frenzied manner in a very unrealistic way.

Examples:

My Squad of P39ns and I16s meet numerous 109s and 110s over Stalingrad. The fighting is VERY FAST, frenetic even. I see 2 110s collide chasing an AI P39, fair enough at first.

In the same mission, I`m chasing a lone 109G2. I`m always very careful not to push infront of an AI friendly if he`s chasing, instead preferring to go for another target. There are no friendlies after him; I nearly have a firing solution then suddenly I explode as a friend fighter dives straight into the top of me!

I`ve seen this mad diving a couple of times when I`ve been chasing another enemy since 4.04. The friendly will dive right in front to take away your bogey. The thing is he does it very fast and VERY close! You don`t even see him coming to warn him off. the last time I ever collided with a plane offline was in an old Patch over a YEAR ago!

I`ve had this mad crashing diving speed craziness 3 times now.

Even when not colliding I`m worried about where my friendlies are going as they weave and dodge frenetically all over

One other thing, I disabled the engine of a 109 and saw his propellers stop, but he immediately pointed up and went very high???? How could this be? i`m no aeronatical engineer, but how could the 109 climb this way without a spinning prop!!! What have you done to the AI in 4.04??

Is it when you took away the wobble effect? has this freed up the AI too much? The AI in 4.02/3 was nigh perfect, they flew like Humans. You were asked NOt to change the AI, there was no need.

Please fix this, or return AI to 4.02!

Waiting in anticipation.

Brain32
02-28-2006, 05:11 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
Tangling with 404 AI in qmb is bareable(even fun in mazohistic way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif), but I can't imagine playing a campaign with them...

Grey_Mouser67
02-28-2006, 05:16 PM
I am now flying 4.01 offline and 4.04 online...I am missing my Mossie, Tempest, Ju88 and Mc's...ah, and don't forget the awsome new and improved spit!

Just don't make us wait for months please!

3.JG51_BigBear
02-28-2006, 05:49 PM
My favorite AI move is when the 109s get straight and level on the deck and start bank left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right...

SeaFireLIV
03-01-2006, 02:18 AM
there is really something wrong with the AI. I think that the whining about `wobbles` was so quickly taken away that the figher AI was not thoroughly tested. The AI are acting like robots. Also, they are doing things that are not realistic (such as the zooming non-spinning prop climb, something I`ve never seen before). For me, this is the worse AI I`ve ever seen.

Oleg, I know you changed the new FMs because everyone kept complaining about wobbles (I never noticed the problem myself), but don`t turn the sim into an arcade game with the AI. Sure, you`ve pleased the mostly online-whining crowd, who won`t notice the AI cos they only fight eachother, but now the offliner has MAD AI.

I cannot fly offline anymore because of this for the first time ever.

BUMP.

bigbossmalone
03-01-2006, 03:00 AM
Something needs to be done, for sure, and soon!!
I've been working on a couple campaigns recently,(P-38's and Mossie), and the AI planes, primarily the friendlies, are absolutely insane! I have two flights of P-38's who start engaging a flight of 109's, the Lightnings split up into pairs and each pair start doing exactly the same manouevres while flying closer and closer togetheruntil eventually they collide with each other while chasing the same bogey. This happened to all 3 pairs from the 2 flights, leaving me and my wingman(who also seemed quite keen to be trying to ram his plane into mine!) As I was still in testing, I wasn't recording it, but I wish I had. This is one for the record books! Please undo whatever has been done to the AI, Oleg.
Getting planes to behave properly in FMB campaigns is becoming VERY TRICKY, indeed!!

lowfighter
03-01-2006, 03:23 AM
Right on spot Seafire, you found the best word,"frenzy AI", to describe what's happening
in 4.04. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Freakbrother
03-01-2006, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
...or return AI to 4.02!


Would be the best to bring back 4.02 fighter-AI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The stupid bomber-AI should be also fixed,
it's impossible to create missions with big bomberformations because the stupid behavior to follow the leader down to ground if he was demaged and slows down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

joeap
03-01-2006, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
there is really something wrong with the AI. I think that the whining about `wobbles` was so quickly taken away that the figher AI was not thoroughly tested. The AI are acting like robots. Also, they are doing things that are not realistic (such as the zooming non-spinning prop climb, something I`ve never seen before). For me, this is the worse AI I`ve ever seen.

Oleg, I know you changed the new FMs because everyone kept complaining about wobbles (I never noticed the problem myself), but don`t turn the sim into an arcade game with the AI. Sure, you`ve pleased the mostly online-whining crowd, who won`t notice the AI cos they only fight eachother, but now the offliner has MAD AI.

I cannot fly offline anymore because of this for the first time ever.

BUMP.

You know that remark of yours is unfair, I have not played enough to judge the AI, but if you stopped playing because of the AI, many had real problems with the wobbles...(I had none really myself) and also could not play. To dismiss them as "whiners" is not correct IMO.

LT.INSTG8R
03-01-2006, 04:45 AM
Heh Seafire and you thought my post had to do with Mossie Collisions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/8851045514

Im glad I wasnt imagining it

SeaFireLIV
03-01-2006, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by joeap:
You know that remark of yours is unfair, I have not played enough to judge the AI, but if you stopped playing because of the AI, many had real problems with the wobbles...(I had none really myself) and also could not play. To dismiss them as "whiners" is not correct IMO.

ok, ok. some apparently had a real problem with the `wobble` so they were right to complain, but I think this got taken up by everyone else and their Grandma that just didn`t like the new FMs, and in Oleg`s rush to please, the AI has losts it`s FM and its realistic flight characteristics RESTRICTIONS. I truly believe the rush was so sudden that the AI has been literally freed off its leash like a pride of Lions released onto an unsuspecting public!

It`s just frustrating to see the loudest online people being pleased while offliners suffer again.

And remember, I still fly ONLINE regularly, so I`m not just catering to offliners. Onliners won`t notice the AI problem since its Human fighting human mostly, but believe you me, NO online player flies like the AI does now!

It`s sad to see a great patch like 4.04 come out, but after much testing offline to see that the AI is truly buggered! This is a real serious issue for me, since offline AI WAS good, and I can`t fly the Campaign as it is, not with this manic AI.

HelSqnProtos
03-01-2006, 05:25 AM
S~!

I am strictly an online flyer except for testing.

AI is indeed porked. However this may have been the result of fixing other issues in the code http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
03-01-2006, 05:48 AM
online flying doesnt only mean "Airquake" on Dogfightservers !
in COOP missions the AI behaviour is also VERY important!

more than once i was annoyed about the bomber AI (just as an example) in online Online war COOP missions. if you wanted to shoot down the bombers, a rule was attack the flight leaders as the last - otherwise the other bombers will follow thier leader down http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Brain32
03-01-2006, 05:56 AM
BTW, online only guys must feel one of the effects of crazy AI, it's AI gunners. They are insaner than ever. 2 days ago ju88's rear gunner took my elevator control from more than 400m during a 680km/h pass after I shot it up badly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, ground AAA is insane also...
Fighter AI offline is simply too much, and SeaFire is right in one more aspect regarding online players, they were always yapping about AI not being competitive enough, bla, bla, bla, and who got hammered because of that - offliners and those that like playing a campaign from time to time. AI is now insane, immersion in offline playing is gone...
Dev.team please give us back 402/403 AI it was the best AI we ever had...

R_Target
03-01-2006, 07:38 AM
That wild evasive roll that they do is pretty hardcore.

MrMojok
03-01-2006, 09:09 AM
Last night, playing an offline campaign I too saw a 190 with his engine out do the magical zoom climb. Also chasing others down low, absolutely insane rolling and scissoring by them right on the deck.

Chef-Scott
03-01-2006, 09:57 AM
I setup a simple QMB with two A-20 as my targets, and myself flying a 109. I quickly took out the first A-20. Came around for a pass at the remaining A-20, and holy cow!! The AI must have thought that the A-20 was a Pitts Special! The AI started barrel rolling, going verticle and doing things that I just would not expect a plane like an A-20 to do.
The AI is for sure on acid or something. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Skycat_2
03-01-2006, 10:19 AM
I haven't figured out how 4.04m can replace 4.03m's AI code unless it is through the files.SFS archive that is updated between patches. 4.04m has has two files, named fb_3do14.SFS and fb_3do14p.SFS, that are not in the 4.03m patch. I thought these are new files with 4.04m but maybe they are updates to previous archives ... I'll check.

Unfortunately its not like you can just rename or restore an AI archive that you like.

NerdConnected
03-01-2006, 12:27 PM
SeaFireLIV,

Very likely I'm not playing IL2 as much as you (me: only during weekends), but from the missions I've flown sofar, I'm not seeing any major differences in the AI. Yes, there are quirks but they were there before.

I doubt it if the AI has changed that much (maybe AI's FM?), but one way to know is to get some tracks of 2 or 3 short missions with AI against AI (all Aces) with 4.02/3 and 4.04 and compare the two. I'm curious about the results.

Mark

XyZspineZyX
03-01-2006, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Skycat_2:
I haven't figured out how 4.04m can replace 4.03m's AI code unless it is through the files.SFS archive that is updated between patches. 4.04m has has two files, named fb_3do14.SFS and fb_3do14p.SFS, that are not in the 4.03m patch. I thought these are new files with 4.04m but maybe they are updates to previous archives ... I'll check.

Unfortunately its not like you can just rename or restore an AI archive that you like.

I was under the impression that 4.03 was a plane addon with nothing else. 4.04 has definatly had a major negative effect on A/I performance. I have reinstalled back to 4.03 because of it.

Panzer_JG11
03-01-2006, 01:57 PM
1. For sure, the collisions are by far more common in this patch than before.

2. Crazy blackout-free G+ and G- manoeuvres(this is the case when the AI magically see you with his eyes in the back).

3. For me, one of the best: the magical climbs (the energy creation capability). I am not sure, but it's worst since the patch 4.02.

4. Since ever: The snipers/AI gunners...


We all want better/harder AI opposition, but with a "natural/more realistic" behaviour.

HayateAce
03-01-2006, 03:20 PM
Thank goodness oh wise Seefire is here to tell us that the new porked AI is directly linked to removing the stupid wobble.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

SeaFireLIV
03-01-2006, 03:35 PM
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, HayateAce. Best not give up the day job.

Kuna_
03-01-2006, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
One other thing, I disabled the engine of a 109 and saw his propellers stop, but he immediately pointed up and went very high????

I would "kill" for that track SeaFire. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Please?

J_Weaver
03-01-2006, 03:43 PM
These ai problems sound bad. Should I stick with 4.03 or go on to 4.04?

crazyivan1970
03-01-2006, 04:02 PM
Fascinated by these two threads i went off line in QMB mode to see what you guys are talking about. I dont know much about offline play nor i ever played a campaign off line...but i actually liked AI alot. It starting to remind me of how humans fly. Still not good enough, but hey, i`ll take it. One thing i find interesting tho... some of you guys are talking about unbelievable manuevers...but from what i have seen after almost 4 hours of QMB trying various planes... they still ways to go to what humans can do. Just a few toughts.

SeaFireLIV
03-01-2006, 04:46 PM
Keep at it crazy Ivan, you`ll soon see, if you see my early posts I thought the same as you at first. Why not try a P39n and I16 battle versus 109s and 110s (or vice versa)? For best results start a DGEN Campaign over Stalingrad. Fly about 3 to 4 Missions (preferably as Kapitan, but it shouldn`t matter).

See what you think after a tour of duty there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Sorry, Kuna, I don`t have that track, I really wish I`d saved the track of it. I was going to completely stay off FB until this was fixed, but might go back and fly more while recording so i can bring you all the multiple evidence.

Kuna_
03-01-2006, 05:20 PM
Hey SeaFire I'm battling at Stalingrad currently (in Yak-7B) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.
And getting owned by F4/G2 hordes all the time.They are bouncing me from above efficiently... and many times they have altitude advantage.

What are your major problems with this subcampaign? (I have rank of Polkovnik).
I personally find some Stalingrad missions very hard... so far the toughest fights I had. I almost can't do anything versus Ai if they are outnumbering me...
When I'm not outnumbered it's not really tough, because Ai glues to enemy tails fast and I give my best to help them.
Since you fly on VVS side have you noticed how the IAR's are good opponents now (on Kuban map, I flew against them in Yak-7)? They have surprised me big time.

My only defensive tactic against them is to hit the dirt, firewall it, and wait 'till the Bf-109 catch me then I evade let him overshoot and quickly roll on his six. (so far I have developed only this one)
I am happy if I send him a burst or two - man they are fast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
And yes, while doing so, I am repedeatly pressing TAB > 7 and TAB > 8 > 1... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Do you have some other tactic?
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f193/Kuna_/fb/careers.jpg
ps. don't bother about campaign tracks, I am playing that campaign as you can see. I only wanted to see that Bf-109 track.

Grey_Mouser67
03-01-2006, 06:19 PM
CrazyIvan...having tough AI is a good thing, but it is how we arrived here that is the problem...plus the behavior should be scalable.

These AI are not flying like real humans...unless you fly offline a lot, through the patches, it would be difficult to understand the perspective...at least imho.

AI are tough, but tough for the wrong reasons...I can go back to CFS2 and mess with FM's and create a 500 mph Zeke with Mk108's if I want a challenge...but I want realism...and guess what...I have more flying hours by a long shot than any pilot in WWII at this point...so I expect that if I fly smart and sound, I will live and if I don't fly smart I will die....I do not expect the enemy to gain energy through manuevers, negative G dive every time I am exactly 350meters behind them, outperform a Mustang at 25,000 ft ...i could go on and on.

What I do like is that they are aggressive and use altitude to their advantage...I don't like them pulling a 15G turn to pull up on my six after a 3000 ft. dive....

That is the problem...

Yes, for a short term fix, bring us back old AI in mini patch so I can enjoy offline play with the new aircraft....please, pretty please!

HelSqnProtos
03-02-2006, 01:00 AM
S~!

Tough AI is a good thing, but sustained negative G maneouvers for the AI and no G effect for them is wrong. Energy bleed is non existant.......ect ...

Not biatching, just pointing out what many others have observed. And not to highjack the thread, try attacking a flight of B17s the toughtest bomber of WWII and then try the exact same mission with the Ju88.

The B17 is a puff piece next to the Ju. Big surprise............http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

crazyivan1970
03-02-2006, 11:26 AM
Hey guys, i am not putting anyone down, just expressing my opinion. Since i rarely fly offline, basically only for testing purposes, i cant really judge, can i http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif One thing i`ll point out again, realistic or not, but still, didnt find anything that i havent seen online. Maybe problem is not AI itself, problem is what they can do with FM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif that given to them.

faustnik
03-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:

The B17 is a puff piece next to the Ju. Big surprise............http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Protos,

I tested this last night after I saw your post and I didn't get your result. What plane were you firing at the bombers with?

(Sorry for the tangent. Maybe you could PM the reply Protos?)

smatchimo
03-02-2006, 11:43 AM
Not to be a D***, but get some tracks w/ the proof of unrealistic behaviour and get them posted. Until then its just going to be a "he said-she said" situation. Im not saying your wrong, but to expect an FM change based on oppinion only is not very likely.
That being said, I have a lot of fun w/ the current FM and would like to know if my increase in violent death is due to my lack of flying skills or a strange FM. I dont know enough about how a/c "should" fly to identify any strange behaviour to this point. I just like the fact that my wingmen actually bounce the heavies instaed of create a suicide train directly behind them.

-Cheers!

HelSqnProtos
03-02-2006, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:

The B17 is a puff piece next to the Ju. Big surprise............http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Protos,

I tested this last night after I saw your post and I didn't get your result. What plane were you firing at the bombers with?

(Sorry for the tangent. Maybe you could PM the reply Protos?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure Faust. Happy to. In fact I will send you the exact mission if you like. My Squad likes to fly it for practise quite often. Feel free to join us if you wish. I will pm you the details.

sledgehammer2
03-03-2006, 03:53 PM
I'll add my opinion on the AI thing. Like SeaFire I am planning on trying to avoid flying until something maybe gets done about it. I am not saying that as a threat but just because since I only fly off-line I really am frustrated to the point of not enjoying this anymore.

My experience has been seeing the AI flying way too fast and pulling crazy maneuvers as the others have pointed out. I don't fly the Ki-84 much but I like the other IJN stuff, and I have just about given up on these planes because I can't seem to get high enough or fast enough to catch the bandits. Not to mention the damn engine overheating.

I love the support we get and I am grateful for the new stuff, but I really am to the point of max frustration.

Sledgehammer2

sledgehammer2
03-03-2006, 04:38 PM
I'll add here that I always use CEM. Not that it matters in this discussion but I try for max engine performance.

SeaFireLIV
03-03-2006, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by sledgehammer2:
I'll add my opinion on the AI thing. Like SeaFire I am planning on trying to avoid flying until something maybe gets done about it. I am not saying that as a threat but just because since I only fly off-line I really am frustrated to the point of not enjoying this anymore.


That`s the real sad thing. Offline is not enjoyable any more. Not if you want a realistic flight that looked and felt like something from WWII footage. I simply do not use 4.04 offline any more and may even consider more drastic measures. This is not a threat either, as I know that I am not important at all in this, just one guy. I will wait and see if Oleg AI returns to realism or 4.02 or 3. If not, well, there`s more to life than sucking up to a flight-sim program.

shinden1974
03-03-2006, 05:29 PM
I really wanted to give this a chance, really...I kept flying QMB's hoping that the problem is more me than anything else, but after getting annihilated in a K4 against P-39's...(please no tactics lectures, I know them.) that caught me in a climb, gained and lost speed at an unbelievable level, and extended away from in level flight with MW50 on...I've had enough.

It's not fun, I didn't spend my money to pull my hair out and beat the table...no need to whine, I'm just going to walk away until it's fixed.

gx-warspite
03-03-2006, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, HayateAce. Best not give up the day job.
Actually, puns are.

wcat
03-03-2006, 08:04 PM
Strangely, I find the AI a bit wild, but nothing that I heard in this topic (I fly 95% offline), But I also have the WOBBLES. The wobbles almost made me quit this sim, but I hung on, now some of you are saying they'll quit if the AI isn't patched, but you also thought that the wobblers whiners where a pain in the a**.
I'd say God is good, the wobblers have ok AI, and the non-wobblers have UFO AI's...GREAT!!!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

wcat
03-03-2006, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by HelSqnProtos:
S~!

Tough AI is a good thing, but sustained negative G maneouvers for the AI and no G effect for them is wrong. Energy bleed is non existant.......ect ...



Unfortunatly, no G effects on the AI (as well as x-ray eyes) have always been in this sim
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Grey_Mouser67
03-03-2006, 09:09 PM
Yes, but what really strikes me oddly is that a programmer would actually think real pilots would make negative G manuevers...they just didn't in real life, other than a nose over into a dive....negative G dives are just too harsh on the human body and plane to tolerate much at all...I would think that in real life, if a plane went into a negative G dive like the AI are doing, they would be impaired for the rest of the flight and seeing red!

Maybe that would be a feature Oleg could add...strong negative G manuevers actually "wounding" your pilot...causing him to see red and reducing control authority! I'd love to see that feature added!

SeaFireLIV
03-04-2006, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by gx-warspite:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, HayateAce. Best not give up the day job.
Actually, puns are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Don`t ya just love these sniper-shot posters. They hide under a stone, fire a shot and hide again. Cowardly-style. Add something useful to the post or go back to hiding under ya stone.

Oh, and you`re wrong btw. Consider yourself lucky i even waste my time responding to you.

heywooood
03-04-2006, 09:58 AM
Hopefully, threads like this one, initiated by a respectable forum contributer will be read and heeded by the developer...adjustments have been made to the sim and accredited this way before.

With so much still to come our way through both patches and paid addons - I think we will see the AI getting tweaked and adjusted.

Snipers and popup spammers are ignored fulltime, be sure.

MrMojok
03-04-2006, 11:04 AM
There have been enough complaints about this that I feel certain Oleg will release a patch to fix it. And probably soon.

Have faith, pilots.

sledgehammer2
03-04-2006, 11:14 AM
I had trouble with the wobbles too, especially in the P-51 and Corsair. I am glad that got fixed.

RegRag1977
03-04-2006, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by MrMojok:
There have been enough complaints about this that I feel certain Oleg will release a patch to fix it. And probably soon.

Have faith, pilots.

