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SD_Fugazi
11-08-2005, 10:15 AM
I tried the Yak-9UT recently, both offline and online but I have noticed the following discrepencies with what I would have expected.
1) NS-37 is supposed to have a rate of fire of 250 rounds per minute... in the game it seems that we have less than half of that, it is taking 15 seconds to use the 30 shells that are available... By comparaison, the Yak-9K which is using a NS-45 (that is in fact exactly the same as the NS-37, except for the barrel size if I am not mistaken), seems to have the proper rate of fire... Any idea why the -45 seems to be modelized according to the reality while the -37 is not?
2) I have read, at several occasion that the correct ammo load for the NS-37 was 32 rounds not 30 as we seems to have in the simulation... and it was 28 for the NS-45... but let's be honest I never took the time to count the number of shell for the -45 (one can however easily count the number of shells for a -37 at that rof).
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Vipez-
11-08-2005, 10:34 AM
hmm I tried quickly the Yak9UT .. it fires its 37mm ammunition in 7 seconds. that means about 4.28 rounds / second..

Theoretical firerate (250 rnd / min, assuming this is correct), is about 4,17 rounds per second. So it seems it's the other way around, the weapon in the game is firing slightly at higher rate of fire, than in real life.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif


In short: it's pretty much as it is supposed to be..Did you use game's seconds to count the time it took to fire those rounds ?

SD_Fugazi
11-08-2005, 10:41 AM
Then I really have a problem with the game somewhere... My 9UT shot in 15s, my 9K in 7s, my 9T in 7s.
I am using an external clock btw.
Installation is FB+AEP+PF merged... 2 different machine...

By using an external clock (the one on my j/s...) I have 15 seconds.
By using the game clock (recording the track) I have 15 seconds.
Also tried to set the mouse button as the fire button for the gun, and got 15 seconds again.


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Is there anyone else that would be willing to make that 10-20 seconds test please? Thank you.</span>

Kocur_
11-08-2005, 12:24 PM
Yak-9T - NS-37: 0,735kg, 900m/s, 280rpm, 32rds (I used it in ~7s)
Yak-9UT - N-37: 0,735kg, 690m/s, 400rpm, 30rds(I used it in ~15s).
Yak-9K - NS-45: 1,065kg, 850m/s, 280rpm, 29rds (I used it in ~7s).

So I think you discovered a bug in Yak-9UT.

SD_Fugazi
11-08-2005, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Yak-9UT - N-37: 0,735kg, 690m/s, 400rpm, 30rds(I used it in ~15s).


Pfeww I thought I was the only one with a 15 seconds needed to deplete my ammos, at a rof of around 120.
You are right to point out that the -9T and -9UT have a different gun, I made an erronous assumption that they had the same gun in the game.
Maybe the gun is a model that I am not aware of, I have seen other simulations putting the N-37 (instead of the NS-37) for a Yak-9UT 45, but then if we were using the N-37 in the -9UT in the game, we should see the recoil effect reduced by 85% compared to the one of the NS-37... which is not the case, the -9UT gun in the game produce at least as much recoil as the NS-37 or even the NS-45.

p1ngu666
11-08-2005, 01:13 PM
i find it impossible to hit with the 9ut 37mm D:

9t, i can use that ok..

Professor_06
11-08-2005, 01:17 PM
historical records indicate that the recoil on the T/UT were enormous. Almost plane stopping. By the third shot the sights were thrown so far off that they were not usable. The game recoil seems modest by those standards.

p1ngu666
11-08-2005, 01:25 PM
nah the recoil is big comapaired with others, and can chuck u off, specialy with the k

Vipez-
11-08-2005, 02:02 PM
Whops typo, I tried the Yak9T only.. indeed something fishy about Yak 9UT.. though I dont really find it hard to shoot, I have had extremely successfull sorties with Yak9UT .. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Real Yak9T pilots were trained to fire burst of 2-3 rounds, in certain cases after firing those 2-3 rounds the speed loss was sometimes said to be as high as 200-300 kmh.. imho that is kinda big recoil http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I guess it also depends how fast one is flying..

HelSqnProtos
11-08-2005, 02:11 PM
S~! Bump for this bug.

