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michapma
08-09-2003, 12:45 PM
Yesterday I went looking in the local shops for a PCI game port. I knew I could buy a soundcard but wasn't sure if it was the best thing. So I went into Manor on Bahnhofstrasse and strolled leisurely through the electronics/media area, taking in the new things since I hadn't been there in a while. I combed through the computer section but didn't find anything very useful. And I noticed they have a Thrustmaster Cougar, wow, and one of the salesmen took it off the shelf for some reason or other. I decided to ask about the PCI game port and the guy said, well, too bad you just missed our real gamer expert. I said no prob, was just checking because I didn't find anything. Noting that the box was not shrink-wrapped, I asked whether it would be possible to have a look at the Cougar? Why not came the reply, and we carefully unpacked it.

Now I have to have one.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
08-09-2003, 12:45 PM
Yesterday I went looking in the local shops for a PCI game port. I knew I could buy a soundcard but wasn't sure if it was the best thing. So I went into Manor on Bahnhofstrasse and strolled leisurely through the electronics/media area, taking in the new things since I hadn't been there in a while. I combed through the computer section but didn't find anything very useful. And I noticed they have a Thrustmaster Cougar, wow, and one of the salesmen took it off the shelf for some reason or other. I decided to ask about the PCI game port and the guy said, well, too bad you just missed our real gamer expert. I said no prob, was just checking because I didn't find anything. Noting that the box was not shrink-wrapped, I asked whether it would be possible to have a look at the Cougar? Why not came the reply, and we carefully unpacked it.

Now I have to have one.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:51 PM
and...?



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

michapma
08-09-2003, 12:53 PM
It costs 599.- Swiss Francs, it's over 400 USD. That makes over three hundred reasons too many not to buy it. What, did you think I would say I knocked over the store for it? /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:53 PM
Your wife will kill you,that is if you have one/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:56 PM
michapma wrote hurriedly:



"It costs 599.- Swiss Francs, it's over 400 USD. That makes over three hundred reasons too many not to buy it. What, did you think I would say I knocked over the store for it?"



Well, um. Maybe... From the title.. (Confession time or something!) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

michapma
08-09-2003, 12:56 PM
See? I did a very bad thing. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:22 PM
Go wash your mouth with soap and pray three "Hail Mary‚¬īs" before you go to bed, then repeat "I will never ever think of buying a Cougar again" a thousand times before you fall asleep. That should do it!

GreyBeast_P39

RichardI
08-09-2003, 01:31 PM
I L O V E my Cougar!....

He He He He /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif




<Center>http://www.ghosts.com/images/postimages/THUNDERBOLT.jpg <Center>I've got 140 109's cornered over Berlin!

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 01:39 PM
I'd love it if they made one (just one!) left-handed. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif



http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/_uimages/p47atm.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:01 PM
Does it worth so much money?
And why?

Compared to X45 what's best in cougar?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:07 PM
Since we're on the topic, can anyone tell me where to get a throttle that has at least two, preferably four, separate throttle handles? I'm a 111 junkie, and when one of those engines invariably gets shot up, I need to shut it down with out having to use the keyboard short cuts to switch back and forth between the two engines.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:16 PM
http://www.provantage.com/buy-110chpu-ch-shopping.htm

http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 02:49 PM
NOW BUY 5 MORE AND GIVE THEM ALL TO ME, AND LIVE IN SHAME U NAUGHTY GIRL! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.x-plane.org/users/12thiaptbone/viper.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:19 PM
Mike,

Trust my word on this -

1. The Cougar is the only controller that feels like real aircraft hardware.

2. The programmability will allow almost unlimited flexibility. For example in the simplest form you can configure propeller RPM and mixture controls to the two rotating knobs on the throttle (ANT and RNG). Also I have my throttle configured to change from analogue to digital across its range making which in the original IL2 was essential for an accurate representation of WEP in Russian and US aircraft.

3. The Cougar does have problems - the pots are scratch (I have replace my throttle pot) and some users have had problems with the stick gimbals. You must be aware that when you part with your cash that you may have the entire unit in pieces customising it within the first month of operation. Fortunately support is readily available at Frugals World via the forums there. It is amazing the dedication these guys have to the product and it would have been a failure without them.

I'm looking for a second Cougar at the moment and I would not use anything else. Very happy to have my name and endorsement on the side of the box.

- Ham.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 03:21 PM
Welcome to the club, and dam the cost have fun. I enjoy mine.Cost about the same cnd.

HE WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOYS WINS

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:45 PM
Aardvark892 wrote:
- Since we're on the topic, can anyone tell me where
- to get a throttle that has at least two, preferably
- four, separate throttle handles? I'm a 111 junkie,
- and when one of those engines invariably gets shot
- up, I need to shut it down with out having to use
- the keyboard short cuts to switch back and forth
- between the two engines.
-
-
-
- SSgt Tim Schuster
- 8MXS Inspection Section
- Kunsan AB, Korea
-
--Defend the Forums!
--Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
--Take the Fight Online!
-
-

It wouldn't work as the game is right now. The game doesn't support more than one throttle axis, which is kind of silly since it supports multiple controllers.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 07:25 PM
Cougar is a good stick with all the mods done to it. Out of the box it's kind of crappy to me. It all depends on how much you like to fiddle with your stick.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

adlabs6
08-09-2003, 07:55 PM
Cougar's a nice stick. Feels great, looks great, I read that its very, very programmable. I was very impressed by the quality of the switches and buttons. Amazing stuff.

I considered one in CompUSA one day, but it was too much for me to sanely spend. I kept thinking that if I was going to blow money like that, I'd rather get an X45, CH pedals, and Track IR for the same money instead. Afraid I'm just to rational to do something like that. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 07:56 PM
BuzzU wrote:It all
- depends on how much you like to fiddle with your
- stick.

It's hard but I'm not gonna say anything..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:11 PM
Thunderbolt, there aren't any left handed versions of the
F-16, so there wont be any Cougars for the left handed people /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . The Air Force said that it is no problem for them to learn to fly with the "right" hand, so you should be able to handle the Cougar as well...hehe.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:14 PM
I would consider the cougar but they don't have force feedback (a must have feature to fly any "modern" flight sim)

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:21 PM
RBJ wrote:
-I would consider the cougar but they don't have force feedback (a must have feature to fly any "modern" flight sim)

For once I find myself agreeing with you 100% /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Must have FFB.

Clear skies and tailwinds,
Chuck


Message Edited on 08/09/0303:23PM by CPS_Talon

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:37 PM
Does the X-45 have FFB?

Anyone have a link to a cougar?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:41 PM
Ray, whe nyou fly a modern Jet sim, FFB is even more useless cause you don't have any FFB in todays jets due to FlybyWire. he aerodynamical forces don't act on the stick anymore. All you feel are the G's and the F-16 stick moves only 1,5mm. It doesn't even shake.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:43 PM
http://cougar.frugalsworld.com

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 08:46 PM
VF2_John_Banks wrote:
- Ray, whe nyou fly a modern Jet sim, FFB is even more
- useless cause you don't have any FFB in todays jets
- due to FlybyWire. he aerodynamical forces don't act
- on the stick anymore. All you feel are the G's and
- the F-16 stick moves only 1,5mm. It doesn't even
- shake.


A good point. I guess you`d only feel the stick if the whole plane was impacted- like when hit by a missile.



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

adlabs6
08-09-2003, 08:51 PM
-- All you feel are the G's and
-- the F-16 stick moves only 1,5mm. It doesn't even
-- shake.


Does this meant that the stick moves 1.5mm (one and a half) or 1 ,5mm "from one to five". In either case, I'd have to guess that the F16's stick relies upon stick force applied by the pilot rather than reading stick position inside a very narrow 1.5mm window?

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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 09:10 PM
Yes, the F-16 stick is pressure sensitive. It only moves around 1,5mm to give the pilot a feedback so he knows that he is holding the stick in a certain position. The prototype's stick didn't move at all but the pilots didn't like it.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

michapma
08-10-2003, 10:51 PM
Thanks everyone for your input. I knew there are a lot of Cougar owners here.

I'm sure I would tinker with it and program, and I have no qualms with replacing pots or other parts (I was already aware of all this). Ham is right, I couldn't believe the way it felt in my hand, and that was just reaching down into the box. I already have the TrackIR and pedals, but my current stick is a 3-year-old Sidewinder Pro...

I'd also be interested to know what the Cougar has over the X45 besides looking and feeling like real hardware. Might just save me several months of doing dishes and cleaning floors. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

I don't understand what was meant about the 1.5mm movement, but I'm not really at jet-sim fan, at least at the moment, so no worries.

Thanks again,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 11:02 PM
X45 is excellent too, I have never tryed a cougar, but when I switched from my Logitech wingman over to the X45 it was a whole new ballgame. I have had it for a year and a half with no problems. If you ever do have problems with a saitek stick, they have the most understanding support team and I have heard of them often times replacing things for free even after the warrantee is up. Good bunch of guys at saitek, and a good product.

"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:44 AM
I'm picking up a CH throttle quadrant for my ff2 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif should be golden.

But I thought you were building your own quadrant mike! ??

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/LAGIF-small.gif>

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/Rogo_s%20Sig.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hunter82
08-11-2003, 12:50 AM
Waiting on new springs here for my Cougar...have not used it for months right now due to some construction going on at my house.


Ham get ahold of me by PM if you can please.

<center><FONT COLOR="white">[/i]</FONT>
<center><FONT COLOR="white">Hunter82 wrote:
"I did not have technical relations with that question"
[/i]</FONT>
<center> Mudmovers (http://www.mudmovers.com/) </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 12:52 AM
Speaking of PM's Hunter. I'm still waiting./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Buzz25th
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:14 AM
necrobaron wrote:
- BuzzU wrote:It all
-- depends on how much you like to fiddle with your
-- stick.
-
- It's hard but I'm not gonna say anything....

Of course it's hard when you fiddle with it.

nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:17 AM
You have to be careful how you choose your words around here. We have a bunch of perverts.

Buzz25th
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:35 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I would consider the cougar but they don't have
- force feedback (a must have feature to fly any
- "modern" flight sim)


Ray, I'm shocked that an online ace such as yourself would accept the hit to frame rates that is unavoidable in FFB sticks...

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center><FONT color="red">[b]BlitzPig_EL</FONT>[B]<CENTER> http://old.jccc.net/~droberts/p40/images/p40home.gif
</img>.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day that it was vanity:
but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes, to make them possible. "
--T.E. Lawrence

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:09 AM
I have a X45 and Im very happy with itn (at 42 bucks including shipping was a good motivation to buy it ), Made my own set of rudder pedals with an old Thrustmaster ( I dont like the rudder rocker on the x45)and Im thinking to extend the stick 14 inches to use it like the real sticks found on real life planes (I had that mod on my old MS sidewinder 3d pro..R.I.P.) (having a long stick made minimal corrections really accurate in dogfight...long arm = long movement..4 inches from stop to stop...I loved it )


Regarding the fake ace...his mouth is bigger than his knowledge.


ElAurens wrote:
- RayBanJockey wrote:
-- I would consider the cougar but they don't have
-- force feedback (a must have feature to fly any
-- "modern" flight sim)
-
-
- Ray, I'm shocked that an online ace such as yourself
- would accept the hit to frame rates that is
- unavoidable in FFB sticks...
-


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein W√ľrgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 05:30 AM
Framerate hit with Force feedback? Is that a joke? I am the most discerning of aces (the kinds of guy who can tell vsync on or off and 25fps vs 30 fps) and force feedback has no frame hit.

Force feedback, particularly the part how the spring strength scales to the speed, is not only seeing, but feeling. So thats twice the pleasure right there. Of course the bumps when you roll over the ground and the feeling of dropping a load of ordinace are all added bonuses, too (along with many other surprises .. smileyface.rbj).

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 08/11/0312:30AM by RayBanJockey

michapma
08-11-2003, 08:09 AM
Rogodin,

Yes I did and it was fun, even if I haven't been able to test it yet. But it's not exactly a HOTAS.

So those of you who are happy with the X45, is it the feel of the stick, its HOTAS features and programmability? Can any of you Cougars owners contrast it to the Saitek?

I found the Cougar for 300Euros, that's already significantly better.

Thanks again,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 10:20 AM
Hunter, try to remove the rubber boot on the Cougar. That will make it much more easier to move the stick around. The springs aren't too stiff, it's the rubber boot.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

"God Song" by Bad Religion

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 11:05 AM
I use both the X45 and the MSFFB...both sticks are excellent and together along with CH pedals they give the greatest immersion factor for the $$ I can think of. I like the X45 for it's price, it's sturdiness and it's programmability.. Someone mentioned that FB supports only one throttle axis......Hmmmm I was going to try to set up a profile for multi engined planes....say...mode one being left...mode 2 being both and mode 3 being right.... I havent tried it yet so I dont know if it will work. I am wondering if it is done with the Saitek software if it will actually work and function independently. When I get the chance to try it I will post here. The FFB is nice because you can feel thevarying degrees of control in your plane...say at different altitudes or with different damage to the surfaces...not to mention the stall characteristics and back pressure. We all know why a HOTAS setup is so sweet.....the X45 stick makes a great button bay if you want to use another stick as a main stick. Being able to tuck your keyboard under your desk and just fly in any given situation is worth the cost of the extra stick IMO...especially if you can get it on sale or better yet refurbed. Good size.......smooth action...ergonomically viable...except for that closed stick..which is not a problem for me since I dont use the stick on the X45 just it's buttons and the throttle. My hands are kind of big..if something were to happen to my FFB stick and I had to actually use the Saitek stick for flkight control it might be a bit tight but not unbearably so.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ORANGE">vflyer@comcast.net<FONT COLOR>
<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:41 PM
considering the source..he he...somebody who thinks that you need a cray supercomputer to connect 3 monitors to his computer....pffft

the same kind of guy who wants to make believe he knows how to handle a plane...hahahahahahahahaha

your credibility is seriously an issue here ray.

RayBanJockey wrote:
- Framerate hit with Force feedback? Is that a joke?
- I am the most discerning of aces (the kinds of guy
- who can tell vsync on or off and 25fps vs 30 fps)
- and force feedback has no frame hit.
-
- Force feedback, particularly the part how the spring
- strength scales to the speed, is not only seeing,
- but feeling. So thats twice the pleasure right
- there. Of course the bumps when you roll over the
- ground and the feeling of dropping a load of
- ordinace are all added bonuses, too (along with many
- other surprises .. smileyface.rbj).
-

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein W√ľrgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 02:46 PM
I must remember not to make a habit of this but...

RBJ wrote:
--I would consider the cougar but they don't have force feedback (a must have feature to fly any "modern" flight sim)

Totaly agree... so do what i did /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Buy a MS FFB2 then get a Saitek X45 and use its throttle.

I use the FFB for ww2 games as they need it and my X45 for more modern warfare games /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<center>
http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/viper.jpg

</center>

IL2 : http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/il2
CS : http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/cs

michapma
08-11-2003, 02:49 PM
In FB you get little warning before entering a stall/spin, and I imagine it could help. If it were possible I'd try a force feedback stick for a couple of weeks to see how much it really helps. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-sad.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 03:01 PM
michapma wrote:
- In FB you get little warning before entering a
- stall/spin, and I imagine it could help. If it were
- possible I'd try a force feedback stick for a couple
- of weeks to see how much it really helps.

It helps a lot Mike, a bit like the documentation you are doing! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

You can feel the control surfaces lighten and the aircraft shake as you approach a stall.

One way of demonstrating it is to fly with FFB for a while and then turn it off. It wont be off for long! (I have a nasty habit of hitting the windows key when typing chat messages, this causes the FFB to drop out when going from desktop back to game).

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 03:22 PM
Mike,

I have an X36 USB (the predecessor to the X45). I looked at both this and the Cougar, but simply couldn't justify the price difference.

Admittedly, the cougar 'feels' like a real flightstick, but given that I get no feedback from my virtual plane, in this sense I find it only as good as the X36/45.

