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View Full Version : Shooting friendlies in the fog of war - scenarios to avoid?



rnzoli
10-30-2005, 02:41 AM
This question goes to those flying without any icons: what scenarios are really dangerous for shooting a friendly?

Although I always positively identify enemy aircraft before pulling the trigger, recently I shot a friendly 2 times, because of the 'fog of war'.

One was an IL2 I actually covered. A Bf109 went on his tail, started to shoot, I shot at the Bf, the IL2 rear gunner shot at the Bf. However, at some point the silhouettes merged, and then a "larger" aircraft went down in smoke. I though that must have been IL2 and continued shooting at the other aircraft with 2 bursts. But quickly I realized that the Bf109 went down earlier, and it looked larger, becase it was closer to me at that time. I stopped shooting at the aircraft in front of me, just when the rear gunner opened up fire on me. After 2 close-range hits, I instinctly launched rockets and sharply turned out. The rockets hit and I got the dreaded 'friendly aircraft destroyed' message. What I learnt from this scenario: never allow the silhouettes to merge, because without the sense of visual depth, it will be difficult to sort out who's who.

Another incident was when an enemy aircraft was in the area, another friendly reported seeing him 'at the balloons', I sighted an aircraft that was climing towards the balloons (typical move before shooting at them). Went behind, and AAA protecting the balloons also opened up, saw tracers going in the same direction as the aircraft climbing in front of me. Then I opened fire too, and only stopped, when first hit, the airplane turned sharply, and saw it was a firendly. I also reported over radio that the aircraft at the ballons is a friendly, then he replied that the enemy is very high up at the balloons. The friendly was trying to zoom climb behind him, that was why AAA tracers were going around him as well. Due to the big height difference, the chased enemy aircraft was out of my view at that time. What I learned from this: don't trust small caliber AAA fire too much (large caliber is better, because shells explode at certain height)

After these 2 incidents, I started to wonder, how many other tricky scenarios may lead me to believe that you positively identified an enemy, but you are wrong.

Do you have such stories from your combat experience? I wish rather to learn from them, not from shooting more friendlies http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

(Please cut the cr^p and avoid generalities like turn on icons, improve your SA, use radio, check markings & plane types etc. This is already done, and it is working 99%, my problem is with the remaining 1% that seems almost unavoidable - just like the thick fog of war in real life.)

Enforcer572005
10-30-2005, 04:40 AM
it usually happens to me when i forget what side im on......i know thats stupid, but if i go from an axis cmpn to an allied one, well, sometimes im still in a particular mode and have actually forgotten, depending on the type of misn.

yeah, ive fired on freindlies a bunch of times in all that furball stuff, gets a bit confusing at times. ive also done it at range thinking that i was trying to distract one from shooting a wingy.

rnzoli
11-01-2005, 04:28 PM
LOL, there is one more way...

Tracers in the distance, 2 fighters circle each other, suddenly one crashes, friendly name appears in 'crashed' message. So the other must the enemy for sure, I go after him, close up and shoot from 6, wing goes away.... then "Friendly aircraft destroyed" message appears.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I tell the TK victim that I am sorry, he says no problem, I ask again: "but weren't you fighting with someone shortly before?"

The answer: "yes, a friendly attacked me by mistake, but he crashed".

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Murpy's law definitely applies to this game as well.

Waldo.Pepper
11-01-2005, 04:52 PM
I have made missions for people, friends that 'set them up' to kill their own side, if they are not EXTREMELY careful in IDing what they are shooting at. The mission is also a lesson too that way!

MLudner
11-01-2005, 05:56 PM
I was once chasing a LaGG-3 that was chasing a Stuka we were escorting in the predawn hours. As the LaGG closed on the Stuka, and conversely, I closed on the Lagg, their silhouettes merged. I said a quick prayer, crossed myself, then fired.
So did the LaGG, at the same time.
The next thing I see is fireball lighting up the morning sky, then a Stuka climbs upward in flames. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif For a moment I felt a sinking sensation, knowing i had just creamed the Stuka!.
Then I watch the flaming LaGG-3 roll over and head straight for Mother Russia below.
PHEW!
I then realized that the LaGG had shot-up the Stuka, not I. The Stuka had been instantaneously avenged, though...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
Not quite what you were looking for, I know, but it's the closest I've come. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

EmbarkChief
11-01-2005, 09:12 PM
On the other side of things I was the victim of friendly fire not too long ago on a "full real" server. IIRC I was in a 109G14 wearing a custom skin with the crosses painted on. Well quite a bit into this mission I come across 2 Lagg's and shoot them down, just after the 2nd aircraft goes down two 190's enter the area to inspect. No doubt the tracer fire drew them in, I recognize them easily as friendly and go about my merry way. While scanning the skies for enemies it becomes apparent the 190's are trying to get themselves in a shootng solution. So I figure I'll bend them around a bit so they can get a good close view of my bird and ID me. We fence for about a min and I disengage and fly off straight and level. Sure enough about a min later tracers are going by the windscreen and wouldn't you know? The first round snaps the elevator cable. I start flashing lights and finally get on the chat before they cease firing. Their excuse? No markings=enemy. Well seems my skin had still not come through even though we were about 15min into the mission. Oh well, lucky for them I lost the elevators or it would have been an expensive lesson in aircraft recognition.

