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View Full Version : Question about using rudder pedals, and sliders for trim



Objektskaya
05-22-2008, 05:18 PM
When you use rudder pedals with Il-2, can you activate the wheel brakes independently? This is one thing the ground handling is missing with the keyboard. I can't press different keys to apply the left and right main gear brakes separately, which is important for controlling many prop aircraft on the ground.

Of course, doing this would require rudder pedals with the ability to tilt, or a button at the toe, or some other way of activating the brakes on each side independently. I'm guessing not all rudder pedal sets do this, but surely there are some that do? Even as simple and non-military an aircraft as a Cessna 172 has independent wheel brakes, and I don't think the MS Flight Simulator fans would settle for anything less.

When you use an analog slider or wheel to control trim, do you get finer increments than us poor sods stuck with keyboard or mouse wheel? It seems especially pronounced when flying the jets; due to the high airspeeds, the minimum increment of trim is often enough to develop a significant climb or dive rate. You don't get the feel and fineness of control that you would have had with an actual trim wheel, and you often need additional control input to make up for the trim not being precisely what you need. At least that's my experience using mouse wheel (elevator) and keyboard (everything else) for trim.

R_Target
05-22-2008, 05:44 PM
I don't think that IL2 has true differential braking, but I never seem to have a problem taxiing right with full right rudder and right brake, and vice-versa with left.

Small increments in trim are certainly possible with a rotary control, and (IMO) a little tougher with sliders. The difficult part is setting the sensitivity to where it suits you. Trial and error worked for me; solutions might come quicker to less dim-witted types. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I use IL2 JoyControl (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=1021) to tweak my controller sensitivities after assigning them in-game. Fooltrottel's IL2 Sticks (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=332) works in much the same way.

Lurch1962
05-22-2008, 07:18 PM
I'm sure I've seen where others have added a line in the controllers section of conf.ini to add another wheel brake control. I'm sure someone will chime in with this "tweak" shortly.

I know that it takes a *lot* of key presses to add any significant amount of trim. Potentiometer-based rotaries/sliders do give continuously varying output, but it's generally "quantized" to 8-bit (256 step) precision within most controllers, as far as I know.

The issue with overly sensitive trim control with rotaries has more to do with the small throw. To get around this you could use a multi-turn potentiometer, but this might require making a separate housing for it. That, or try to make the smallest possible rotational movement.

I have elevator trim mapped to my CH Fighterstick's "throttle" wheel. I have no trouble making suitably small adjustments, and that's with the sensitivity set to all 100's across the board.

steiner562
05-22-2008, 07:24 PM
I found sliders and dials not good enough,just too sensitve,I use the hatswitch of my stick for most of my trim controls now but I use trackir of course.

mmitch10
05-23-2008, 01:22 AM
I found dials far too sensitive for trim, until I replaced my dials with 10-turn potentiometers. This makes trimming with a dial much more accurate.

Sirrith
05-23-2008, 02:14 AM
I think I remember reading somewhere not too long ago that braking while applying full rudder to one side would only apply the brake to one wheel which explains the tight turns you can make by doing that?

Tully__
05-23-2008, 06:13 AM
This game DOES model differential braking, but it DOESN'T model it with the toe brake controls used by most modern aircraft. Differential braking is modeled using the same controls that WW2 British and Russian aircraft used. They had a single actuator (usually hand operated on the joystick, you can see it move in the game in many of the Russian aircraft) to control total braking force and a valving system linked to the rudder pedals to control which of the main wheels it was applied to. Consequently, in the game if you apply full right rudder with brakes, only the right main wheel will be braked. This works for all aircraft in the game, even those that had toe brakes in real life.

Bearcat99
05-23-2008, 06:18 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
This game DOES model differential braking, but it DOESN'T model it with the toe brake controls used by most modern aircraft. Differential braking is modeled using the same controls that WW2 British and Russian aircraft used. They had a single actuator (usually hand operated on the joystick, you can see it move in the game in many of the Russian aircraft) to control total braking force and a valving system linked to the rudder pedals to control which of the main wheels it was applied to. Consequently, in the game if you apply full right rudder with brakes, only the right main wheel will be braked. This works for all aircraft in the game, even those that had toe brakes in real life.

I never knew that.. I mean I knew about the brakes, how thwey worked in the sim.. but I didnt know the full story...

Padser
05-23-2008, 06:51 AM
~S~

Some of this depends upon the pedals you are using. It is possible, for example, to program your CH Rudder Pedals to 'behave' like the toe brakes you find in (most) modern aircraft.

It does this by allowing both pedals to operate the same axis which can then be applied to the brakes axis in-game, thus allowing you to press either to apply brakes and thus giving you the illusion of differential toe-braking provided that you combine your brake input with appropriate rudder input. It sounds complicated but is very intuitive and actually not dissimilar to taxying a real aircraft.

The CH script for this is relatively simple, though I do not have it to hand here. Check out the forums at http://www.ch-hangar.com/ those guys are (a) very helpful and (b) really know what they're talking about when it comes to CH kit and associated programming and what-not.

Don't know if it's possible with Saitek pedals - though if I remember rightly their configuration software is pretty good, too, so I am guessing it should be.

Cheers,

Pads

AA_Double_Tap
05-23-2008, 09:12 PM
Here is an old post of mine form Frugals:

When you assign your toebrakes in IL-2 <CONTROLS> it only lets you use one pedal axis for brakes. This works OK but has always annoyed me. I have found a way around it.

You need to go to USERS>0>Settings.ini and open it up in a text browser like Notepad.

Scroll down to [HotKey move] and look to see how your brakes are assigned.
Mine was:
AXE_RY JoystickDevice0=-brakes

Highlight this line with your mouse and copy it. Close the file.

Now, start Il-2 and go to <CONTROLS> and assign the brakes to the other pedal. <APPLY> and close down IL-2.

Reopen the .ini file and look at the brake line. Mine read:

AXE_V JoystickDevice0=-brakes

So now just paste under this line what you copied from the previous one and save the file.

The section should now look something like this:
[HotKey move]
JoystickDevice0 AXE_Y=elevator
JoystickDevice0 AXE_X=aileron
AXE_RY JoystickDevice0=-brakes
AXE_V JoystickDevice0=-brakes
AXE_RZ JoystickDevice0=rudder
AXE_U JoystickDevice0=trimelevator

The rudder ststements may not be exactly like mine, depending on your make of rudder, but it should not matter.

Thats it.
BTW, if you are Simped users, I found IL-2 ruddering much easier when I removed one of the two pivot springs. It seems to give finer control.

~E!~
D_T

UgoRipley
05-24-2008, 01:41 AM
I have Simped rudders with toe brakes.

I have mapped each of the toe brakes to the "b" key, for in-game braking.

To apply diff braking I just apply rudder to one side and press the corresponding toe brake...any toe brake will do, in fact, but pressing the corresponding one is more realistic.

Klemm.co
05-24-2008, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by UgoRipley:
I have Simped rudders with toe brakes.

I have mapped each of the toe brakes to the "b" key, for in-game braking.

To apply diff braking I just apply rudder to one side and press the corresponding toe brake...any toe brake will do, in fact, but pressing the corresponding one is more realistic.
Then you are limiting yourself to full brakes or no brakes only. It's actually possible to map the brake axis to both toe brakes.
Go to the Users folder in the Il-2 1946 root directory, then to the folder for the user you are using (for example "doe") and then open the settings.ini
Now you must have assigned the brakes to one toe brake of you rudder pedals first, or this won't work.
Find the line "AXE_X JoystickDevice1=brakes", copy that and paste it directly under it. Then change the X to a Y (or in reverse, depending on which toe brake you assigned to brakes), save and exit the file.
Now the thing is that the game will delete the added line everytime you make changes in the "Controls" section of the game. To prevent this, make the file read-only. The draw-back will of course be that everytime you DO make changes on the in-game controls, when you restart the game they will be lost.
So find a config you like, do this tweak and then make it read-only. I hope i could be of help. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

UgoRipley
05-24-2008, 01:54 PM
Thanks for your heads-up, but I might have done that already.

Now I don't remember how I set Simped up, nor can I check it out (I'm out of country ATM), but I do have differential braking, meaning that the more I press, the more brake "force" is applied...

I have a "pressure sensitive" brake !

Finnish_Mik
05-25-2008, 12:43 PM
Is soldering a 10-turn pot any different to a normal one? Three contacts?

Is there anything to look out for buying these pots? What kind of resistance should I look for?

Cheers

FM

bolox00
05-26-2008, 06:50 AM
10 turn pots have 3 terminals just like a 'normal' pot so wiring is identical. 100k ohm is a safe value to use for resistance, although depending on the controller you are using 10k-50k ohm will often work. the important factor to look for is a LINEAR response, not logarithmic as used in audio applications.
most multi turn pots i've seen are linear but watch out. this is sometimes referred to as 'taper' in the literature.

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-26-2008, 07:08 AM
I use the in-game differential braking system to good effect with my pedals. It feels a bit awkward if you've ever flown an aircraft with separate right/left differential application, but it still works well.

As far as trim sliders go, I have my aileron and rudder trim on a hat switch and my elevator trim on a rotary. It's VERY sensitive, but it's a pinky rotary and I never use it in a fight. A simple (and slight) nudge with my pinky in the appropriate direction is fast, simple and effective to apply the constant trim adjustments necessary when doing everything but cruising. I trim everything with a slight nose-up default while right before going into a fight. The only exception is a P-51 which I trim nose-down quite a bit at high speed. Once I drop into a fight, I stay away from it though regardless of what I'm flying.



TB

Lurch1962
05-26-2008, 05:44 PM
The 3 contact tabs on potentiometers allow you to wire it so that the resistance either increases or decreases when the shaft/knob is rotated in a given direction. The center tab must have a wire connected, and either of the remaining two will be wired. (If you connect your two wires to the two outermost points, you'll have a non-variable resistor!)

I suspect that in most cases it doesn't matter if resistance increases or decreases as the shaft turns in one direction; the calibration will take this into account. But to make sure, you could temporarily connect the wires until all is well.