I've heard and read some nightmare stories about the Cougar, with many people having problems with them straight outta the box. I've also heard that support is exceptional, but I figure that if I'm paying ‚£300 for it, it had better work perfectly from day 1.

The X36 (and I've said this before) has alot of functions you can assign to it at any given time (it has 3 hats, 1 mouse (on the throttle) and 7 buttons (ish) plus a couple of rotaries, all of which can be pinky-shifted to give 19 or so extra functions.... Then there are the 3 modes that are available from the mode switch on the throttle...combined with the shift, I have every key in IL2 mapped to my X36. (It takes a while to set up and get used to, but I couldn't be without it now).

I don't use Saitek's software - I use Dhauzimmer's drivers and hazardscript - you write a little text file with all of IL2s key mappings, the add another section mapping buttons to function. eg:

define landing_gear G
define landing_lights L

set button4 to landing_gear
(and then cool things like)
set mode2 button4 to landing_lights
or set shift_mode1_button4 to landing_lights

It's kinda nice.

Oh, and I bought my X36 when the demo of IL2 came out (whassat? 2 years?). It's worked perfectly ever since, and I try to get an hour a day in on FB (and have done since the IL2 demo came out)

Hope that helps /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

edit: cos I cant count /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
edit: or spell, it seems /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Message Edited on 08/11/03‚ 03:27PM by HamTyler

Message Edited on 08/11/0303:30PM by HamTyler

michapma
08-12-2003, 10:16 AM
B16Enk, thanks. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-happy.gif

HamTyler, thanks very much for taking the time to write all that. I've just got an unexpected bonus at work, and it's more than enough to fulfil some hardware dreams. Looks like I might be able to make a decision sooner than I thought. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
08-12-2003, 02:34 PM
Well, now I did something Even Worse, I went to http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/ and started reading.

Looks like I'll be ordering a Cougar this week.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 02:42 PM
Aardvark892 wrote:
- Since we're on the topic, can anyone tell me where
- to get a throttle that has at least two, preferably
- four, separate throttle handles? I'm a 111 junkie,
- and when one of those engines invariably gets shot
- up, I need to shut it down with out having to use
- the keyboard short cuts to switch back and forth
- between the two engines.
-
-

Check out this link for what you need.

http://www.fscentral.com/gfthqu1.html

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 03:05 PM
The important thing is to do your research as much as possible when choosing the right setup for flying. That means trying out whatever you can and short of that, reading as much as you can from other's experience. You have to be careful because people have a tendency to turn into fanboys of a product to justify their purchase.

For myself, I don't want to go crazy spending money but at the same time want the best I can get within reason, sort of like building yourself a new PC.

The other thing you have to decide is whether you fly this sim for the points or for the pleasure? If it's immersion (readhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gifleasure) then you would be doing yourself a BIG disservice by not using force feedback. No question. Despite what the fanboys say about their sticks, as good as they are with lots of buttons, it is like flying with one eye closed. The X45 or Cougar might be better in many ways but if you want to "feel" the subtleties of flight they just don't cut it.

Need more buttons than you can ever use? Well, you can make up for the lack of buttons on a FFB stick by getting a CH throttle and program a shift button. If you need even more than that you can have it set up for different modes (say a bomber profile).

Rudder pedals are a must. Unfortunately, I won't see a set of these until Christmas as I've only just managed to sneak the expense of the throttle past the wife. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Then you will need TIR. Enough has been said about it so I'll leave that one alone.

Either way, buy for your OWN needs but for me the perfect setup is as follows:

1) MS FFB2 stick
2) CH Pro Throttle USB
3) TrackIR
4) Rudder Pedals (brand to be determined at a later time)

That Cougar looks VERY nice but for the money (or any money) I wouldn't give up one of my senses for well-built buttons. And for that money you can get a throttle AND TrackIR.

Good luck whatever you decide!



<center>http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

michapma
08-12-2003, 03:31 PM
Very reasonable thoughts, Prik. I can't get the experience you describe from reading though. Feeling the force feedback is the only way to really know for myself.

I did try to fly with a FF stick one single time, was an MSFFB2. To me it was just silly rattling, but I didn't really use it very long.

Thanks,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 07:21 PM
Hi Mike,

The rattling isn't what you buy the FFB for although it's kind of cool shooting cannons. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The REAL reason to have FFB is being able to feel more pressure at different speeds or high G turns. You can actually feel where the plane will stall without having to use visual clues. It's subtle and precise enough to feel like the plane has "weight" at lower altitudes and sluggishness up high.

If you get the chance use an MSFFB2 for a few days then return it if you have to. You would be cheating yourself (and your wallet) if you didn't give it a shot.

If you do, you might want to raise the forces to maximum and replace some of the FFB files in FB for turbulence and tone down the rattle of cannons if accuracy is more an issue than immersion for you.

Just so you know, it doesn't matter to me what you decide. It's just that spending that much money may not be worth the trade-off and like I said before you can get a CH throttle Pro USB and an MSFFB2 for less than that fancy cougar.

Then again you may prefer the Cougar so good luck whichever way you go!



<center>http://members.rogers.com/4xtreme/chbanner.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-12-2003, 07:33 PM
IMO, Cougar is worth getting IF you have it modified with the Evenstrain upgrade.

michapma
08-13-2003, 08:38 AM
PriK,

I appreciate your comments. I am in for immersion all the way. Here are my thoughts.



Price: It's not that price is no object. If it weren't, I would simply by a Cougar and a FFB stick. Apparently a lot of people are pleased with the MSFFB2 stick, so it might be a good choice. On the other hand, I am tired of all kinds of Microsoft products. Take my Sidewinder Pro, for instance. Since I bought it three years ago, I can't really get support for it. My guess is that MS will totally focus on their next generation of sticks and stop supporting the FFB2 in a year or two. I know that I'd have support for the Cougar for many years to come. A FFB stick would simply be a purchase, a Cougar I see as an investment. I don't want to just throw in a bunch of money for a fancy stick or to "have the best," but I am willing to invest some money for my hobby when I think it will bring me great joy.</p>

Immersion: This is going to be a tradeoff. I don't know of any HOTAS stick that has FFB. If I consider say the MSFFB2 again, I have what, 8 buttons plus a shift function, and one slider. Not much different from my current SWPro, and although the ergonomics of these few buttons have gotten some praise, I am not impressed with the feel of the buttons or stick. (I did use one once.) In addition, most sticks are plastic, whereas a Cougar is metal and with both parts weighs 8kg. It feels like a real piece of hardware. I learned this when I touched it just briefly the other day-nothing more than reaching down into a box and moving it about showed me a lot. I read a review at Frugal's site and, fanboy or not, if half of what they write is true, the feel of the stick adds to immersion incredibly. It goes well beyond being about HOTAS functionalitly alone.</p>

What you say about feeling the feedback in a turn, even though I already knew about it, gives me pause. This is something that real aircraft have-the yoke is an instrument and not just an input control. You get information from the yoke. Now though I have done a tiny bit of Cessna flying I am no real-life pilot, but I understand the significance of being in tune with the aircraft, especially in virtual combat where you can overcontrol and don't have fancy systems as in modern jets. WWII pilots had to use a lot of strength to do maneuvers, and I wonder just how well the FFB sticks can implement this. I know that the rubber boot and heavy springs on the Cougar do make you work as you pull the stick more and more, but of course this doesn't change with the flight conditions.</p>

I do have a friend I might could borrow the FFB stick from, but my mind is 95% made up.</p>

Thanks again! Any more comments?

Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

michapma
08-26-2003, 03:34 PM
My Cougar arrived yesterday. I am ...... very enthusiastic. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_robot-very-happy.gif

Wow!

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-26-2003, 03:38 PM
Well, just wipe it up before your Mother comes home.

He He

Hot Space/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

michapma
08-26-2003, 03:56 PM
Nah, and my wife actually likes the stick. Especially since it didn't have to come out of budget money. I will resist all urges to make a reply along the lines of, "I hope my mom doesn't catch my wife playing with my stick." There, I resisted.

http://cougar.frugalsworld.com/images/cougar/duo1.jpg


<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>