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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:20 AM
is this the best propeller driven fighter the germans had during the war? were there any downfalls of the plane? i dont know much about the plane but it looks very sleek and nimble.

thx in advance

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:20 AM
is this the best propeller driven fighter the germans had during the war? were there any downfalls of the plane? i dont know much about the plane but it looks very sleek and nimble.

thx in advance

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 08:45 AM
i doubt it turns worth beans.

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 09:05 AM
I thought Oleg or someone said that the Ta-152 was the best turning plane of the 190 family? Maybe I am wrong.

I think the A-9 and the Dora (357mph) were a little faster at low altitudes than the 152 (350mph), but up high the Ta goes off.

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 10:48 AM
the ta152H is pretty good up high service ceiling i think is 45,000 + ft.

the ta152C is more of a low alt plane with 1-30mm and 4-20mm.

im not sure if they are both good turners but i believe they are better than the 190's.

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 10:58 AM
Ta-152H

Pros:

-better turning and climb than FW 190A series. Best turning 190.
-better stall characteristics
-way-way-way better high altitude speed+climb (over about 6000m).. In fact, best high-altitude figther of WW2.
-Heavy armament, MK 108 being standard
-much longer range (pretty much irrevelant


Negs:

-climb and speed isn`t as good as D-9 at low altitudes. The plane isn`t any special in 1944 at low-medium alts.
-lost the unsurprassed roll rate of FW190A, though still good.
-bigger target, easier to hit
-somewhat heavier controls (not very noticable, though)

Otherwise, it`s very similiar to 190s and has their old advantages like unified throttle control, ruggedness etc.

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Message Edited on 08/20/0311:59AM by Vo101_Isegrim

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 10:58 AM
The Ta152H was developed as a High altitude interceptor with a very large wingspan - and a low wingloading - so, it should turn very well down on the deck ... however, this large wing causes bad aerodynamics and thus a low top speed at low altitudes. The Ta152C shoulf become the variant for low level operations.

Take a look here:
http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html

Greetz!

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 12:13 PM
Here is a lil story you might like about the ta 152;


Hptm Roderish Cescotti, Kommandeur of II/JG301, operated his D9 and G14 out of Welzow, often along side with Stab's ta 152. He watched a dogfight between 4 ta 152h1 and 4 p47 which took place from altitudes of 2500m down to 50m.

"A ta 152 suddentely dived out of the sun on a p47 and set it on fire but the tank continued to dive straight down, crashing at high speed." Cescotti thought about compressibility problems that could have prevented the pilot from pulling out. Both planes crashed

"Shortely thereafter,another p47 was destroyed by Fw Reschke; althoug he was not credited with the victory. Reschke was turning with the p47 about 50m above the ground when the ta152 guns suddentely jammed. No novice with 25 combat missions and 20 4 engines (b 17) victoriesto his credit, Reschke used the outstanding turn capability of his fighter to make the American pull too tight in a turn.The p47 snap roled and hit the ground with an enormous explosion"

Test pilot Friederish Schiner tookk H0 prototype up to 44785ft altitude!!!!!
He also performed high speed dive from 34000ft to determine what today would be called aircraft critical mach number
He remembers getting theh fighter up to 0.96 mach with violent rocking but this seems incredibly high.

For those of you that want good reference on the plane, try to get the monogram close up no 24 about the tank 152 thats where I took the text above there is A LOT of indications on the plane behaviour.

Hope Oleg have that book ;-)

cheers

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:10 PM
Yeah, but your Thunderbolts were Tempests in reality /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:43 PM
Yup Brem/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif and the pilot of the Tempest was P/O Mitchell.

A more comprehensive book on the Ta152 a/c is by Dieter Harmann, ISBN 0-7643-085-60-2 and it is easy to find unlike the Monogram booklet which has been out of print for a long time.


The pilot was very 'uncomfortable' phsically at high altitudes in the H. There was problems with maintaining the .36ata cockpit pressure. Fixing the leaks cause further problems and pressurization was inactivated in most a/c.(any confirm this - inactivated??)

From the Monogram, the H-0 did a complete roll in 4.9 secs.(500m @ 470kph IAS)

edit: corrected author's name

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Message Edited on 08/20/0309:23AM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:43 PM
I think Oleg once said that the Ta 152 will turn more or less like an La7.

I hope we sometime get the C model with it's higher low altitude performance. The H should rule the skies at higher altitudes though.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:49 PM
TA-152C should dominate the dogfight servers when properly used.. and the armament is sweet.. 4x 20 mm + mk108 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Interesting to see, how Oleg will model the gunsight.. same as older 190s, or make it so they can actually shoot deflection shots..

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 01:55 PM
tkx guys didnt know those where tempests in monogram, they said p47. Anyway.
On that high alt flight, Schiner could not fly the plane properly cause he was subject to hypoxia.
He stated that his vision was narrowed to a projector size view and that he flew with the left hand cause his right arm didnt respond to his mental commands


anyway, I love the plane, it s just awesome!


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 02:02 PM
4 20mm and a MK108 was intended but for weight concerns armamnet was reduced to 1 MK108 and 2 20mm MG151/20. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:24 PM
The Ta-152H will be alot of fun but the aircraft in reality was built as a high altitude interceptor.

This means that the engine, wings, and prop design are optimized for extreme altitudes.

The Jumo 213 was actually one of the very best engines of the war IMO and is usually overlooked in the endless Daimler-Benz v. Merlin debates.

Often, people refer to it's very high top-speed of over 470mph, but a great feature of the Ta-152H would be it's ability to actually carry out dogfight maneuvers above 30,000ft. due to it's wing and prop design, better than other designs like the P-47, P-51, and 109.

Where the Ta-152H will fit into the low-level nature of the FB arena and the limited altitude modelling of the 3D engine remains to be seen.


SPEED

Probably 350-360mph @SL. Not bad but not spectacular either. Kurt Tank walked away from some P-51Ds looking for something to vulch at low altitudes in an unarmed Ta-152H. So it's speed will probably be fast enough if you're careful.

It will be interesting to see how the boosting system will be modelled in FB. IIRC the Ta-152 can use 3 different types: MW-50, GM-1(higher alt.) and petrol injection. We will probably have a simplified, single WEP key like we do now.

I wonder if the Ta-152H will even reach it's top speed in FB due to the altitude restrictions of the 3D engine. Be a shame if it didn't.


CLIMB

Relatively average at low altitudes but better than most at high alt. Dora probably a better climber down low.


TURN

Oleg has said it will likely be the best of the German fighters, similar in turn to La-7. Now THAT is going to take some getting used to.


ROLL


Slowest roller of Focke-Wulf family. Still, the Ta-152 has a thru-spar wing that should remain relatively rigid and aid in roll-rate. My *guess* would be 75-80 deg/sec in the 300mph range at low altitudes. Still competitive.


FIREPOWER

Awesome! Heavy firepower concentrated in the centerline. A 30mm MK108 firing thru the prop and two inboard 20mm cannons mean that the Ta-152H is going to bring the pain in a really big way by concentrating it into a very small area.

IMO possibly the best armament configuration of any piston engine fighter of the war with the exception of the Ta-152"C".


All in all, it should be a great addition and one of the best in the sim, even at relatively low altitudes and I am very excited to see this fighter on the horizon.

I would gladly pay more than the price of FB for the Ta-152C alone though.

Or a FW190D-12 with a Jumo213F HeHe.



<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:28 PM
Some corrections: Ta-152H did not have low wing loading, it turned better because of the very good aspect ratio. Ta-152C had a similar turn characteristic with Dora, not Ta-152H.


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 03:49 PM
The H-1 was lower than the A-6 (224kg/m^2), D-9 (233kg/m^2) and C-1(288kg/m^2) with 211kg/m^2. (using TO weights respectively 4107kg, 4270kg, 5631kg, 4964kg)


Huckebein_FW wrote:
- Some corrections: Ta-152H did not have low wing
- loading, it turned better because of the very good
- aspect ratio. Ta-152C had a similar turn
- characteristic with Dora, not Ta-152H.
-


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 04:19 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- The H-1 was lower than the A-6 (224kg/m^2), D-9
- (233kg/m^2) and C-1(288kg/m^2) with 211kg/m^2.
- (using TO weights respectively 4107kg, 4270kg,
- 5631kg, 4964kg)
-
-
- Huckebein_FW wrote:
-- Some corrections: Ta-152H did not have low wing
-- loading, it turned better because of the very good
-- aspect ratio. Ta-152C had a similar turn
-- characteristic with Dora, not Ta-152H.


And? you mean that Ta152H had low wing loading??


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 04:28 PM
Yeah I'll need a while to adapt and start turnfighting in it. I didn't even notice how the new D9 behaves after the patch in turn, because I just don't turn.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 04:30 PM
FW190fan wrote:
-- I would gladly pay more than the price of FB for the
- Ta-152C alone though.
-
- Or a FW190D-12 with a Jumo213F HeHe.

Same here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nic

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:11 PM
- FW190fan wrote:
--- I would gladly pay more than the price of FB for the
-- Ta-152C alone though.
--
-- Or a FW190D-12 with a Jumo213F HeHe.

They get my vote!

The D-12 was a beast! 760km/h!! Awesome! The Ta 152H and late war Dora's had rubber sealed engine cowling joint lines. This gave the D-9 and the D-11 a speed increase of 17km/h!!
Anyways, the Ta 152H will have no peer if flown correctly. Although it was built for high alt fighting, it was never used this way. Instead all its kills came from a low and medium level dogfights with P-47's, P-51's Tempest's and Yak-9's!

And yes, bring on the the Ta 152C!! Pretty please!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:18 PM
Huckebein_FW wrote:
-
-
- And? you mean that Ta152H had low wing loading??
-
-

That is what the numbers say./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
It did compared to the other Tank fighters mentioned. Even the A-3 at 3895kg had a 213kg/m^2 loading.

Now if you want to compare it to your beloved Messish!t, then it was high./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:26 PM
With 200kg/sqm it doesn't qualify as low wingloading in any clasification. And Bf-109G and later were considered high wingloaded fighters (190kg/sqm and higher).

As I said before not wingloading or powerloading are the reasons for its turn performance but aspect ratio of the wing (which produced a lot less induced drag).


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XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:29 PM
Huck + Milo = scary combination.


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 05:52 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- Huck + Milo = scary combination.
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
----

What went over Huckie's head was, that compared to other Tank fighters in the Fw/Ta family of a/c it had a 'light' wing loading. Never said it had a light wingloading compared to other a/c Huckie, and Huckie you never mentioned other a/c in your post, only the Ta and Dora.

As for the high aspect wing, for sure it helped. All one has to do is watch a glider/sailplane stay in a thermal to recognize that./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/crandall-stormclouds2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 07:18 PM
Ta-152H wings ===> still maneuverable in the thin air at high altitudes.


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-20-2003, 11:02 PM
FW190fan wrote:

"IMO possibly the best armament configuration of any
- piston engine fighter of the war"

I couldn't agree more, I said this way back in a thread about the perfect armament. 2x20mm cannons close to centerline to cripple from short to medium distances, and a 30mm cannon right out of the nose to seal the deal. Can't wait to fly this plane.


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XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 12:23 AM
I tought the Do-335 "Pfeil" was the fastest propeler-driven AC of the LW at the end of the war..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
But I may be wrong. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 02:17 AM
do-335 is the fastest TWIN piston engined plane while the P-47M is the fastest SINGLE piston engine plane.

And i believe the ta 152C kept its extra 2-20mm cannon; total of 4-20mm and 1-30mm

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 03:24 AM
jj8325 wrote:
- is this the best propeller driven fighter the
- germans had during the war? were there any
- downfalls of the plane? i dont know much about the
- plane but it looks very sleek and nimble.
-
- thx in advance

Define BEST.. because it is a relitive term.



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