You're right man! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Alas for me, i can't be as wise as you are...
Wisdom and passion are too hard for me to conciliate... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

actionhank1786
03-04-2006, 02:07 PM
I don't know if this is something new or not, but i just noticed it today, and thought of it while reading this thread.
I had a QMB set up, 4 zero's against 8 TBFs, and with 4 Wildcats flying escort...as i near the enemy, i count 8 planes doing the typical Fighter flying...confused i switch to the enemy external, and see that the first flight of the 4 Avengers has dropped it's payload, and is chasing after me. I dive on the flight still in bomber formation, and to my suprise, i'm being shot...but not from below...from the flight of 3 TBFs on my "rear" now, so i try shaking them...but those things were staying with my every move, i went vertical, i pulled tight turns...nothing could get the "Pregnant Turkey" off my hiney. Same thing happened with a flight of B-25s, it was nice seeing them take evasive maneuvers...but when there's a bomber trying to get onto my tail...i'm a bit concerned...

Nimits
03-04-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by actionhank1786:
I don't know if this is something new or not, but i just noticed it today, and thought of it while reading this thread.
I had a QMB set up, 4 zero's against 8 TBFs, and with 4 Wildcats flying escort...as i near the enemy, i count 8 planes doing the typical Fighter flying...confused i switch to the enemy external, and see that the first flight of the 4 Avengers has dropped it's payload, and is chasing after me. I dive on the flight still in bomber formation, and to my suprise, i'm being shot...but not from below...from the flight of 3 TBFs on my "rear" now, so i try shaking them...but those things were staying with my every move, i went vertical, i pulled tight turns...nothing could get the "Pregnant Turkey" off my hiney. Same thing happened with a flight of B-25s, it was nice seeing them take evasive maneuvers...but when there's a bomber trying to get onto my tail...i'm a bit concerned...

AI bombers in QMB have been doing that since 4.01m at least, and probably before. Without a target to bomb, hey all fly like fighters . . .

Amagi
03-05-2006, 06:27 AM
The AI may have been altered- they seem to fly faster and not to turn as a response to distant firing, so that it becomes much more difficult to fight in a slower aircraft. They also attack from better angles to conserve energy, and are harder to hit. The evasive manoeuvring may well need some work, but I can't confirm that without encountering any that does. I wouldn't want to return to the pre-4.04m AI.

The AI collisions, if they are a problem, may have been caused by the faster speeds, but could be reduced by a rule allowing a maximum of two aircraft to attack the same enemy.

PF_Coastie
03-05-2006, 08:23 AM
I have been playing around with some of the new Dgen campaigns lately. One in particular is the RAF campaign. I am in Hurri and fighting against KI-43's.

The AI are MUCH more aggresive to the point of being idiotic. In each of 3 missions I have flown, I have flamed at least one KI and broke off to go for another. To my horror, I see tracers flying by my plane as the flaming/smoking KI is on my six! WTF?

Now perhaps it could be said that they are Kamikazi's. OK, BUT these are AI and they dont play by the same rules. These flaming planes were flying like they were untouched, Outclimbing, outrunning me. A human pilot would have been flying blind and his plane severly hindered, but not AI.

So for now, don't take your eyes off that flaming bogie!

SeaFireLIV
03-05-2006, 08:43 AM
Yep. the more you fly against AI offline, the more you start to notice that something is seriously wrong compared to how good it used to be (good does not necessarily mean harder, but realistic). 4.04 has destroyed the `realism` that existed in previous patches. It is literally like mad ` I don`t care if I die or kill my buddy!` flying beyond basic aircraft parameters AI now.Oleg, i implore you to fix this to at least 4.02 standards.

GregSM
03-05-2006, 11:16 AM
Hi All,


To me, the AI has improved considerably over the past several patches.

With the latest patch, particularly, it seems that evasion routines have changed so that it€s more difficult for the player to acquire and to maintain firing position. I think this occurs in two distinct respects:

Firstly, relatively fast aircraft are better able to exploit their speed. That is, it€s become rather an entertaining exercise in frustration to fly a carrier in, for instance, the I-16. One spends much of his time trying to cut the angle to overtake the 109€s or 190€s, while worrying that the target€s wingman could be positioning ominously behind. Still, from either perspective, the AI is not expert at executing this scenario, or no where near as proficient as experienced humans. But it€s better challenging now, and closer to what I imagine it must have been really like given such conditions.

Secondly, when fighting vertically in relatively superior aeroplanes like the 109, slower climbing, angles fighters like the I-16 are no longer so eager to facilitate their own demise by simply following as best they are able. It had been so that one wanted just a little patience in executing a sweeping spiral climb, from where one could drop down at leisure to shoot the slower planes to bits. Now, however, slower planes are better at responding to this disadvantage. They are now apt, at what appears to be appropriate times, to give up the chase and to wander off, as it were, to regroup. Especially when confronted by more than a pair of opponents, this new behaviour provides a greater challenge. Again, though, in this respect, the AI remains nowhere near as proficient as experienced humans.

I suspect that improvement in either of the above respects inspires much of the protest over the €œcheating€ AI. While I don€t claim that the protest is wrong (indeed, I agree that there are aspects by which the AI do €œcheat€), I do claim that its presentation is usually about as impressive as the legion €œarguments€ purporting to describe error in flight modelling.

Perhaps, it€s especially difficult to quantify argument regarding the behaviour or performance of the AI. But to offer substance, such as it is, to my general impressions:

I employ a routine that I believe helps to measure the AI. Namely, I set a quick mission comprising opposing sides of six aircraft each, piloted respectively by pairs of ace, veteran, and average AI. I then engage the autopilot and tally the carnage after ten trials. Previously, it had been obvious that proficiency in turn was the essential factor in the results. Firepower followed at some distance. For instance, the I-153P, with its quick turn and powerful cannon, would win handily and consistently against practically every other plane. But this is no longer true.

Having said all this, I think there are aspects of the AI that clearly want revision and are clearly faulty. For instance, when one is flying as a wingman, and when the flight leader has been either shot down or has entered the landing routine, the remaining flight forms on the player. This shouldn€t be: in the former instance the player has no means of controlling the flight via the flight leader€s communication menu; while the latter instance often induces the remaining flight members to crash into the ground as the player makes his landing approach.

I hope that this particular class of behaviour will be improved, while the improvement I perceive in the evasion routines is, at least, retained.


Cheers,


Greg

NerdConnected
03-05-2006, 01:06 PM
SeaFireLIV,

"One other thing, I disabled the engine of a 109 and saw his propellers stop, but he immediately pointed up and went very high???? How could this be? i`m no aeronatical engineer, but how could the 109 climb this way without a spinning prop!!! What have you done to the AI in 4.04??"

I've run about 30 - 40 quick missions with different planes and saw a strange climbing near-stall behavior.

Climbing bug: odd looking vertical climbing and near-stalling behavior when bombers are at 12 o'clock high. It happens when bombers are at medium to high (5, 7.5 or 10km altitude) and fighters pass underneath in the opposite direction and fighters want to climb. They nearly all go vertical and stall and tumble down. Looks like a AI/FM bug.

Sometimes (more rare) it also happens when fighter pass from 12 o clock high, roll and make inverted loop. While doing this they loose control and dive down at high speed and just recover near ground level. Wingmen which try to follow crash. Seen this happen to LA-7's against some high flying He-111's.

Another bug I saw in the quick mission editor is the 'missile' bug:

fighters with wfr g21 (Fw190-A9) or R4M do not attack enemy bombers and just cruise along to the next waypoint. It seems they act like bombers.

Mark

shinden1974
03-05-2006, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by GregSM:
Hi All,


To me, the AI has improved considerably over the past several patches.

With the latest patch, particularly, it seems that evasion routines have changed so that it€s more difficult for the player to acquire and to maintain firing position. I think this occurs in two distinct respects:

Firstly, relatively fast aircraft are better able to exploit their speed. That is, it€s become rather an entertaining exercise in frustration to fly a carrier in, for instance, the I-16. One spends much of his time trying to cut the angle to overtake the 109€s or 190€s, while worrying that the target€s wingman could be positioning ominously behind. Still, from either perspective, the AI is not expert at executing this scenario, or no where near as proficient as experienced humans. But it€s better challenging now, and closer to what I imagine it must have been really like given such conditions.

Secondly, when fighting vertically in relatively superior aeroplanes like the 109, slower climbing, angles fighters like the I-16 are no longer so eager to facilitate their own demise by simply following as best they are able. It had been so that one wanted just a little patience in executing a sweeping spiral climb, from where one could drop down at leisure to shoot the slower planes to bits. Now, however, slower planes are better at responding to this disadvantage. They are now apt, at what appears to be appropriate times, to give up the chase and to wander off, as it were, to regroup. Especially when confronted by more than a pair of opponents, this new behaviour provides a greater challenge. Again, though, in this respect, the AI remains nowhere near as proficient as experienced humans.

I suspect that improvement in either of the above respects inspires much of the protest over the €œcheating€ AI. While I don€t claim that the protest is wrong (indeed, I agree that there are aspects by which the AI do €œcheat€), I do claim that its presentation is usually about as impressive as the legion €œarguments€ purporting to describe error in flight modelling.

Perhaps, it€s especially difficult to quantify argument regarding the behaviour or performance of the AI. But to offer substance, such as it is, to my general impressions:

I employ a routine that I believe helps to measure the AI. Namely, I set a quick mission comprising opposing sides of six aircraft each, piloted respectively by pairs of ace, veteran, and average AI. I then engage the autopilot and tally the carnage after ten trials. Previously, it had been obvious that proficiency in turn was the essential factor in the results. Firepower followed at some distance. For instance, the I-153P, with its quick turn and powerful cannon, would win handily and consistently against practically every other plane. But this is no longer true.

Having said all this, I think there are aspects of the AI that clearly want revision and are clearly faulty. For instance, when one is flying as a wingman, and when the flight leader has been either shot down or has entered the landing routine, the remaining flight forms on the player. This shouldn€t be: in the former instance the player has no means of controlling the flight via the flight leader€s communication menu; while the latter instance often induces the remaining flight members to crash into the ground as the player makes his landing approach.

I hope that this particular class of behaviour will be improved, while the improvement I perceive in the evasion routines is, at least, retained.


Cheers,


Greg

Excellent post, but I think your focus is a little too wide...

1) Aircraft have been better exploiting their speed since 4.01, anyone flying IJN/IJA in the pacific offline already knows this. by 4.03 (where I'm at now) You're at an extreme disadvantage vs. USAAF aircraft. It was different before 4.01, but the focus I think is on between 4.02 and 4.04.

2) I don't know about the I-16, but I know that slower diving angles fighters such as the zero have different abilities as an AI and with autopilot on. Such as the ability to dive at speeds well past the point where it should be destroyed.

3) (I suspect that...) instead of trying to be subtle, Just say "the AI's harder, that's why your whining!" as an objective observer like you should be able to note...the 'legion' of arguments for an error in this sim is usually overwhelmed by the vast number deniers who never present anything more than 'you're an idiot' as proof. Maybe a post on a problem can be checked out by the developers of this sim and they can figure out whether someone is full of it or not...without a million STFU posts to dig through.

on your observations:

As soon as you hit Autopilot your aircraft develops many of the AI's advantages, most notably your indestructability in a dive. setup a flight in a P-38J at 10000m and dive full power. you shouldn't be able to pull out after about 700-800 km/h, hit 'A' and watch...How this can be a good measure of the AI, I'm not sure.

I do not actually have a problem with these cheats, without many of these cheats, the AI is dead meat.

The problem...and I think Kuna has figured it out...is the amount of energy the AI is retaining. With unlimited energy, negative G climbs and sustained turns are possible, continuous barrel rolls while still managing a high speed is possible, the manuevers are fine, but the AI can do them forever since 4.04.

I've gone back to 4.03, and it's great fun to fly against the AI, although still easy. In a 8 on 8 or 4 on 4 you can be killed if you miss someone especially with all difficulty on. It jinks, dives and attempts to cause overshoots on the defensive. I'm sticking with it.

SeaFireLIV
03-05-2006, 02:05 PM
One of the things I liked about 4.02/3 AI was when it succeeded in making me overshoot it. It didn`t fly faster than it should if in a slower aircraft. On no icons, realistic settings it`s a real challenge when faced with multiple threats.

Now I chase a 190 in an LA5, I`m right on him, he continuously barrel-rolls without losing speed, and keeps going and actually outdistances me and climbs away. At first, i thought i was just unlucky, even thinking this was a good thing, but after several missions and other strange things I know that that 190 should NOT have sped away after those manouevers - and he never even had a wingie to help him.

Kuna_
03-05-2006, 03:01 PM
What I would like for us to accomplish here is some useful, real improvements on Ai that will lead to better overall offline gaming. I presume this isn't too late to ask for some things to change (even some things that have never been changed...).

Most of 'bad' things I saw so far with this 404 Ai I already saw in some other FB incarnations...

All these patches had some good and weak points when Ai is considered.
I couldn't stand the "spirall of death" - small damage to the wing and Ai is crashing.
Or them evading my bursts from 600-700m and losing energy in the process. Those things I didn't liked in previous patches.

That has been fixed, but now I don't like pronounced extra energy they have.

------------------------------------------------

They always had this 'features':

-extra energy
-never jammed their flaps
-never break their structure on high speeds
-almost always see you first (90% of cases)
-see thru clouds (at least gunners)
-you can't sneak up on them; sometimes on very rare occasions I was able to sneak up on the formation on enemy fighters (I remember this exactly on New Guinea map me in Ki-43 vs. P-39s); notorious example is when they get into landing routine but that one is kinda exploit
-Ai gunners were always uber snipers
-Ai doesn't always obey your commands
-Ai always lose pure horizontal turnfight vs. player and they are generally bad on deck fighting
-Ai never give up the chase on lone player untill damaged/low fuel or 'till engaged with other fighters.
-When Ai crashes on runway (not disintegrates) no other Ai is able to land; they just circle (I presume untill fuel lasts I didn't wait to see). They are unable to avoid obstacles during taxiing/while landing.
-UFO moves; non-locking Bf-109 elevator on high speed being one example

------------------------------------------------

Some of these things are in the 'light cheat' category like UFO moves, but some other should really be looked upon - like pronounced extra energy. That one is currently giving the most troubles to offliners.

