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View Full Version : Would this 190 defensive maneuver work?



XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:24 AM
Since I am flying the 190 now I have been thinking of a way to use its roll-rate for defensive maneuvers. If you had an enemy on your tail, and if you were at an appropriate altitude, couldn't you just do a quick half-roll then dive straight/or at a very steep angle towards the ground doing another half-roll (or maybe even just a quarter roll) at just the right altitude and pull out just before hitting the ground? Since most planes roll much slower they wouldn't have time to do the half-roll or they would hit the ground. The only way they would be able to follow you is to not go inverted before diving with you, but that would be odd for your enemy not to do so, and you would lose him anyway. The trick would be to find out the right altitude at different speeds which lets the Focke-Wulf pull out safely with a very samll cushion.

Just a thought, please don't flame.

<center>
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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:24 AM
Since I am flying the 190 now I have been thinking of a way to use its roll-rate for defensive maneuvers. If you had an enemy on your tail, and if you were at an appropriate altitude, couldn't you just do a quick half-roll then dive straight/or at a very steep angle towards the ground doing another half-roll (or maybe even just a quarter roll) at just the right altitude and pull out just before hitting the ground? Since most planes roll much slower they wouldn't have time to do the half-roll or they would hit the ground. The only way they would be able to follow you is to not go inverted before diving with you, but that would be odd for your enemy not to do so, and you would lose him anyway. The trick would be to find out the right altitude at different speeds which lets the Focke-Wulf pull out safely with a very samll cushion.

Just a thought, please don't flame.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:37 AM
Interesting ideas. I've wondered myself how best to use the Fw's roll rate to advantage. The problem with the Fw is that even though it can roll very rapidly it's turning and/or pull-up behaviour is very sluggish, so although you can initiate a turn or inverted dive/pull up faster than the a/c on your six, it will regain the position by pulling harder quite quickly afterwards.

In games with no external views, it ought to be possible to roll and pull out of view under the nose of the following a/c's and get into a classic scissors as the following pilot loses sight of you. Not much use against the all-seeing AI, though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:47 AM
Rocketdog, in the test08 beta the 190 could/can pull out of such maneuvers much better, and better or as good as most planes because of the 190's high speed handling (dive builds alot of speed), in FB 1.0 forget it. Again I should have been more clear. Also, if he does pull up harder than you to make up for the delay he will bleed ALOT of speed, again this is considering my experience in 08, not FB 1.0.

Thanks for the reply.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 08/02/0308:49AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:57 AM
Problem is the 190's stall speed. The A4 would stall at 127mph, although this would be much higher if you were pulling high G's. Many 190 pilots didn't do hard manuvers near the ground, as a stall would prove fatal at this height. Like you said, the 190's roll rate is superior and I'd use this and not try to turn with an enemy. Suspect they are very good in scissors and vector roll fighting.

Tully__
08-02-2003, 12:03 PM
At high speed it may be a good manouver, but at low speed most VVS aircraft would easily outturn the 190 and overcome the roll rate deficiency.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:18 PM
As we are talking about such manouvers: Does the engine of a Noobicane or an I16 turn of in the game when they pull negative G? I haven't been flying those planes so i don't know if they really do in the game. If this is modelled I'd not roll but simply press the nose down to get neg G in the dive. or am i wrong?

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 12:46 PM
btw. This manoeuvre is called an "inverted Split-S" ;-)

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Tully__
08-02-2003, 01:01 PM
Gershy wrote:
- As we are talking about such manouvers: Does the
- engine of a Noobicane or an I16 turn of in the game
- when they pull negative G? I haven't been flying
- those planes so i don't know if they really do in
- the game. If this is modelled I'd not roll but
- simply press the nose down to get neg G in the dive.
- or am i wrong?


I-153, I-16 and Hurricane I all suffer from neg G. The later Hurricanes are ok with neg G, as are all the other a/c.

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Salut
Tully

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 01:32 PM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Since I am flying the 190 now I have been thinking
- of a way to use its roll-rate for defensive
- maneuvers. If you had an enemy on your tail, and if
- you were at an appropriate altitude, couldn't you
- just do a quick half-roll then dive straight/or at a
- very steep angle towards the ground doing another
- half-roll (or maybe even just a quarter roll) at
- just the right altitude and pull out just before
- hitting the ground?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
It all depends wich ac you are diving away from and how close the are when u start diving.
I've severly dammaged or killed diving fw190 and bf 109 in
the very unagile p 47. It cant turn and absolutely not in dives but many divers underestemate the spraying effect from the mg's.

U are most vulnerable in begginning of dive(open for deflectionshots) and then in ur initial climb if u havent totally lost the enemy far behind.

check out the "small profile manouver" below
- - - - - - - - - - -



evasive manouvers nr 1.


the small profile manouver!!!
--------------------------

It is good tactic to give the enemy as little as possible
to fire at. Instead of showing your big broad wings show only your profile.

Example:
--------
You are flying a fw190 and diving on an enemy plane from above and behind.
After your pass dont just pull upp in a climb in front of
his guns even if u have some distance between u and speed.
If the foe is an ace he might sacrifice his speed and pull hard to get some deflectionshots at you and bring u down.

So when u enter your climb back to safe hights make a small roll to one side so the side (profile)of your ac is facing the enemy and go abit diagonally instead of straight up.
this will make u a smaller and less predictible target.and if he hits u'r ac its probably not in your vulnerable wings.

this is a very good manouver to use in climbs and dives or any other situation where the wings are exposed.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

similar tactic suggestions can be read in the post:
(NO)O.b's Help to online flying!!!

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zbzsf


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XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 07:50 PM
Let me clarify. Turn-rate has nothing to do with this maneuver, there is no horizontal turning involved, only how hard/fast it can pull-out of the dive. This maneuver would be done at high speeds, since you should never be going slow in a 190 (at least not since flap cheat is gone). I know this is a split-s of sorts but the key/difference is half-rolling at a specific altitude just before pulling out, reversing your direction again. If a plane following you tries to roll and change direction as he is heading towards the ground he will need more time, time he wouldn't have. I was thinking of this move primarily to counter the La-5/7 (which has a very low roll-rate but has speed), I never turn much in my 190 and most other planes I can just run away from.



ob_swe wrote

"U are most vulnerable in begginning of dive(open for
- deflectionshots) and then in ur initial climb if u
- havent totally lost the enemy far behind."


"So when u enter your climb back to safe hights make
- a small roll to one side so the side (profile)of
- your ac is facing the enemy and go abit diagonally
- instead of straight up.
- this will make u a smaller and less predictible
- target."

Good point, and this would be my biggest concern. I would hope that the quickness of the initial roll and dive would throw the La off as his roll-rate is very poor. And I try to never dive/climb straight up or down, I always bank or roll a litlle to throw off the pursuers perception/angle.

Oh, and thanks for the replies, any other input/advice/suggestions is welcomed.

<center>
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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 08/02/0306:53PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 08:03 PM
As long as the elevator responsiveness is not fixed, i don‚¬īt see this work out. What you might gain by utilizing the quick roll rate, you will loose by the stiffness of elevators.

============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 09:19 PM
Oak Groove, I'm 95% sure the elevator response is fixed/improved. Like I said, this maneuver would be impossible in FB 1.0 becuase pulling out of the dive would either be impossible or make you stall too easily.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:13 PM
ok, quick question, I have seen 109's and 190's use this maneuver against me lots: I get on their tail, the roll and make a right turn, then roll back and do a left, and so on and so forth: is this the split-s?

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2003, 10:17 PM
If they are turning back and forth horizontally then they are trying to draw you into a scissors fight. It was more effective with flaps cheat in IL-2 and I try to avoid them in FB. In my 190 I'll take my chances with high speed maneuvers.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.