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mynameisroland
11-09-2005, 11:32 AM
Hi guys, can anybody remember where to find that post concerning a dogfight between the Hurricane and the Wildcat. It supposedly demonstrated that the Hurricane outperformed the Wildcat in mock dogfights.

Also any thoughts on how these fighters compare Bf 109 E, the P40 (early models), the Hurricane or the Spitfire? I would rank the Hurricane and P40 somewhat lower than the Spit and the 109 for a 1940's fighter your thoughts?

Zyzbot
11-09-2005, 12:06 PM
As far as the P-40 vs 109...everything I've read indicates that the only advantage the P-40 had was in turning. The 109 was better in most everything else.


"(The following is from Wing Commander Edwards. He was a Canadian in RAF service.) The Kittyhawk was apparently not an easy aircraft to learn to fly. There were several casualties in training accidents. Some Hurricane pilots simply refused to fly the type. After its initial introduction into combat squadrons, the type suffered heavily to Axis fighters. The mark 1 required a strong right arm to control. It picked up speed in a dive very quickly and was determined to roll right. While this could be controled with trim, this provided a strong tendency to pull left violently in a pull up. In a dogfight, these handling problems were a constant distraction.

The Mark 3 not only had much improved lateral stability, and became a good stable fighter, but never had the power or climbing ability of the top rated contemporary fighters, such as the Spitfire or Me 109. Also during the high G€s of dogfighting, the guns could jam. Its cruising speed was comparable to the Spitfire 8 & 9, it just had no jump on the throttle as the Spitfire did. The Kittyhawk 3 could out-maneuver the Me 109, though again, not as well as the Spitfire. In fact, the only maneuver that could truly thwart an Axis attack, was a steep turn into the attacker. Some RCAF fighter pilots were of the opinion that in order to truly appreciate the Spitfire, a tour in Kittyhawks was required! The RCAF made use of the Marks 1, 3, and 4, eventually acquring 143 fighters. The Kittyhawk was retired from service in 1946.(American equivalents: Kittyhawk 1=P-40D, Kittyhawk1A=P-40E, Kittyhawk 2=P-40F, Kittyhawk 3=P-40K-M, Kittyhawk 4=P-40N"

horseback
11-09-2005, 02:21 PM
the Hurri vs Wildcat story was told on these boards a while back; as I recall, the Hurri pilots were flying Mk XIIs (Canadian built Mk IIbs) against F4F-4s, and made the most of their advantages in power loading-climb, accelleration, etc.

The USN pilots were combat vets, tho, and after chasing Zeros for a few months, were not as concerned with getting on someone's tail as they were with getting a shot. A live fire exercise might not have turned out as well for the RCAF types.

The Dash-4 Wildcat was painfully sluggish, due to all the extra weight of its folding wings. It compared poorly to most land-based types, but it was vastly superior to the other Allied carrier fighters of the time, and it could turn sharply and land a heavy punch with six fifties.

As for the Commonwealth Air Forces' experiences with the Tomahawk and Kittyhawk, one needs only to compare their results to American fighter units flying the same types against the same opponents. The Commonwealth's initial users of the P-40 variants were not given sufficient familiarization time before entering combat in it, nor did they develop effective tactics for the type for quite some time, and they suffered for trying to use it like a Hurricane or Spitfire.

To be fair, they did not enjoy the luxury of the necessary time.

For starters, though, the P-40/B/C/E all had heavier guns than the Hurricane, excepting the Mk IIc, whose cannon weighed it down even worse than the already sluggish 12X.303 armed IIb. The Tomahawk was faster in level flight up to about 15,000 ft than the Hurri(especially when said Hurri was weighed down with a Vokes' filter), although not quite as fast as the Spit or 109. At the very least it was competitive in speed and better in the horizontal turn with its primary opponent in N. Africa.

Its climb was generally acknowleged as pathetic, but its dive was unmatched (with a pretty respectable zoom)until the arrival of the P-47. It was much more rugged than the British or German aircraft in the Western Desert (and it had to be, being a much larger target). Certainly, no jaegerflieger wanted to be caught looking up at an attacking P-40.

American units in North Africa and the Far East enjoyed better success (after the early reverses in the Philippines and Dutch East Indies) overall because they had a better idea of what their aircraft could and couldn't do against their opponents, and quickly developed useful tactics from the bottom up.

It's the same old story: as long as the machines are not grossly mismatched, it's the man not the machine. The P-40 was usually 'close enough' as long as the man in the cockpit had his sh*t together.

cheers

horseback

fordfan25
11-09-2005, 02:33 PM
wildcats are a good bit more heavy than the hurries arnt thay? do to the needs of constant carrier ops.

Waldo.Pepper
11-10-2005, 10:36 AM
Hi guys, can anybody remember where to find that post concerning a dogfight between the Hurricane and the Wildcat. It supposedly demonstrated that the Hurricane outperformed the Wildcat in mock dogfights.


I remember the post. Some idiot made it a while ago. Here:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m...791017482#4791017482 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/4791017482/r/4791017482#4791017482)

Rebel_Yell_21
11-10-2005, 11:07 AM
Yeah, they shoulda banned that guy.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

L33T-Zoolander
11-10-2005, 11:35 PM
The early Hurri IIc's were slow, but fairly moanoeuverable and packed a nice punch.
The 4.02 Hurri can usually get off the ground and fly to a safe parachute height above the ground. It can't get on the tail of anything, except early war bombers that will promptly shoot it down. If you are an habitual parachutist whom can bail out with great alacrity, the 4.02 Hurri is the plane for you.

Beer Cans (Wildcats) used to be my favorite planes. They weren't fast enough (by any stretch of the imagination) to carry an air battle, but they handled nicely. Overall, a ton of fun to fly, with every engagement a hair raising experience.
Then came the 4.01 patch, where the powers that be decided Widlcats couldn't overheat fast enough. With the 4.02 patch, they appear to heat up faster than P&W powered Tommy Cookers (Sherman tanks). In the next patch I expect they'll simply explode when you start the motor.

One the T&B planes that fared the best of the 4.02 patch is the Ki43. It was always a sweet plane to fly, but now it has a bit more more zip and a healthy dive acceleration. With the new damage models, the puny guns are more than adequate. Then again, whith the new damage models a well aimed pistol should be more than adequate.
Fortunately side arms are not modeled. It would not do to have a rabble of bush pilots bush whacking a bloody bunch of bombers with Smith and Wessons.

For energy conservationists, the P-40 is always fun. Especially if you have a little help from above. That would mean a 190, not a deiety.

Good Hunting,
Zoo