Those are observations I may remember at this time, but for sure aren't the only ones. You guys can think of other that I've overlooked.

Some of those can be fixed some probably can not. Just this shouldn't be concentrated on Ai (v4.04) bashing, but asking improvements/fixes to overall Ai.

arrow80
03-05-2006, 03:03 PM
Well the AI in global isn't that bad at all as it seems from this thread. Much also depends on mission design and opposition skill spread. I've just finished barbarossa campaign in Amagi's Disasters on Frontiers DGEN add-on (full real). Our flight succeded in shooting down 46 enemy aircraft in 8 missions with the loss of only 4 own (two of those were shot down by flak). SeaFireLIV, I recommend you to try the DoF add-on, instead of stock DGEN or maybe DCG.

ICDP
03-05-2006, 04:10 PM
The AI just plain sucks. Leave it guys it doesn't matter what we ask for. The fact the programmers can't even get the basics right !!cough see through clouds cough!! doesn't bode well for any significant improvements.

It cheats and always has done, the degree to which it cheats simply changes with every patch. If the AI use the same FM as the player it must be the one with all the difficulty setting at off. All we need to do is fire up one QMB to see the AI has a very simplified FM.

I think we should leave the 4.04 FM intact, I love being caught by AI Hurricanes that can outclimb my 109F2. Or engaging bombers that are more dangerous than any fighter due to the sniper AI. Or not being able to do a bomber campaign because your AI wingmen refuse to drop bombs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

GregSM
03-05-2006, 05:31 PM
Hi Shinden,


Firstly, I agree with much of your observation regarding the methods by which the AI may be said to €œcheat€, and I will reiterate that my commentary referred largely to the past several patches collectively.

Secondly:

€œ3) (I suspect that...) instead of trying to be subtle, Just say "the AI's harder, that's why your whining!" as an objective observer like you should be able to note...the 'legion' of arguments for an error in this sim is usually overwhelmed by the vast number deniers who never present anything more than 'you're an idiot' as proof. Maybe a post on a problem can be checked out by the developers of this sim and they can figure out whether someone is full of it or not...without a million STFU posts to dig through.€

If you would distil my post into a subtle plea to STFU, then I would wonder how you would summarise the passage quoted above.

I hadn€t intended to imply that everyone really whines because the AI is harder. I don€t imagine that approaching the matter after the fashion of mallets and meat is likely to further the discussion, and nor do I presume to preach my findings on the quality or extent of the refutation that tends to gather here in the wake of ill-constructed arguments.

I was simply remembering he who is obliged to carry the burden for proof.

Finally:

€œI do not actually have a problem with these cheats, without many of these cheats, the AI is dead meat.€

I share this feeling too, and imagine this is where the developers must be especially at pains to retain balance and broad appeal.


Cheers,


Greg

shinden1974
03-05-2006, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by GregSM:
Hi Shinden,


Firstly, I agree with much of your observation regarding the methods by which the AI may be said to €œcheat€, and I will reiterate that my commentary referred largely to the past several patches collectively.

Secondly:

€œ3) (I suspect that...) instead of trying to be subtle, Just say "the AI's harder, that's why your whining!" as an objective observer like you should be able to note...the 'legion' of arguments for an error in this sim is usually overwhelmed by the vast number deniers who never present anything more than 'you're an idiot' as proof. Maybe a post on a problem can be checked out by the developers of this sim and they can figure out whether someone is full of it or not...without a million STFU posts to dig through.€

If you would distil my post into a subtle plea to STFU, then I would wonder how you would summarise the passage quoted above.

I hadn€t intended to imply that everyone really whines because the AI is harder. I don€t imagine that approaching the matter after the fashion of mallets and meat is likely to further the discussion, and nor do I presume to preach my findings on the quality or extent of the refutation that tends to gather here in the wake of ill-constructed arguments.

I was simply remembering he who is obliged to carry the burden for proof.

Finally:

€œI do not actually have a problem with these cheats, without many of these cheats, the AI is dead meat.€

I share this feeling too, and imagine this is where the developers must be especially at pains to retain balance and broad appeal.


Cheers,


Greg

no, my apologies! In fact I was reacting to what I had read in other posts here, Your post is obviously not STFU nor mine, just that others have descended to that level for no other reason than to kill time.

Of course the burden of proof is with the complainer, but this proof is toward the developer, and these things are often sent by email to the developers, or seen here to check out. The back and forth between forum members on whether something is a bug or not is worthless after a certain point, Oleg decides ultimately what's going to change or not, regardless of who posts the best track or shouts whoever down. Numerous things are fixed without one post here.

I would imagine that oleg (or someone else) reads the first few posts and than tries it out or has someone do so, I doubt he wastes too much time on the 7-8 later pages of 'got track?', and 'where's your proof?' (which usually has scattered 'planes porked!', you suck, oleg!', and other assorted time wasters).

SeaFireLIV
03-05-2006, 06:59 PM
damn it! the problem here is that some of you guys don`t read, or don`t wish to see what i`m saying, while others somewhat confuse the issue by mixing other personal gripes to jump on the AI-bashing bandwagon. I have NEVER been a fan of the AI bashing, always promoting it - those of you who know me from ways back know this. Programming good AI is HARD WORK, I understand this. Let me make this clear:

1. I KNOW AI cheats - it HAS TO. But the way it cheated in 4.02/3 was BELIEVABLE.

2. There have been faults with the AI not doing some things to other people`s satisfaction (including myself) such as seeing thru clouds, but this was understood and accepted - I don`t expect this.

3. Neither am I complaining bacause AI is harder. This was not my main point. I was still shooting down aircraft, still surviving. Difficulty isn`t it. It`s watching AI do moves that do not approach reality, it`s experiencing collisions before not seen, it`s feeling like I am playing Star Wars, The Empire strikes Back, not flying in the grim world of the Eastern Front of WWII.



The point is, everyone, that AI has gone BACKWARDS. I am NOT asking for AI to see thru clouds, I am NOT asking for EASIER AI. I am NOT even asking for AI gunners to be easier. I only ask for AI to be restored to 4.03/2 then we will have a semblance of something where we can have a suspension of disbelief.

Read guys, and understand. I have repeated myself enough for 2 years-olds to get the message.

Codex1971
03-05-2006, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
The point is, everyone, that AI has gone BACKWARDS. I am NOT asking for AI to see thru clouds, I am NOT asking for EASIER AI. I am NOT even asking for AI gunners to be easier. I only ask for AI to be restored to 4.03/2 then we will have a semblance of something where we can have a suspension of disbelief.

I agree...I am currently going through a "what if" offline campaign using Do-335s in Berlin 45'. I am amazed that an La-7 can follow me in a 60 degree dive reaching 800km/h and not have his wings rip off... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I am impressed with the way the AI seems jink more when I'm on thier six, I've noticed a lot of heavy rudder use which makes it hard to line up for a shot...very cool http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CombatAce_MK2
03-05-2006, 09:48 PM
I have been playing alot of offline in PF after the latest patch and have only seen one friendly collision as was described. Also when you get on the AI's six, it is great how they avoid. I do not belive it is that noticeable in PF. it seems fine.

GregSM
03-05-2006, 11:38 PM
Hi Shinden,


It€s my mistake to have misread that part of your post.


Cheers,


Greg

HotelBushranger
03-06-2006, 02:58 AM
In a mission I made last night, in my 109 G-2 from take off, was able to climb to 4000m and take out 3 LA-5's and damage several Pe-2's, breaking cos all guns where dry. Little to no damage. 1 La, flight leader was Veteran, others were Average. I have no troubles with them so far, nor ever had troubles with wobbles.

Kuna_
03-06-2006, 05:29 AM
What I can not agree on here is unconditional asking for 402/403 Ai, see my reasons below.

There is one big overlooked thing called "wobble" in 402/403, that affected people's experiences big time so they actually had believable Ai but unbelievable FM of their own aircrafts.

This people have horror whenever someone mentiones 402, like IceFire and some others that had really big wobble problems.
Question is how possible is to have 402/403 Ai without changing player FM, without going back to "wobble FM for player" area?

I feel this is needed to be said at this point.

If we can have 402/403 Ai without changing player FM then OK, just fix spiral of death and evading bullets from 600-700m and I'll be happy.

Although I'll be pleased if they just cut 404 Ai of some energy. And maybe look up for some old bugs.

RegRag1977
03-06-2006, 06:47 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifHow weird!

Seems like we all want the same http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif:

No changes with new FM ;

Little energy fix with new AI (not everything with it is bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif...)

After that Oleg, you will see a Happy Community again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Patiently waiting till that moment... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

NerdConnected
03-06-2006, 02:32 PM
SeaFireLIV,

FYI, just got a reply from Oleg. They've looked at some AI issues I've sent them (also pointed them to this thread of course), and Maddox confirms there are some issues with the current AI/FM and they will look into this and fix it.

However, he said they will not make a any code changes until the Pe-2 add-on and free map from Ian Boys (Burma) are released.

So, we just have to wait and hope that the Pe-2 add-on and the new map from Ian Boys will be released soon ;-)

Mark

shinden1974
03-06-2006, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by RegRag1977:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifHow weird!

Seems like we all want the same http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif:

No changes with new FM ;

Little energy fix with new AI (not everything with it is bad http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif...)

After that Oleg, you will see a Happy Community again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Patiently waiting till that moment... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I'm with you now, gotta put on the shades and relax... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Nimits
03-06-2006, 03:21 PM
Well, Ian Boys says he sent the first map candidate to Maddox, so hopefully it will be soon (maybe in two weeks . . .?)

NerdConnected
03-07-2006, 12:35 AM
Nimits,

It's likely they will first release the Pe-2 add-on to receive some well deserved extra income.

Shortly after that a free patch with Ian's Burma map and some code changes.

My guess: 2 months....

Mark

WWMaxGunz
03-07-2006, 12:58 AM
It's also possible that the only change is an FM that the AI find easier to fly and shoot in.

Possible that some moves AI 'perceives' as being of more advantage or towards quicker kill,
how deep does the AI go? How greedy?

How individual are the levels about it? For every green nme, how many ringers do you face?

But that's if the code difference is only FM and if the AI is set to be say able to fly a
trickier FM perhaps?

DuxCorvan
03-07-2006, 12:13 PM
My guess is this: I don't think they've changed main AI routines at all. I think that AI is programmed to use the general FMs, but in an 'easy' setting -no hard stalls, spins, blackouts, wind- with an extra 'cheat' ability in sheer energy and acceleration. Every time they make major changes in FM or virtual physics, they have to make small adjustments to AI so they don't crash the plane in a harder setting they are unable to manage, or don't exploit their Krypton abilities in an easier universe where they go berserk.

That's what I think it has happened: they changed the FMs to scrap our human control problems, but forgot to re-adjust the AI to the new settings, and they're acting like UFOs now. They just have to change the AI behavior parameters so the AI acts more gently and within some limits.

Just my theory.

Bogun
03-07-2006, 01:06 PM
I was always unhappy with AI even on ace level being so easy to shoot down and finally with v4.04 my prayers been answered. Now AI at list on the ace level can present some opposition for a little while€¦ Of course having AI seeing through the clouds and having well developed six cense to detect threats (like guns pointed at it) to start maneuvering €" it is annoying, but I may live with it, hell €" we were living with it all this time€¦

I say new AI is considerable improvement over the old one and should improved upon to make them a little tougher in horizontal maneuvering like they did in vertical.

Good job Oleg, thanks!

faustnik
03-07-2006, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by Bogun:
I was always unhappy with AI even on ace level being so easy to shoot down and finally with v4.04 my prayers been answered. Now AI at list on the ace level can present some opposition for a little while€¦ Of course having AI seeing through the clouds and having well developed six cense to detect threats (like guns pointed at it) to start maneuvering €" it is annoying, but I may live with it, hell €" we were living with it all this time€¦

I say new AI is considerable improvement over the old one and should improved upon to make them a little tougher in horizontal maneuvering like they did in vertical.

Good job Oleg, thanks!

I am flying a Ostfront Murmansk campaign in the P-40C. I've really noticed some excellent flying by certain Bf109Es, I guess they are on veteran or ace settings. They really stick to B&Z, it's a big change! Others, must be average or rookie, turn until you kill them.

Since these AI questions have cropped up, I've been watching the AI more closely. The fighters seem to be pretty good. My criticism would be that some are a little too good at difficult shots and, as Bogun said, I hate that they have X ray vision and eyes in the back of their heads. The problems show up however, in jabo mission. A lot of jabos seem to run into the ground.

Amagi
03-07-2006, 02:17 PM
The ground attack speeds and altitudes have to be tested for each patch- they may be set too low by the default Europlanes.dat. Since the AI climb from low level before an attack, I've set them higher for 'Disaster On The Frontiers', though it's early to state that this is a solution.

Harras
03-07-2006, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
I am flying a Ostfront Murmansk campaign in the P-40C. I've really noticed some excellent flying by certain Bf109Es, I guess they are on veteran or ace settings. They really stick to B&Z, it's a big change! Others, must be average or rookie, turn until you kill them.

Since these AI questions have cropped up, I've been watching the AI more closely. The fighters seem to be pretty good. My criticism would be that some are a little too good at difficult shots and, as Bogun said, I hate that they have X ray vision and eyes in the back of their heads. The problems show up however, in jabo mission. A lot of jabos seem to run into the ground.

While all the other changes in AI behaviour are generally fine with me, their strange ability to retain energy is particularly annoying. Even after a series of very hard turns they are able to outzoom the human pilot, who carefully retained his energy. In my opinion this should not happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. I think we all agree that the AI needs to be granted some advantages, like all around vision, in order to stay competitive with the player; we want opponents, not targets. But this present "energy-cheat" goes a bit too far, doesn't it? Energy tactics should pay off in an air combat sim and forcing an AI opponent to bleed his energy while I retain mine should be a key to winning an engagement.

Faustnik, what were your observations concerning that matter? What's your opinion on it?

With best regards,
Harras

RegRag1977
03-08-2006, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Harras:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
I am flying a Ostfront Murmansk campaign in the P-40C. I've really noticed some excellent flying by certain Bf109Es, I guess they are on veteran or ace settings. They really stick to B&Z, it's a big change! Others, must be average or rookie, turn until you kill them.

Since these AI questions have cropped up, I've been watching the AI more closely. The fighters seem to be pretty good. My criticism would be that some are a little too good at difficult shots and, as Bogun said, I hate that they have X ray vision and eyes in the back of their heads. The problems show up however, in jabo mission. A lot of jabos seem to run into the ground.

While all the other changes in AI behaviour are generally fine with me, their strange ability to retain energy is particularly annoying. Even after a series of very hard turns they are able to outzoom the human pilot, who carefully retained his energy. In my opinion this should not happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. I think we all agree that the AI needs to be granted some advantages, like all around vision, in order to stay competitive with the player; we want opponents, not targets. But this present "energy-cheat" goes a bit too far, doesn't it? Energy tactics should pay off in an air combat sim and forcing an AI opponent to bleed his energy while I retain mine should be a key to winning an engagement.

Faustnik, what were your observations concerning that matter? What's your opinion on it?

With best regards,
Harras </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifGreat post, you say what i think: there a little problem (not everything is bad) with energy retention...
AI doesn't lose enough energy when you consider the manoeuvers it's doing...
That is annoying for the careful and experten e fighter pilots (FW190A, for instance) because after AI cheats and wins the E fight too easily, there'e no way to turn to escape..., and then you're dead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, and that makes energy pilots angry...

PS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhi Faustnik, yes tell us your thoughts about the new AI when you 'E fight' with FW190 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Regards http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GregSM
03-08-2006, 05:41 AM
€œTheir strange ability to retain energy is particularly annoying.€


I can€t think of a dependable way to test if this is really true or not, but in my experience it€s no greater feat now than it ever was to acquire and maintain advantage in energy over an AI opponent in the same plane as oneself.

This isn€t to claim outright that they aren€t endowed with some otherworldly means of retaining energy €" I don€t really know. But, I€m satisfied that if they do, then they don€t exploit it fully, or they aren€t especially able to exchange the advantage for real tactical currency, or even manage to appear to be too crassly transgressing what little I know of natural law.


Cheers,


Greg

Harras
03-08-2006, 09:54 AM
Well, these are just my observations, gained in the QMB. I think, in campaigns the problem is not so prominent, because both friendly and enemy have this strange new energy retention. Also, most of the time you enter your fights with a considerable altitude advantage.

This is my setup in the QMB: 1vs.1 at 1000m co-altitude, me in a FW 190 A5, enemy AI (average) in a P39 N1. After the first headon I gently pull back the stick and zoom up vertically until reaching about 130 km/h, then I kick rudder, the nose points down, I dive vertically, when reaching good manoeuvring speed at about 450 km/h I gently pull out of the dive and go horizontal. The P39 however turned in the horizontal plane. Second headon, again I zoom up, again he prefers to turn. A varying number of times this is repeated, then, when I zoom up once again, he pulls a sudden and hard turn to get on my tail. He follows me into the zoom, we both zoom up, he gets nearer, but not into shooting range, he runs out of energy, tries to prolong his zoom by setting full flaps, I too set combat flaps (not full flaps because otherwise they will jam if I forget about them), kick rudder, my nose points down, he is now hanging in the sky below me like a ripe fruit, right in my sights. A short burst, done. That's how it went in 4.01, 4.02 and 4.03.

In 4.04 every move of my opponent is identical, right up to the point where he decides to follow me into my zoom after his last violent turn. Now he easily gets into shooting range - without even using his flaps - and is able to zoom up on my altitude, maybe even slightly above.

But also on other occasions you can now see AI controlled planes that out of the middle of a turn zoom up like a UFO without the slightest clue where they got the energy from to perform such manoeuvres. Also from time to time some bombers perform such zooms when you got them in your sights.

This issue should be examined, for since I am not an expert I really cannot judge but just guess. Hopefully some of our experts will soon voice their opinions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif.

SeaFireLIV
03-08-2006, 02:17 PM
So is oleg and Crew listening? Will they repair the AI to at least something approaching 4.02/3? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

sledgehammer2
03-08-2006, 04:43 PM
Seafire, I saw in another thread that Oleg is aware of all this and will look at it, but no code changes until the Pe-2/Burma map add-on. Ianboys just sent his Burma map in for approval so maybe a month or 2??

Sledgehammer2

Grey_Mouser67
03-08-2006, 05:02 PM
I saw a post where someone said he was in contact with Oleg...I am somewhat skeptical when someone claims to have a "batphone"....but hopefully he wasn't pulling our leg.

Until then, I'm going fishing

NerdConnected
03-08-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
I saw a post where someone said he was in contact with Oleg...I am somewhat skeptical when someone claims to have a "batphone"....but hopefully he wasn't pulling our leg.

Until then, I'm going fishing

Grey_Mouser67,

I don't have a personal relationship with Mr. Maddox whatsoever ;-) I wish it was different, but is isn't...

I only sent Maddox some info about a possible AI/FM issue with 4.04 and pointed them to this thread. Oleg replied and said they agree there is a problem with some AI behavior and said his programmer(s) will look into it and try to fix it.

However, he also said the Pe-2 add-on is to be released first and has priority (and Ian Boys' Burma map shortly after that). After these two are released, there is time to fix the AI/FM issue.

My guess is 2 months before the AI/FM issue is fixed, but as always, maybe more, maybe less. I was only speculating on this one, because I really don't know.

Mark

SeaFireLIV
03-08-2006, 06:19 PM
Thanx, guys and thanks to oleg and crew. Perhaps i`ll do `em another picture to celebrate. i have renewed faith. Pity we have to wait 2 months, but at least it`s being looked at. this is WHY IL2 is the best! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Thanks for the message, guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/wrestle.jpg
Little did the AI know that their new found `uberness` would not last long!

(A golden oldie).

Bearcat99
03-09-2006, 09:50 AM
I got news for you.. it isnt just the AI.. some of the FMs are... well I dont want to hijack the thread...

They also tend to congregate... often they will be doing thier own thing.. and as soon as you engage a target then you have 2 or 3 AIs going at the same target.. almost as if they are tied to your actions..

lowfighter
03-19-2006, 10:56 AM
I'm wondering if the AI histerical behaviour is UNIFORM with all AC types? I had a little fight,
109G2 versus P40M and I see the 109 doing much crazier ( the right word is actually "insane") maneuvres than the P40. And I also noticed this perpetual defensive barrel rolls with the AI not losing the energy. And a smoking Bf flying perfectly horisontal AND reverted for 20 seconds,
just to spiral down and crash into the woods http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Well, thanks for news Bearcat, waiting for the Patch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif