PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts about Allied Cannons in the Battle Of Britain



Xiolablu3
07-17-2005, 06:26 AM
been looking for information on cannons on Hurricans and Spits in the Battle Of Britain.

Previously I thought there was only one Hurricane armed with 2 cannons in the Battle Of Britain and no Spits but this isnt true.

These are just findings there may be more, I will add more as I find out.

Quoted pieces are taken straight from the book 'Battle Of Britain - Jon Lake'.

'The debut of a 4x20mm Hurricane came on 5th Sept and was highly succesful.'

3rd Sept - 'No19 Squadron entered the fight with 8 of its cannon armed Spitfires' - but 6 of them suffered stoppages in the cannon. (Taken from a very good book 'Battle Of Britain' which documents every day of the battle and shows real losses.

There was of course the cannon armed Hurri with 2x20mm which we know about from previous threads whose windscreen shattered so he had to land.

Any other findings?

Of course most Hurris and Spits had the 8x303 and so its debateable that these planes should make it in to the game or not. It would be nigh on impossible to model the unreliability of the cannon, plus every Spit or Hurri taken up to fight would be a cannon armed one if it was, meaning the game would be inaccurate.

OD_79
07-17-2005, 06:43 AM
The Spitfire MkIb was armed with two 20mm Cannon, I don't think that the Hurricane IIC came into service until the end of the year but I could be wrong I'd have to check. I don't really think that they should make it into BoB as there were so few of them around, plus like you said the cannon were very unreliable.

OD.

F19_Olli72
07-17-2005, 06:57 AM
This info is from "Fighter Boys" by Patrick Bishop:

The first 3 Spit Mk Ib's with cannons was delivered to 19 squadron at Duxford at the end of June 1940. George Unwin was amongst the first pilots to fly it; "They were absolutely uselsess. You could only fire [when] absolutely straight and level" Pilots found that the mildest G forces were enough to make the nose of the bullet dip and jam in the breech when they pressed the firing button.

During the next six weeks the squadron was operating mainly out of Fowlmere and they had 5 encounters with german formations. When cannon shells struck the raiders they did spectacular damage, shooting away propellers and tailplanes and setting engines ablaze. But virtually every plane suffered stoppages on every outing.

Squadron leader Philip Pinkham later had enough of trying to make the new armament work. Strongly backed by his pilot, he petitioned Dowding for the return of their old machine-gun equipped fighters. On the 5th september Pinkham led his men in the machine gun equipped fighters for patrol. However he made a big tactical mistake ordering an attack from below and into the sun. Pinkham was last seen flying towards a group of Dorniers before apparently falling victim to the Messerschmitts.

The cannon problem was eventually overcome by the installation of a beltfeeding system, a solution that had been considered from the outset. The decision to persist with an unpromising experiment meant that the squadron had been sent into action with guns that were known to be faulty. The unit would have inflicted much more damage on Luftwaffe had it been armed with its old weapons.

VW-IceFire
07-17-2005, 07:29 AM
Lots of field testing of the 20mm cannons I discovered in research for an essay on BoB. Nothing widspread about the 20mm cannon use by the RAF until long after BoB was over.

Low_Flyer_MkII
07-17-2005, 07:33 AM
We've been here before.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7631...221042733#6221042733 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7631080733/r/6221042733#6221042733)

Stigler_9_JG52
07-17-2005, 12:03 PM
And here's where Oleg needs to exercise restraint in design.

It's clear that the cannon armed Spits are not "standard versions" during BoB. Thus, they should not be available for any kind of historic campaign. AND, the descriptions of the planes need to be written that way, so that designers who don't know otherwise won't just "pick the cannon version, because it has more punch than the .303 version".

Also, since we don't model "jamming" and quality problems, you'd think the "availability date" of this plane would be at the point when they'd fixed the problems, another clue as to when they "should" be available for service in representative numbers.

Wishful thinking, I know, since the Pandora's box is already wide open with "the 6" MiG-3Us, the I-185, the 109Z, etc., etc., etc. But, the designer can always go back and redress problems like this if he has a will to. And the new BoB system (which I assume, if successful, will later incorporate updated versions of all the IL-2/FB/AEP/PF planes) is a golden opportunity to make that happen.

ploughman
07-17-2005, 12:58 PM
We don't do jamming/reliability in this sim but maybe 1C'll offer than in BoB.

Heliopause
07-18-2005, 06:11 AM
"Duxford was the premier No 12 Group station, and its squadrons were Leigh-Mallory's elite, Nos 19 and 310.
No 19 squadron , with whom Douglas Bader had served earlier in the year, was now commanded by the able Regular Squadron Leader R. Pinkham. It was equipped with the Spitfire Mk IB's, wich were armed with two 20mm Hispano cannon and four .303-inch machine-guns."

Taken from the book: Bader: the man and his men

JG53Frankyboy
07-18-2005, 06:25 AM
these early canon Spitfires had no .303cal as "sidearms" - only the two, very unreliable canons........
but, it would be nice to have these birds in BoB - if they can only fire when you are flying straight - and would have stopage if you pull/push to much G http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the HurricaneMk.IIc had also very often two canons removed when flying with the DAF - two canons were deadly enough and loosing the weight of the other two canons safed weight.
als the Spitfire Mk.Vc $canon flew often only with 2 canons.

stubby
07-18-2005, 07:22 AM
How real do you guys want? I mean if we get totally hardcore, the German fighters will only have 5 minutes of dogfight time over English skies before they MUST RTB or run the risk of getting a belly full of the Engish Channel. Of course the survival rate of downed pilots in the Channel was very low. So, if we're going to start modeling jammed guns then accurate fuel burn rates must also be modeled.

Abbuzze
07-18-2005, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by stubby:
How real do you guys want? I mean if we get totally hardcore, the German fighters will only have 5 minutes of dogfight time over English skies before they MUST RTB or run the risk of getting a belly full of the Engish Channel. Of course the survival rate of downed pilots in the Channel was very low. So, if we're going to start modeling jammed guns then accurate fuel burn rates must also be modeled.

I think it would be great! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif 109 fighting over London for hours would be boring and unrealistic. So why not modell this??

Our green laser Shkas MG would be much less liked if the often jamming would be modelled!

Heliopause
07-18-2005, 07:35 AM
From internet:

Spitfire Mk IB Supermarine Type 300.
Version of Mk I with two 20 mm Hispano cannon with 60 rpg. First batch (June 1940) with 2 cannon only. Second batch (November 1940) with 4 0.303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine guns as well as 2 cannon in wings. Projecting gun barrels and blisters in top wing surface.

F19_Olli72
07-18-2005, 07:38 AM
Originally posted by stubby:
How real do you guys want? I mean if we get totally hardcore, the German fighters will only have 5 minutes of dogfight time over English skies before they MUST RTB or run the risk of getting a belly full of the Engish Channel. Of course the survival rate of downed pilots in the Channel was very low. So, if we're going to start modeling jammed guns then accurate fuel burn rates must also be modeled.

Fuel consumption is already modelled in FB/PF, how correct it is calculated i dont know. Also there has been very little said about the map (maps?) in BoB with operational areas. Is Denmark and Norway present?

Most guns/cannons jammed at one point or another, not just prototypes. Jamming is only modelled in FB/PF by damage.

About channel ditching, many pilots drowned. Survival rate was low and only a few lucky ones were saved by seaplanes or ships. Thats another thing not modelled in FB/PF as a bailout over sea has no 'drowning/hypothermia/sharkattack' variable. Id like to see something like that calculated, because in reality conseqenses of a bailout could lead to death anyway. And i'd like the instant refly to be removed after bailout.

JG53Frankyboy
07-18-2005, 08:44 AM
southern england is more than "just" London. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

and sure the planes in BoB should have a "realistic" fuel consumption ! if maddox wants, he can make that as an difficulty option - but it has to be , otherwise its no flightsim - espacially no BoB one where range was an important factor.

btw, a Bf109G-2 can fly 54min at 100% power in PFm 4.01 - not bad calculated from the maddox team !

Friendly_flyer
07-18-2005, 10:32 AM
We already have the option of selecting limited or unlimited fuel. I see no reason we won't have it in BoB. Now, realistic or unfailable guns, that would be cool!

lbhskier37
07-18-2005, 12:10 PM
If we get spits and hurris with wing cannons, it would also be cool to get 109Es with the prop hub cannon (not sure what variant tried that) with the unreliablity it had.

RedDeth
07-18-2005, 01:19 PM
everyones missing the major point. olegs battle of britain is not going to be about the battle of britain. that wouldnt sell.

its a starting point and the game will come with more than just 1939 1940 planes. if it only has 1939 planes the game wont sell

Dunkelgrun
07-18-2005, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
everyones missing the major point. olegs battle of britain is not going to be about the battle of britain. that wouldnt sell.

its a starting point and the game will come with more than just 1939 1940 planes. if it only has 1939 planes the game wont sell


Only aircraft that were in action in north-western Europe up to October 1940 will be in it; that's why the working title is 'Battle of Britain: White Cliffs of Dover'.

And of course it will sell http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Maybe not to those with interest only in their own country, but IL-2 sold and it wasn't bought solely by Russians and Germans.

Anyway, you'd better hope that it sells or the expansion will never reach December 1941 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Cheers!

bolillo_loco
07-18-2005, 02:31 PM
considering that the bf 109 will probably have some rediculous prop pitch exploit and out turn the spitfire due to a million arm chair engineers I think it should be called "to infinity and beyond" and all bf 109s should be painted like buzz light year

JG53Frankyboy
07-18-2005, 02:46 PM
totaly correct!

most Emils during BoB had no propeller automatik http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-18-2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by RedDeth:
everyones missing the major point. olegs battle of britain is not going to be about the battle of britain. that wouldnt sell.

its a starting point and the game will come with more than just 1939 1940 planes. if it only has 1939 planes the game wont sell

well, all of olegs statement are saying the oposite - timeframe and planes will be June/July 1940 till October/November 1940.

propably there will be planeadons for later years of the channel battle.
also oleg is planninmg to go to the MTO - but thats far in the future...........

FritzGryphon
07-19-2005, 04:13 AM
I hate to be alarmist, but count the gun barrels on this one. And is it supposed to have those ammo blisters?

Two, four, six...

http://www.airwarfare.com/Sims/IL2BOB/images/updates/aircraft/s0322-2d.jpg

Nah, I'm just yanking your chain.