SD_Fugazi
11-08-2005, 02:17 PM
In 1942 the NS-37 appeared; this gun could penetrate 40 mm of armour at an angle of up to 40 degrees. The Yak-9T with the NS-37 was quite successful, and 2748 of these fighters were built. Because of the recoil of the gun it was advised to fire thee-round bursts, but a single hit could destroy an aircraft. The Yak-9K carried the large NS-45, an even more powerful weapon which required a large muzzle brake to keep the recoil within acceptable limits. Few Yak-9Ks were built, apparently because the gun was not entirely reliable and a failure could have disastrous consequences. Even larger cannon were tried, but the recoil of the NS-57 was too much for fighter.
(...)
Russian weapons such as the NS-37 were intended both for air-air combat and for use against ground targets. Usually only a single cannon of this type was carried, typically between the cylinder banks of the Klimov engines of the Yakovlev fighters.
(...)
The Yak and LaGG fighters were powered by the Klimov M-105, a Soviet development of the French Hispano-Suiza 12Y. This engine was suitable for installation of a cannon on the centreline, firing through the propeller hub. Initially this was the 20mm ShVAK or the far more powerful 23mm VYa, but soon heavier weapons were considered. The initial choice was the 37mm Sh-37, installed in a small number of LaGG-3 and Yak-9T fighters, but soon replaced by the competing NS-37. A small number of Yak-9TK and Yak-9K aircraft received the NS-45, a straightforward modification of the NS-37 to fire a larger shell. Later the NS-37 was replaced by the lighter N-37. That these weapons also could be carried by the final Yakovlev piston-engined fighter, the Yak-9P, indicates that they were considered a success. Yet their recoil was such that the pilots were trained to fire three-round burst with the NS-37, and single shots with the NS-45. They were also instructed to do so only at high airspeeds. The pilots were carefully selected for their shooting ability, and perhaps this contributed to the relatively high effectiveness of these weapons. Experiments with the NS-57 in the Yak-9 lead to the conclusion that the recoil of this weapon was really too high, and it was not installed in production aircraft.
(...)
But most NS-37 cannons were mounted between the cylinder banks of the engine of the Yak-9T fighter, ammunition load was 32 rounds. It was used in air to air and air to ground combat successfully, about 8000 cannons were built. Rate of fire was quite low for air combat and recoil was so violent that pilots were trained to fire only three-round bursts.
(...)
About the NS-45
This rare caliber was an experimental project and shortly used in the Yak-9K fighter plane. The NS-37 aircraft cannon was fitted with a 45mm barrel, to get the new gun NS-45, designation OKB-16-45. It weighted 152kg and fired 250rpm. It was developed by A. Nudelman and A. Suranov of the OKB-16 in 1944 and was also installed in the engine vee, firing through the propeller hub. Recoil was heavily increased with the increased projectile weight, so a large muzzle break was fitted to the barrel.
Only 53 Yak-9K planes fitted with the NS-45 gun were evaluated by special pilots in the war in 1944. The ammunition capacity in the fighter planes was 29 rounds. The NS-45 prooved itself unreliable and was not adopted for service.
(...)
The first refinement of the Yak-9 was the "Yak-9T", where "T" stood for "Tyazhelowooruzheny / Heavily Armed", fitted with an NS-37 37 millimeter cannon firing through the propeller spinner instead of the ShVAK 20 millimeter cannon. The variant went through evaluation in early 1943 and was in field service by the spring of that year. It proved very popular, with 2,748 built.

To accommodate the cannon, the cockpit was moved 40 centimeters (1.3 feet) towards the rear. While some sources claim that the Yak-9T was designed as a close-support aircraft, it appears that the fit of the NS-37 cannon was mainly to correct the inadequate firepower that had dogged the Yak-series fighters, and the Yak-9T was primarily used for air combat. The USSR had a better machine for close support, the heavily armored Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik.
(...)
A further development of the Yak-9U, the Yak-9UT was designed to take advantage of the versatility of the airframe and its ability to mount a large gun between the engine cylinders. While not designed for field modification, a 23mm, 37mm, or 45mm gun could be easily substituted on the production line.

The hardest hitting of these variants was the one that used the new N-37 gun (the 45mm variant required removal of the two 20mm cannon, thus reducing the overall salvo weight). The N-37 was a smaller and lighter version of the NS-37 used in the Yak-9T. It was equipped with a highly effective muzzle break that eliminated up to 85% of recoil forces thereby eliminating the worst problem associated with large caliber gun installations.

Introduced in March 1945, the Yak-9UT saw limited duty in combat trials before the German surrender. But in that short time, the big-gunned Yak made an impressive showing. One unit had 19 encounters and shot down 27 FW-190A-8s and a Bf-109G-6 for the loss of only 2 of their own number.


However, the claim that this gun almost stop the plane may be innacurate.
Also, the way the game modelized the recoil of the gun in a-9UT is that after the first shot, you are already thrown out of the target... not after 3 shoots... If a N-37 is used however, recoil should be less important, while the ammo should then be depleted in a mere 4-5s!.

Kocur_
11-08-2005, 02:39 PM
Originally quoted by SD_Fugazi:

The N-37 was a smaller and lighter version of the NS-37 used in the Yak-9T. It was equipped with a highly effective muzzle break that eliminated up to 85% of recoil forces thereby eliminating the worst problem associated with large caliber gun installations.

If N-37 is a "version" of NS-37, than BAR is a version of M1917 lol Those were different cannons: NS-37 was recoil operated and N-37 was gas operated. Recoil of N-37 was reduced by decreasing amount of propellant in case, so muzzle velocity was reduced too.

What is strange about N-37 is that if it was mounted in Yak-9UTs in 1945 why were MiG-15s armed with NS-37 in 1948? N-37 was mounted not sooner than on a bit later MiG-15bis'.

EDIT: N-37 was mounted on Yak-9UT prototype, serial Yak-9UTs (282 produced in february-may1945) had NS-37. Looks like B-20 history repeated: mounted in prototypes of planes in hope it will be finally made reliable enough to be used in combat but replaced with older weapon in serial planes.




Introduced in March 1945, the Yak-9UT saw limited duty in combat trials before the German surrender. But in that short time, the big-gunned Yak made an impressive showing. One unit had 19 encounters and shot down 27 FW-190A-8s and a Bf-109G-6 for the loss of only 2 of their own number.


General comment: everytime you read such a story of how many German planes were killed by "a unit", replace words "shot down" with "claimed". VVS overclaimed their victories in WW2 by 7 to 11 times.

LEXX_Luthor
11-08-2005, 02:47 PM
Fugazi::
However, the claim that this gun almost stop the plane may be innacurate.
Plane stopping guns are a favorite slogan on dogfight game internet webboards. Although, real pilots would joke about their guns stopping their planes in mid-air. There was a variant of Yak-3T with 57mm cannon, flown once, by A.B. Yumashyev, bless his soul.

Kocur_
11-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Fugazi:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">However, the claim that this gun almost stop the plane may be innacurate.
Plane stopping guns are a favorite slogan on dogfight game internet webboards. Although, real pilots would joke about their guns stopping their planes in mid-air. There was a variant of Yak-3T with 57mm cannon, flown once, by A.B. Yumashyev, bless his soul. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you entirely sure that it was Yak-3? I mean Stepanets mentiones single Yak-3T with 37mm cannon built in 1945 (in state trials between 17 february - 27 april 1945, not produced serially), while I read of NS-57 mounted in a Yak-9 not -3.

LEXX_Luthor
11-08-2005, 03:27 PM
Gunsten calls it OKB-16-57, distinct from -3T with N-37. This was published back in 1983 though.

p1ngu666
11-08-2005, 03:45 PM
whats a good convergance for the yak8ut 37mm cannon? i really cant hit with the thing..

SD_Fugazi
11-08-2005, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Kocur_:
Yak-9UT - N-37: 0,735kg, 690m/s, 400rpm, 30rds(I used it in ~15s).


Originally posted by Kocur_:
What is strange about N-37 is that if it was mounted in Yak-9UTs in 1945 why were MiG-15s armed with NS-37 in 1948? N-37 was mounted not sooner than on a bit later MiG-15bis'.

I don't really know Kocur, except that the N-37 was mounted on the Mig-9 also, and that it seems that they were at least available from 1946 onward, as for the MiG-15bis early production, I have the NM-37... not NS-37, NM-37 probably being an evolution of the NL-37... sometimes also called N-37.

Remark:
The quotations that I put in italic before were from various sites on the internet.

I do not want to enter in a sterile debate about the inferiority or superiority of accuracy of claims of one country or another, this is not the point... the point of this thread is that whatever gun is in the -9UT, it seems that the rate of fire is surprising. So if the gun is a NS-37, let it be the same representation as the one in the Yak-9T. If it is a N-37, let it be the representation of a N-37. And if it is possible, let the pilot have the choice either to take a NS-37, or a NS-23 or a N-37... as main gun for the Yak-9UT.

SD_Fugazi
11-08-2005, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
whats a good convergance for the yak8ut 37mm cannon? i really cant hit with the thing..
That is not really a question of convergence... but more or less a question of improper ROF...
For the NS-37 however we can keep the following in mind:

Normal firing ranges were 100m to 400m against fighters, and 500m to 600m against bombers, but the maximum effective range was about 1200m.

In a case of a N-37 however, those ranges would probably have to be reduced due to a lower muzzle velocity.

Rule of thumb, do not shoot at more than 250 meters... And hope that your target will not move and that you have high probability of actually touching the target with your single shell.

VW-IceFire
11-08-2005, 07:33 PM
Before 4.02 was introduced I was getting pretty good hitting with the N-37. Both the Yak-9UT and the Yak-9M carry the weapon (its an option the 9M).

At the moment I'm relearning to keep a steady aim in the Yak's but I should be good at it again.

It takes some work to get a good shot. Basically you have to fly straight for a moment, pick the target point, shoot a pair or shots off and then start the process again.

You do not want to hold the button down...

Kocur_
11-08-2005, 11:25 PM
I edited mu post above: I read the proper chapter in my book on Yak-7/9: N-37 was on Yak-9UT prototype only, serial planes (228) had NS-37 again.

But that doesnt really matter! What matters is Fugazi discovered a bug in Yak-9UT making its big gun fire way (~twice) too slow.

The_AirWolf
11-09-2005, 01:16 AM
Attention to the hardballs aircraft viewer these yaks have different guns...

Yak-9UT, Yakovlev = 1 x 37 mm NS-37 Cannon
Yak-9T, Yakovlev = 1 x 37 mm Cannon (NS)
Yak-9K, Yakovlev = 1 x 45 mm Cannon (NS)

To Ingame IL2 Database
Yak-9T, Yakovlev = 1 x 37 mm Cannon (NS)
Yak-9K, Yakovlev = 1 x 45 mm Cannon (NS)
Yak-9UT, Yakovlev = is not available

and i think NS is not equal NS-37
NS-37 <> NS

koivis
11-09-2005, 06:30 AM
Interesting, this site http://free-st.htnet.hr/dvd/Weapons.html shows that Yak-9UT also has NS-37 except with different ammo belt. Also check the BK thread http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=6...371022573#9371022573 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=9371022573&r=9371022573#9371022573)

Kocur_
11-09-2005, 07:33 AM
Originally posted by The_AirWolf:
Attention to the hardballs aircraft viewer these yaks have different guns...

Yak-9UT, Yakovlev = 1 x 37 mm NS-37 Cannon
Yak-9T, Yakovlev = 1 x 37 mm Cannon (NS)
Yak-9K, Yakovlev = 1 x 45 mm Cannon (NS)

To Ingame IL2 Database
Yak-9T, Yakovlev = 1 x 37 mm Cannon (NS)
Yak-9K, Yakovlev = 1 x 45 mm Cannon (NS)
Yak-9UT, Yakovlev = is not available

and i think NS is not equal NS-37
NS-37 <> NS

And if NS is not equal to NS-37 or NS-45 cannons, that its equal to what? The missing thing is meaning of those two letters, and they stand fot Nudelman and Suranov, i.e. names of these cannons designers.
If N-37 was to be named after ALL its designers it would have to be: NSRG-37 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

p1ngu666
11-09-2005, 02:01 PM
hmm, i used to hit ok with the M, but not the ut http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif