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Noxx0s
02-08-2010, 01:04 PM
Can someone explain how to roll "correctly", by that I mean in such a way a way as to take advantage of the 190's super fast roll rate to get out of sticky situations? Basically, I'm trying to figure out how to learn to use the roll to negate the 190's turn disadvantage. How do I do this?

One guy was telling me I need to use it to quickly roll out and dive away before the enemy can tell what direction I'm going... but I'm having trouble visualizing this... can someone help me out here?

Also, I've heard it's good in a scissors fight because of the roll rate... but I must be misunderstanding something here, because to my knowledge a scissors fight is two guys doing yoyos opposite each other (i.e. no rolling necessary).

Thanks for the help guys.

I really want to learn to fly this plane, I absolutely LOVE the insane dive control you have with it even when you're blasting by at 800 kphs, not to mention the armament and ammo quantity.

Plus it just looks badass http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

I managed to pull off a few swoop and dive BnZ kills with it today... pretty satisfying to make that split second shot and glance over my shoulder to watch my target hurtle toward the ground in a ball of flame whilst soaring up towards the sky again, untouched http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Also, another problem I've been having... when I climb several thousand meters above the fray where everyone is dogfighting... how do I tell who is who? Now obviously, if someone's firing I can identify by tracer color, but I would like to not be restricted to only attacking when someone's shooting at my teammate. How do you tell which dark colored dots are which?

M_Gunz
02-08-2010, 01:54 PM
Point roll? If your roll barrels on you then you have to use rudder to correct that but not over-correct.
Barrel roll makes you harder to hit and allows you to pull out very well in many different directions.

Roll to change direction? Do that while you are heading upwards or downwards. Point your 'up' in the
direction you want to go and pull the nose to point that way.

na85
02-08-2010, 01:55 PM
One guy was telling me I need to use it to quickly roll out and dive away before the enemy can tell what direction I'm going... but I'm having trouble visualizing this... can someone help me out here?

Well there are a lot of ways you could potentially do it, but most if not all come from the ability to get "out of phase" with the enemy aircraft. By this I mean since you can roll faster, you can get to the point where your wings are not parallel with his wings.

When this happens, if you pull back on the stick it is impossible for him to follow since he is on a different maneuver plane. If bounced you can use this to roll out of plane and extend for separation in preparation for your next move.


Also, I've heard it's good in a scissors fight because of the roll rate... but I must be misunderstanding something here, because to my knowledge a scissors fight is two guys doing yoyos opposite each other (i.e. no rolling necessary).

To guys doing yo-yos following each other in a circle is... just that. I don't believe it has a name. What the person who told you that was referring to is a flat scissors, not to be confused with a rolling scissors which is more like two people corkscrewing around each other.

A flat scissors is when both you and your adversary make nose-to-nose turns towards each other multiple times. The idea is to reduce your forward velocity without actually slowing down. So you fly a longer path than he does, which results in him overshooting and you getting a guns solution (ideally).

The Scissors (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_054a.html)

Personally I try to avoid getting into a scissors with the 190 since the more you turn and the more G's you pull, the greater the tendency for the fight to slow way down. The FW190's slow-speed controllability is not so great, and some adversaries will enjoy a turn radius advantage over you at slow speeds.


I managed to pull off a few swoop and dive BnZ kills with it today... pretty satisfying to make that split second shot and glance over my shoulder to watch my target hurtle toward the ground in a ball of flame whilst soaring up towards the sky again, untouched http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Don't be fooled. That is the preferred method of getting kills, particularly in the FW190 series with their big guns and good dive characteristics. Get in, blast them, and then GTFO. All the fancy maneuvers are secondary.


Also, another problem I've been having... when I climb several thousand meters above the fray where everyone is dogfighting... how do I tell who is who? Now obviously, if someone's firing I can identify by tracer color, but I would like to not be restricted to only attacking when someone's shooting at my teammate. How do you tell which dark colored dots are which?

It takes lots of practice. You can't always tell right away. But after a while you will learn to identify dots by their behavior. For instance if there is a dot diving really really fast, it's probably not a Russian aircraft. If there is a dot really really high and you're in a western front scenario it's likely it's an american fighter rather than a spitfire.

You will also learn to identify dots from further out as you progress. You'll be able to say "hmm, I think I can see some yellow on that dot... could be a Bf109" and then when you get closer you'll find out if you were right or not.

Romanator21
02-08-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't fly the Fw-190 too much, but I use BnZ in several other planes such as the Bf-109, Bf-110, and even the P-47 and P-51. As for dots, I just swoop down regardless. If it's friendly, I don't shoot, and zoom back up and reset. Those maybe only 1/2 of my zooms are on a real bogey, but it's not a problem for me. I've not had a friendly kill since I collided with someone who spawned in my taxi path http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

You can use the roll rate of the Fw-190 to confuse your opponents in several ways. I am right handed, so it's very easy for me and most pilots to roll to the left (pulling the stick inward). So, I may roll to the left and then quickly reverse and go to the right (slightly unnatural for right handed players). With the good roll rate of the Fw, the other player is usually still just turning out of that leftward bank.

Scissors is one thing I haven't used, but should learn/practise. Someone else can help you there.

Fogmaster_
02-08-2010, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Romanator21:
...Those maybe only 1/2 of my zooms are on a real bogey, but it's not a problem for me. I've not had a friendly kill since I collided with someone who spawned in my taxi path http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
...

Not to be a stickler... but in case you are ever on comms (Teamspeak / Ventrilo) with other pilots, a Bogey is Unidentified while a Bandit is Confirmed Hostile.

I do agree with swooping down on them to ID first. Just remember, If you are Unsure if your target is hostile or not it is better to disengage rather than to attack. (You will get better at this with time)

Also, this may sound stupid and I am not trying to insult you if you already know this but NEVER get into a turn fight in a FW190 unless you are high speeds (Above 350 KM/H) Your best bet is to KEEP your altitude. Come down for a pass, if you miss DO NOT be tempted to try and get around on the tail of your bandit. GO back up and try again. You never know when his wingman is lurking somehwere in your blindspot waiting to pull lead.

DKoor
02-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Because of the game physics engine & load of other factors this game will favor turn rate three times before it favors roll once.

Another words, you being a noob or experienced guy once in trouble you will want to have superior turn rate much better than superior roll rate over your game opponent. And you will definitely want speed, lots of it.

Believe me.

FW-190 can utilize its roll rate good and you will find yourself doing it pretty often but truth being told, you'd be better of the less you maneuver with that plane.

ps. your FW will be extremely happy if you don't move its elevator surface much.

BillSwagger
02-08-2010, 05:00 PM
I prefer the roll advantage to turn advantage but the key here is to stay fast. Most planes in game roll at similar rates at lower speeds.

If you are being bounced or tailed at high speed you can do a break turn to the right (or left) and once your opponent begins to pull lead on you roll the opposite way. You can do this in any plane with the roll advantage not just a 190.

I've also noticed that roll can negate a turn disadvantage in some maneuvers. Its hard to describe with out being too wordy or confusing matters more. Basically, your opponent makes a tighter circle than you, but you can always yo yo and use the roll rate to point your nose on his tail. This works in the vertical and horizontal but the key is speed.

There are a couple planes that enjoy a roll advantage though not always over the 190, most other opponents. I really got keen to the idea flying on jet servers. In fact if you want to polish your energy tactics i would recommend flying on a jet server for a couple hours. You can't always make the tightest turn because it blacks you out or slows you down so you begin to see where roll has its place.


Bill

Frankthetank36
02-08-2010, 07:25 PM
As mentioned earlier, it's great for dealing with bandits on your tail. Just roll around randomly every half second or so and they'll never really be able to line up for a good shot while you drag them toward your base. It's also useful for dogfighting in the vertical since you can change direction quickly; come down for the first pass, zoom up again, and come down for another about 10 seconds later.

na85
02-08-2010, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
As mentioned earlier, it's great for dealing with bandits on your tail. Just roll around randomly every half second or so and they'll never really be able to line up for a good shot while you drag them toward your base. It's also useful for dogfighting in the vertical since you can change direction quickly; come down for the first pass, zoom up again, and come down for another about 10 seconds later.

Yep. It's very handy as a defensive maneuver.

In a Forgotten Skies mission I was flying a 109G-6 and got tangled up with 2 P-38's at low alt. I brought one down but took flak damage and had to get out of dodge, which let the 2nd 38 get on my tail.

I used my roll rate advantage to keep my wings out of plane with his and trimmed a little nose-up so that my aircraft would automatically turn if I banked. Even though I couldn't get away from him, I was able to twist and turn until he ran out of ammo and RTB'ed. I then nursed my wounded bird back to base.

Jumoschwanz
02-08-2010, 08:20 PM
The simplest example of using the Fw190a to evade pursuers that I remember is that a number of times I had an aircraft on my tail attacking me that I knew had a poor roll rate at high speed. I would go into a bit of a dive and be turning and looking back at them over my shoulder, when the time came I knew they were getting close to taking a shot, I would just continue my roll another 180 degrees and suddenly be turning the opposite direction. They of course were unnerved by this and usually had no choice but to break off and zoom back up or I would be able to change directions once or twice more and get a shot on them.

To I.D. aircraft you are zooming towards when you are flying hard settings without the crutch of icons, you simply have to learn the shapes of the different aircraft really well, and you have to fly using high resolution. I have flown 1600x1200 exclusively for years now. I have always been able to I.D. aircraft almost 100%. For example in a month of stats on Spitsvs109s where I shot down over 100 aircraft, mostly with the fw190, I only had maybe one or two times I hit a friendly, if that.

I have some High Def videos up on YouTube here of me flying the fw190 on hard settings:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#g/u



The roll rate of the FW190 is good to have, but it is not a magic wand, for it to be an advantage you have to have an opponent with a much slower roll rate and you have to know what you are doing, and that is a combination that may not come up as often as you would like. P-40s, Corsairs, and other aircraft roll very fast or well enough that a good pilot will not have a problem dealing with your 190. I have shot down FW190s using many different allied aircraft.

Knowing your aircraft and your opponents aircraft is one small piece of the pie besides knowing how to shoot, pan views, and having enough hours doing everything so you can do it without a thought when you have to.

M_Gunz
02-09-2010, 01:43 AM
How fast you can roll when you are going off-flat is how fast and close you can track and align with
other planes and ground targets. You don't have forever in a dive or climb, best climbing roll is
during a zoom climb. You really don't want to get caught climbing below 300kph and more realistic
is not below 400kph vs Spit Vb's. All you have to do is leave and come back higher while he rejoins
the turnfighter furball. You have the speed, you have that much more initiative.

Ever stayed up late and watched bats nab the moths around a streetlamp? The differences their arcs
are? Like WWI 2-seaters being picked off by 109K's. Whirrrr, whirrrr, zoom, flutter, boom, nothing,
zoom! And it's all smooth and seamless for the bat. The moth only knows he was whirring innocently
along when out of his left he thought he saw something and then he was turning for a look when that
was all she wrote. BTW, that is much of why why I prefer the faster planes over the slower. I'd
rather not be the moth. They move in such small circles.

TinyTim
02-09-2010, 02:42 AM
In my humble opinion the Fw-190 as modelled in IL-2 bleeds way too much energy during turns, which makes it nearly impossible to prevail versus better turning worse rolling opponents in scissors.

One situation where I effectively used scissors many times versus spitfires in a Fw-190A is during dives. Gravity at least partially makes up for a horrendous E-bleed, and you can with a bit of luck outscissor a pursuing spitfire, get on his tail and shoot him down before he gets away. But, like others said, it takes a lot of practice.

No way however you can do something like this versus an experienced pilot in a horisontal plane. You will simply bleed to much and become a sitting duck (which I honestly believe wasn't the case in real situations, but that's already another story).

K_Freddie
02-09-2010, 01:02 PM
With a bit of practice you can simultaneously..
- Pull the stick to either back right, or left corner, while kicking hard on the rudder right or left to add to the roll rate.

Be aware that the rudder application will get you into a violent spin, but if applied for a split second, you can nearly double your roll rate.

You'll have to 'jockey' the controls during this move to keep control.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

edt: Rolling left is quicker than rolling right.. but you can spin easier http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

K_Freddie
02-15-2010, 04:18 PM
Took me a while to get my uplink going (darkest africa http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif)
FW190 move-around (50MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/Scissors.avi)

Gives you an idea of what you can do..
AFAIR this movie is slowed down to quarter (0.25) speed ('flown'(VR) at 1x speed of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

K_Freddie
02-15-2010, 04:53 PM
For the different types of pilots on this forum..

1) Those that have 3D visualisation
Just by looking at this clip you can see the 'subtle' control movements that keep control of the a/c

2)Those that like formulae and charts
I'm afraid this clip will not help you in the least
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kettenhunde
02-15-2010, 08:19 PM
A Displacement roll is one way to beat superior slow speed turn performance with a more agile aircraft.

It is an energy neutral maneuver which means the aircraft is at the same energy level it started at when the maneuver is complete.


If you are rapidly closing on a bogey with lateral separation and low TCA, a displacement roll would be a better maneuver to choose than a high yo-yo. A displacement roll reduces excessive closure by displacing your aircraft relative to the bogey’s flight path. Additionally, the maneuver can move your aircraft to a different plane of maneuvering (lag pursuit) behind the bogey, while maintaining your energy package.

http://www.tpub.com/content/av...-1222/P-12220028.htm (http://www.tpub.com/content/aviation2/P-1222/P-12220028.htm)

VXB77016
02-15-2010, 08:20 PM
Hey Icy,

If you're having difficulty visualizing the great advice that has been offered so far, it might be useful to set up an AI round with you flying a poor rolling aircraft (P-38, Zero, Bf-110) vs. an AI opponent that has a strong tendency to roll (Claude, Buffalo, Fokker). Try to stick with the AI as he starts his long series of demented rolls and you'll quickly get a sense for what many have been talking about.

Also be aware that the AI is great at keeping you at bay while it's doing the demented roll routine, but it fails to separate once it has you out of synch. In a 190 you'll generally want to separate in the vertical (energy state and alt dictates which way) once you get your opponent out of synch.

Hope this helps.

Noxx0s
02-15-2010, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by VXB77016:
Hey Icy,

If you're having difficulty visualizing the great advice that has been offered so far, it might be useful to set up an AI round with you flying a poor rolling aircraft (P-38, Zero, Bf-110) vs. an AI opponent that has a strong tendency to roll (Claude, Buffalo, Fokker). Try to stick with the AI as he starts his long series of demented rolls and you'll quickly get a sense for what many have been talking about.

Also be aware that the AI is great at keeping you at bay while it's doing the demented roll routine, but it fails to separate once it has you out of synch. In a 190 you'll generally want to separate in the vertical (energy state and alt dictates which way) once you get your opponent out of synch.

Hope this helps.

Great advice, thanks, I'll try that asap and report back http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

VXB77016
02-15-2010, 10:40 PM
Great!

Just saddle up on him, hold your fire, and try to keep rolling with him. It'll be bucket loads of fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To learn to use the 190s roll rate (and climb ability) offensively within narrow confines, dial up that same AI set and learn to pull into the vertical as they start their maddening series of rolls. Climb vertically as they roll for all they're worth and use your outstanding roll rate to maintain visual contact with them as you climb in the vertical, then ease over and hammer them on a near verticle slashing attack. Your roll ability should allow you to quickly transition from looking straight up out of the cockpit (down toward the ground and your target) into a firing solution through your sights. You're not going to get sustained bursts into them with this technique, but given your firepower, you don't need it. Be patient! It normally takes a yo-yo or several to attain a killing firing solution, but that doesn't matter--they were effectively dead the moment you established the alt/E advantage. Keep bludgeoning them in the vertical and wait for high probabilty shots.

I'm something of a P-39 specialists, and this is my bread and butter technique in the P-39. Given that the Butcher Bird is the -39's big brother performance and weapon wise, this technique is great for knife fighting more agile turn fighters. But remember to be gentle with the -190 at the apex of your yo-yo's loop, it likes to bite you while inverted at the top of a loop.

Finally, remember that this is only an AI exercise to teach you how to use your roll rate in close quarters, doing this online will put you into a dangerously low E state while in crowded skies.

Noxx0s
02-18-2010, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by VXB77016:
Great!

Just saddle up on him, hold your fire, and try to keep rolling with him. It'll be bucket loads of fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To learn to use the 190s roll rate (and climb ability) offensively within narrow confines, dial up that same AI set and learn to pull into the vertical as they start their maddening series of rolls. Climb vertically as they roll for all they're worth and use your outstanding roll rate to maintain visual contact with them as you climb in the vertical, then ease over and hammer them on a near verticle slashing attack. Your roll ability should allow you to quickly transition from looking straight up out of the cockpit (down toward the ground and your target) into a firing solution through your sights. You're not going to get sustained bursts into them with this technique, but given your firepower, you don't need it. Be patient! It normally takes a yo-yo or several to attain a killing firing solution, but that doesn't matter--they were effectively dead the moment you established the alt/E advantage. Keep bludgeoning them in the vertical and wait for high probabilty shots.

I'm something of a P-39 specialists, and this is my bread and butter technique in the P-39. Given that the Butcher Bird is the -39's big brother performance and weapon wise, this technique is great for knife fighting more agile turn fighters. But remember to be gentle with the -190 at the apex of your yo-yo's loop, it likes to bite you while inverted at the top of a loop.

Finally, remember that this is only an AI exercise to teach you how to use your roll rate in close quarters, doing this online will put you into a dangerously low E state while in crowded skies.

Hmmm... try as I might I can't seem to figure out how to assign a specific AI (the "rolling" AI as you mentioned) in a quick battle, I only see ability to change the overall skill level (rookie, ace etc.)... and in the full mission builder I coudln't see how to even place a unit. Any help?

thanks

Noxx0s
02-18-2010, 03:31 PM
Does anyone have any tracks saved of offensive/defensive tactics in a 190? Especially the Dora?

Sillius_Sodus
02-19-2010, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VXB77016:
Great!

Just saddle up on him, hold your fire, and try to keep rolling with him. It'll be bucket loads of fun http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To learn to use the 190s roll rate (and climb ability) offensively within narrow confines, dial up that same AI set and learn to pull into the vertical as they start their maddening series of rolls. Climb vertically as they roll for all they're worth and use your outstanding roll rate to maintain visual contact with them as you climb in the vertical, then ease over and hammer them on a near verticle slashing attack. Your roll ability should allow you to quickly transition from looking straight up out of the cockpit (down toward the ground and your target) into a firing solution through your sights. You're not going to get sustained bursts into them with this technique, but given your firepower, you don't need it. Be patient! It normally takes a yo-yo or several to attain a killing firing solution, but that doesn't matter--they were effectively dead the moment you established the alt/E advantage. Keep bludgeoning them in the vertical and wait for high probabilty shots.

I'm something of a P-39 specialists, and this is my bread and butter technique in the P-39. Given that the Butcher Bird is the -39's big brother performance and weapon wise, this technique is great for knife fighting more agile turn fighters. But remember to be gentle with the -190 at the apex of your yo-yo's loop, it likes to bite you while inverted at the top of a loop.

Finally, remember that this is only an AI exercise to teach you how to use your roll rate in close quarters, doing this online will put you into a dangerously low E state while in crowded skies.

Hmmm... try as I might I can't seem to figure out how to assign a specific AI (the "rolling" AI as you mentioned) in a quick battle, I only see ability to change the overall skill level (rookie, ace etc.)... and in the full mission builder I coudln't see how to even place a unit. Any help?

thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The higher the ai's setting, the more they will roll and do other crazy stuff.

You can choose an aircraft's unit in the aircraft 'view object' screen where you chose an aircraft's nationality.

K_Freddie
02-20-2010, 02:47 AM
Originally posted by IcyScythe:
Does anyone have any tracks saved of offensive/defensive tactics in a 190? Especially the Dora?
Some Version 4.08 stuff I have from yonks ago that you might find usefull.

Offline:
Flying the FW190-A9 (99KB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FW_Flight1.zip)

High altitude Dora and A9 (125KB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FWFlt23.zip)

Playing with a SpitLF(103KB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FWSPitLF.zip)

Yak3 going to fast (44KB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/Overshoot.zip)

OnLine (where there is no thick AI):
Hectic online play (1.8MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/SomeHLServer.zip)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

ROXunreal
02-20-2010, 07:10 AM
For any and all whiners about the FW's roll rate and split-S getaways http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ROXunreal/rollin.jpg

Noxx0s
02-20-2010, 07:20 AM
Thanks for the tips guys, I've gotten a lot better at defensive tactics especially, and offensive too as I improve in deflection shooting... One split second burst is all it takes with the 4 cannons and 2 guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Using scissors and multiple quick rolls + split s alone has significantly improved my survivability http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Still got a long way to go though. I'm really struggling with doing scissors without relying on external views too... having a hard time maintaining situational awareness while looking out the back and still flying decently.

Also tough I find is slowing down enough to let the bandit get close to where the scissors is useful and I can force an overshoot without getting shot down in the process (while he's drawing near).

K_Freddie
02-20-2010, 07:53 AM
Another little hint about timing..
In the fist pic you can see the a/c's nose is aiming at a deflection point. When the a/c get to this angle, you roll the FW and dive/turn out of the way. Most Online pilots will line you up then quickly pull a deflection shot.. You must have your MK1 eyeball on them all the time .
http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0003a.jpg
This pic the yak is past the point of deflection and cannot hit you, so you can have him in this position all day and not worry.
Be aware that if you have internet lag THIS is the same point as the previous pic and you must roll out of the way.
http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/grab0005a.jpg

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif