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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:34 PM
...109, 190, P40, P39, or any other WW2 fighter? Cause I can´t understand how this many people complain about FMs not really knowing how the real thing was...It´s just a game, a sim, and we can´t pretend it to be more realistic than it is. I really enjoy FB as it is, with its pros and cons, and try to have as much fun as possible, just that.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:34 PM
...109, 190, P40, P39, or any other WW2 fighter? Cause I can´t understand how this many people complain about FMs not really knowing how the real thing was...It´s just a game, a sim, and we can´t pretend it to be more realistic than it is. I really enjoy FB as it is, with its pros and cons, and try to have as much fun as possible, just that.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:37 PM
imagine a life with nothing, no girlfriend/wife, no car, no friends, just u and yr PC. That's the only possible explanation for all those whiners...
poor whiners GET A LIFE!!!!!!

SJ

http://www.il2sturmovik.it

Visita il portale italiano di IL-2 Sturmovik!!!

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:37 PM
I haven't flown any of them but there are books on the subject which lay out very specific flight models.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:37 PM
Judging by most posts I think most people in this forum have flown all of those planes at some point.

Nice sentiment cueceleches, of course you are right but lets see what this thread turns into http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


112th Scavenger Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 12:48 PM
I think we should be a little bit more forgiving about all this...I know there are books explaining in every detail how a plane flew, but even though, FB still is a GAME. If this goes on, people will finally ask Oleg to be able to feel the shrapnel from the bombs and cannon bullets on their faces just in order to get more close to reality...
C´mon, if you want to get close to the real thing, go to war...this is just for fun.

<center>PATRIA Y HONOR
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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 01:49 PM
cueceleches, I do agree with you about those just whining, BUT: since FB is not "just" a game, but a flight sim, a/c models have to be the closest possible to RL.
One way to do this is to gather the more information possible (data charts, pilots' repors, etc etc) and put them together in the "magic" (to me) of programming a flight sim, in order to have virtual a/c 99.9% similar to real ones.
So I can't blame the efforts of those guys trying to get their favourite a/c as they are supposed to be, by providing some useful data.


http://www.uploadit.org/files/170903-G55_Firma.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 01:49 PM
I haven't flown any of the myself, but i have flown IN 2 x P40's,P51D, Me108,etc...
One thing I can tell you is that the way the P40 flies AFTER the patch feels VERY similar to what i experianced riding in the back of the planes.

I experianced full aerobatic routines (all low altitude) in both E & M models with 3 different pilots and i would say that the climb rate in the game'feels' about right and the roll rate is just a touch slow, but not far of. The P40 should EASILY out-roll a Mustang, and certainly, the roll in the P51 seemed to be less aggresive.

The pilots i knew said that the P40 could 'roll' with the best of them, even the Spitfire,but it was heavy on the elevators.

To give you an idea of how fast the P40 rolls, lets me tell you this.One ride i had was to a show. We flew out in formation with P51,Spit amd Bearcat. When we got to the airfield, we did a run and break in formation and peeled off for landing. The other 3 landed but we got a request to do a 'little show' for some press photographers. We did all the usual loops and rolls, but on one pass the pilot did a hesitation roll, a series of sharp 90 degree rolls. The roll was so fast and aggresive that each time the plane rolled, my head banged into the side of the canopy!! It was so forcefull that i had to look to see if i had cracked the perspex!!
Luckily, no damage done to the plane (or my head!) but it was quite a shock to be thrown around that violently.
Hopefully, this will give you an idea of how the P40 rolls/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/aeroart/images/hunhunter-texas_sig2a1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 01:57 PM
RBJ_4 wrote:
- I haven't flown any of them but there are books on
- the subject which lay out very specific flight
- models.
-
-

I have read Spartacus 8 times, But I'd never be a gladiator and lead a revolt against the Romans.





<center>
http://blankgiro.freewebspace.com/IL2/soapy112th.jpg
</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:01 PM
If you want realistic flight models, do you also want to have to fiddle with all the controls, guages, settings, etc that real pilots of the day had to do just to get the things started? Go watch the B17 video at Zeno's Warbird Video Drive In and you'll know what I'm talking about. Have you ever complained that an airplane you were flying DIDN'T have a routine mechanical malfunction that caused you to abort your mission and fly home? I think not. Do you have any idea of the FMC (fully mission capable; can it fly or does it still need maintenance) rates of a squadron of BF-109 G10's or LaGG-3's? Do you really want to fail a campaign because your plane, right before the "big mission" crapped out on you or has become the squadron "cann bird"? You want realism, you should want all of this stuff. Give Mr. Maddox and crew some credit, and get over it.



SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:37 PM
- If you want realistic flight models, do you also
- want to have to fiddle with all the controls,
- guages, settings, etc that real pilots of the day
- had to do just to get the things started?

Well ... yes actually

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 02:41 PM
Soapy_112th wrote:
-
-
- I have read Spartacus 8 times, But I'd never be a
- gladiator and lead a revolt against the Romans.
-

Funnily enough thats the one role I can see you fitting into rather well, mad Scots bruiser of a heathen that you are.

112th Scavenger Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:10 PM
True, flying conditon warbirds are so rare that I don't think we'll hear from anyone experienced with them. I've piloted AT-6 Texans, but only been a passenger in a B-17. There are so many details unavailable to virtual pilots that you will never get the modeling right. I would settle for a reasonalbe visual experience. As it is now, you can't even scan the sky with head movements realistically. Every pilot knows you must keep your head on a swivel when entering maneuvers, but it's too disorienting to do so consistantly in a fligh sim.

<center> <img src=http://us.f1f.yahoofs.com/users/1563a400/bc/My+Photos/f-80web+3.jpg?bfuAEZ_AXkmCH7OZ> </center>

<center> "..And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
the high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of Howdy Doody."</center>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:19 PM
Clyde_N_Burns, get a TrackIR... trust me.

Clyde_N_Burns wrote
I would settle for a reasonalbe visual experience. As it is now, you can't even scan the sky with head movements realistically. Every pilot knows you must keep your head on a swivel when entering maneuvers, but it's too disorienting to do so consistantly in a fligh sim.



SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:34 PM
Well, I've got a really powerful imagination! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -



http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612322300

</span></blockquote></font></td></tr>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:37 PM
hunhunter-texas wrote:
- I haven't flown any of the myself, but i have flown
- IN 2 x P40's,P51D, Me108,etc...
- One thing I can tell you is that the way the P40
- flies AFTER the patch feels VERY similar to what i
- experianced riding in the back of the planes.

Finally, someone that may give us at least some real experience...I´m glad to read that your feelings are quite according to the sim...
For those saying that FB is more than a game...well, get real, it is a PC game, whatever you want to call it. Maybe a more complete one, based on more accurate details...but a game. If you want to see a true sim, go i.e. to Toulouse and look at the airbus sim. THAT is a SIM. I´m afraid if this disappoints some of you, but that´s life. I´m sorry

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 03:39 PM
CGA_TEXAS wrote:
-
- Soapy_112th wrote:
--
--
-- I have read Spartacus 8 times, But I'd never be a
-- gladiator and lead a revolt against the Romans.
--
-
- Funnily enough thats the one role I can see you
- fitting into rather well, mad Scots bruiser of a
- heathen that you are.
-
- 112th Scavenger Squadron

Hey Texas /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Yes, destroy my arguement by quoting facts /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 09/22/0303:40PM by Soapy_112th

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:03 PM
Well you sounded quite erudite in the post, we can't have anyone getting the wrong impression +)

btw don't bother trying to be civil or well mannered m8, it really isn't worth it here anymore. The whole place has gone to pot with the latest influx of CS kids.

/sigh, remembers the old days...

112th Scavenger Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:16 PM
we've been told that in the development for IL2 and FB, Oleg consulted with several pilots including a modern Luftwaffe pilot named Preusse who has ACTUALLY flown a remodeled 109...so Oleg's FMs on the 109s should be reasonable...I don't know if Preusse is still on the Maddox team presently though

12th IAP "Guards"

http://12iapil2ops.0catch.com/12th_iap_home_page.htm

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:16 PM
CGA_TEXAS wrote:
- Well you sounded quite erudite in the post, we can't
- have anyone getting the wrong impression +)
-


I think my class ring was made of erudite. Anyway, I'm hoping to meet a bf-109 pilot this weekend at the MIDLAND CONFEDERATE AIR FORCE SHOW. I met a couple of the pilots in the walk around before the show last year. I have no idea what version it is and I'm sure it's been modified; probably response differently with the guns gone too. I wonder if these guys have ever flown Il-2.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:28 PM
One entry found for erudite.


Main Entry: erudite
Pronunciation: 'er-&-"dIt, 'er-y&-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English erudit, from Latin eruditus, from past participle of erudire to instruct, from e- + rudis rude, ignorant
Date: 15th century
: possessing or displaying erudition : LEARNED <an erudite scholar>
- eruditely adverb


Made me go and check it then u bugger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

112th Scavenger Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:37 PM
2 of the entries for "bugger". American usage and that of our "friends across the pond".


-USA----------------
Main Entry: 1bugger
Pronunciation: 'b&-g&r, 'bu-g&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English bougre heretic, from Middle French, from Medieval Latin Bulgarus, literally, Bulgarian; from the association of Bulgaria with the Bogomils, who were accused of sodomy
Date: 1555
1 : SODOMITE
2 a : a worthless person : RASCAL b : FELLOW, CHAP
3 : a small or annoying thing <put down my keys and now I can't find the buggers>

-UK-----------------
Main Entry: 2bugger
Pronunciation: 'b&-g&r
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1598
1 usually vulgar : to commit sodomy with
2 : DAMN

I hope you meant the first. 8^) Going to the big show, bud? You get to see them blow stuff up. And my appologies to anyone from Bulgaria. Jim

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:43 PM
Let me clarify: I meant definition 2 from the first entry! Please, no phone calls! Jim

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:45 PM
Ok, this is becoming too childish...

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:46 PM
I agree cueceleches.... Besides that you can read all the data you want but none of that was exact. Look at the performance specs on cars.....many cars dont perform exactly to factory specs as farasacceleration mileage etc. To me the bottom line is that this is still the best WW2 sim out so why beefso much? We get more support from the sim's developer than MS, Microprose, or any other sim developer has given to my knowlege. For many of the people here the only real reference they have is another sim although there are some guys who come to the table with good info and cogent arguments. We also have to consider that none of us know the coding process for this sim. None of us can second guess 1C since we have no clue as to what went into it but I do believe that they did thier best to make it as accyrate as possible and to me it is great. My only problem is with the online lag issues and I do think the QMB could use a little more developement.

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:46 PM
I trhink he make a good point...
I haven't flown any WWII fighters, but have driven many sports cars. Documented specifications and performance stats do not completely describe real life perfomance characteristics.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 04:49 PM
~S!

Aaah, the reason many left CFS 2 and don't like "3".

Many of us have contacts in the warbird community, and know pilots current in some of these types...... and there is flight test data available in Performance curves on these aircraft.

Granted the game is fun, but why not continue to improve it as long as the designers are willing to take hard info and tweak the FM's alittle.

I'm speaking for myself, not trying to convince you to change your mind.

As a pilot in RL and 'can tell you that a sim on a PC platform will never fly like a high performance airplane.
However, it is amazing, the quality of the representation we have here given the limits of the platfrom. ( Imagine what the art will provide us 5 years........)

Some FM's are way off in basic areas. Improvement is a process, I'm with the many who'd like to see that continued.

Regards:



BPO5_Jinx
C.O. Replacement Air Group
Birds of Prey. 16th GvIAP
http://www.birdsofprey16thgviap.com
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/RS-15/N50GL.html

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:07 PM
Big_Jim2000 wrote:
- Let me clarify: I meant definition 2 from the first
- entry! Please, no phone calls! Jim
-
-


Oh, in that case no sorry I won't be going to the show. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Actually work has me booked out for those so dates so unfortunately I will looking for scant coverage on UK tv.

And I think you are letting things get to you a bit too much cueceleches, your initial post said everything really, people do take the games dynamics too seriously. If people just played it and instead of getting upset when they got shot down just accepted it and moved on then 90% of the arguements that erupt on this 'forum' wouldn't occur. Try to game with more mature players, ignore most posts here and I'm sure your enjoyment will increase.

112th Scavenger Squadron

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:13 PM
That´s exactly what I mean: of course I like the models to "give the feeling" of flying as close to reality as possible, but I´m conscious that it is just a piece of software (possibly the best I´ve ever seen) with its own and well known limitations. That´s why I´ve never, never posted any complaints about FB, and I will never do. Just because I feel this is the best I can get in the shops, and also because I know that a great guy with agreat team which is Oleg´s is always taking care of trying to improve the software for us, for us to enjoy and have fun.
So, I play FB, and everytime I feel amazed of the quality of the game, and trust me, I do enjoy the game very, very very much, despite whatever version I play.

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 05:29 PM
If I can extend the sport car analogy a bit more...
I play Gran Tourismo 3 and I use a car in the game I actually own and drive.

The biggest diiference is G-forces and the lack of them in a computer game. Nothing give more feedback than Gs in cornering, braking etc. Without Gs, you can't really know what going on in a car, or plane.

It's pointless to compare, one is a car, the other is a simualtion and I'm sure the same is true with FB.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:48 PM
perioikos wrote:
-- If you want realistic flight models, do you also
-- want to have to fiddle with all the controls,
-- guages, settings, etc that real pilots of the day
-- had to do just to get the things started?
-
- Well ... yes actually
-
-

Hehe.. ya me too. Just hitting "I" isn't enough. And I wish I could find a throttle quadrant for USB that had four separate throttles, instead of just one.


SSgt Tim Schuster
8MXS Inspection Section
Kunsan AB, Korea

-Defend the Forums!
-Accept Follow-on Patches and stuff!
-Take the Fight Online!

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:55 PM
hunhunter-texas wrote:


The roll was so fast and aggresive that each time
the plane rolled, my head banged into the side of
canopy!! It was so forcefull that i had to look
to see if i had cracked the perspex!!
Luckily, no damage done to the plane (or my head!)
but it was quite a shock to be thrown around that
violently.

WOW,,,, Lucky your head is so empty, bet is sounded like someone banging a Kettle Drum in the back /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif hehehehehehehehehehehe


In house joke folks, we mean no harm to each other, just dont let Hunter loose with a sharp instrument and keep him sedated. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 06:56 PM
I cannot speak for anybody else, but when I contest an aircrafts performance from a flight sim it is because there is data on the real life plane and the plane from the flight sim either exceeds or doesnt achieve this data by a large margine.

If there are many books that say X plane did 350 mph at sea level and 450 mph at 30,000 ft, then I expect that the plane in the flight sim should match this data. I feel the same way about rates of roll, climb, diving characteristics, turn, stall habbits etc.

you do not have to have first hand knowledge of the aircraft in question to know whether or not the modeled aircraft has flight model data accurate to the real life aircraft. I have never driven John Force's dragster, but I know that it can run a 1/4 mile in under 4 seconds.

If it bothers you that people debate whether or not sim a/c are modeled correctly or not then I would suggest not reading what people post rather than have everybody else conform to how you think they should behave.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:10 PM
I've flown in two P51's, two AT-6's, B-25, B-24, B-17 and I couldn't tell you squat about how it compares.

I just wanna fly.

And, like I said in another thread, if the FM's are the same for everyone, then we're all on equal footing. Shut up, fly smart and enjoy yourself.




http://home.earthlink.net/~aclzkim1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/il2sig2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:19 PM
BUMP!

stop crying start flying. ptfffffffffffffff /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VICTOR MAY HAVE BEEN A WEIRDO,BUT HE WAS A DAMN GOOD FIGHTERPILOT.
<ceter>http://www.boners.com/content/788904.1.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:43 PM
I don't like to say it but, yes, I have

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
<center>On your six 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.<center>
<center>Boosher-ProudBirds-VFW<center>
http://proudbirdswing.tripod.com/proudbirds.htm

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XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:46 PM
For your information, I have flown all those planes!!!
I have flown every plane that ever existed. Heck, when I was a kid I even put wings on my go-cart, and to my astonishment, it actually took off and flew!! But the Tecumseh engine overheated at altitude, since the developer under-modelled the engine. Later, I switched it for a Briggs and Stratton engine, thus correcting the problem. I later sold it to a lawyer who needed a cheap commuter plane. I have even flown the legedary Suzuki GSRX-1100. So there!!!!!



"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 07:59 PM
mortoma wrote:
- For your information, I have flown all those
- planes!!!
- I have flown every plane that ever existed. Heck,
- when I was a kid I even put wings on my go-cart,

Bet you were that little Brat i saw fly past the moon on a pushbike with some weird Alien type dude in on the front.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 08:05 PM
Boosher-PBNA wrote:
- I don't like to say it but, yes, I have

This wouldn't be the remotely controlled P-47 thing would it? Because, frankly, I don't buy it.

XyZspineZyX
09-22-2003, 08:20 PM
"As real as it gets"

1944 North American P51 Mustang Price : US$ 1,550,000.00

Frame Time 80 Hrs.

http://www.nextaircraft.com/cgw/viw1706/

=========================================
IL2 Sturmovik Forgotten Battles Price : CDN$ 19.95

...and worth every penny. I've flown real planes ... mostly floatplanes in British Columbia. Have enjoyed many hours in FB but would probably enjoy the shortest solo flight in history with that Mustang.

XyZspineZyX
09-23-2003, 11:18 AM
FB is the only way we, people who will maybe never have the chance to fly a WW2 aircraft for real, to get at least a little, very little, feeling of what it might have been...I´m glad this kind of sims still exist, and I pray they will continue to exist for a long time. It seems after all that our community is not as big as we think, and flight sims not as popular as we would like in the gaming software world.

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