cawimmer430
11-06-2005, 10:29 AM
I've shot down friendlies on more than one occassion. The first time was when I was flying the Hungarian BF-109G mission against the Mustangs. I had bagged my 2nd Mustang and was heading into cloud cover when straight ahead, a dark silhouette came out of the clouds straight at me. Because of this maneuver, I thought it was a Mustang going for me and fired at the unkown plane. My bullets severed the planes tail and as I passed the downward spinning and burning wreck, I realized it was a Hungarian BF-109G...one of my buddies! At least he managed to bail out: but I lost points because of this misunderstanding. I made up for it by shooting down another Mustang and lightly damaging another before my ammo ran out. Back at the base, I was probably the laughing stock and would be seriously penalized! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Another time, I was flying the 1940 version Spitfire. I was chasing a BF-109F at around 2500 ft when all of a sudden my plane begins shaking and I got the messages "fuel tank leak and rudder controls damaged". I switched to exterior view and saw that my Spitfire had football sized holes in both wings which affected my stability. Here's the killer: I was shot at by own wingman! I told the guy to cover me and he goes for the same target as me and shoots at the BF-109F despite me being infront of him! What a ******! I was royally pissed. My plane was in no shape to dogfight so I slowed down reducing power and engaging landing flaps and let my wingman pass me. After that, I throttled up and wasted all my ammo on shooting down this ****** of a wingman. What a beautiful sight it was seeing his plane blow up in middair. At one point, I was riding a few meters behind him hammering him with my guns. The Germans must have been wondering what the hell was going on too! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Normally I wouldn't do this but this guy had just pissed me off! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

On a side note, this happens too often. You're chasing a bad guy and one of your squad mates decides to pick your target with you infront of his sights. What the hell is up with that? I've had to retire from several dogfights due to ******ED WINGMEN. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

ColoradoBBQ
11-06-2005, 01:00 PM
I've spent too many times shooting head on at friendly La's and Fw-190 during the winter time since they both look very similar from the front with white camo.

MB_Avro_UK
11-06-2005, 01:31 PM
Good post.

I have done the same and I wonder how many times this happened in WW2??

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Zyzbot
11-06-2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Good post.

I have done the same and I wonder how many times this happened in WW2??

Best Regards,
MB_Avro


It was quite common on all sides in WWII.

A few examples:

1. On 15 January 1945, Hofmann assumed command of 5./JG 26 but retained control of 8./JG 26. However, on 15 February, 8./JG 26 was disbanded and he became the permanent leader of 5./JG 26. Hofmann led a formation of eight Fw 190s from Drope on a Jabojagd mission in the Wesel-Bocholt area on 26 March 1945. The formation encountered USAAF B-26s near Münster and he led a bounce of the RAF Tempest fighter escort shooting down one for his 44th victory. However, during the ensuing confusion Hofmann went missing. It was later determined he had been shot down by his wingman and crashed between Hasselünne and Flechum. He had managed to bale out but was too low for his parachute to deploy."

2. €œThe Typhoon's first large-scale combat over Dieppe further proved that its rearward vision was wholly inadequate as they had been bounced from above and behind three times in the day's flights for the loss of two aircraft, one of which fell to a Spitfire€¦.As a side note Typhoon partisans might have been forgiven thinking that the Spitfire lobby was taking things a bit far when a number of Typhoons were shot down by Spitfire pilots who confused it with marauding FW-190 fighter-bombers before they learned to differentiate between the radial-engined German fighter and the inline-engined Typhoon with its massive chin radiator.€

3. €œDuring the period 1939 to 1942, twenty Blenheim fighter-bombers were shot down through mis-identification by RAF pilots and anti-aircraft fire (Seven were shot down by Hurricanes). This resulted in the deaths of thirty-two aircrew with seven others injured. Nineteen other aircraft were damaged by being fired upon by mistake.€

4. €œAs a Hurricane pilot I had a certain fear and respect for the Me 109. For one thing, it could dive faster. If an Me 109 pilot saw you, it would drop down taking a shot at you, go past, pull the stick back and start climbing very fast. You just couldn't keep up with him. The only way to overcome this was to roll over inverted and dive after him in positive g. When the 109 pulled up to level out or climb, we'd aileron-turn to right way up and see his plan view and get in a perfect shot.

The Hurricane€s visibility was pretty good, except above and below to the rear. The mirror was useful, but not as effective as it might have been. I replaced mine with a curved rear view mirror, and actually felt it gave me a touch extra speed besides giving a better view.
I once looked in my mirror and saw the biggest, fattest Me 109 ever, or so it seemed. All at once his front lit up as he fired at me. The 109 went over the top, to be followed by my No.2, who was firing at me! When we got down I put him on gun practice for two days and told him "Don't shoot at your friends.....and if you shoot at anything, make sure you hit it!"

polak5
11-06-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Zyzbot:
"Don't shoot at your friends.....and if you shoot at anything, make sure you hit it!"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif thats classic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif