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Jex_TG
05-27-2005, 06:53 AM
I've been using the P38 quite a lot but in more of a CAS/bomber role. I load it up with 2x1000lb bombs and 10 rockets and go on my way.

Because of this I've got myself beleiveing that it's not much of a fighter, but then I've read a few posts here that seem to say otherwise.

So how does it compare as a fighter? I know she's fast, but what else should I know?

Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dumbo_AK32nd
05-27-2005, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TG:
So how does it compare as a fighter? I know she's fast, but what else should I know?

Yeah, that's probably my favorite thing about the P-38...when you find yourself in trouble, her speed can definitely help you get out of it!

But all of that horsepower also makes it a lousy turn fighter in a knife fight. It's a basic aerodynamic principle that the faster you're moving, the wider the turn...so the P-38 is definitely a "boom-and-zoom" aircraft.

Armament is excellent. Those nose cannons can shred a Zeke in just a few quick bursts...provided you're patient and get in close.

Philipscdrw
05-27-2005, 08:48 AM
I love the P-38L online as a dogfighter. It can climb fast and reach the combat area quickly, from above, and with combat flaps and airbrakes it's manoueverable. It's powerfully armed, as Dumbo states, and has that whole twin-engined redundancy to get you home. I love it!

wadenator
05-27-2005, 08:52 AM
Its a good plane, but it is harder to master. Most people say it sucks but that is really because they suck at flying it.

Atomic_Marten
05-27-2005, 08:54 AM
Download and watch this track.
Things about this issue will be mucho clear for you then.

http://free-kc.t-com.hr/nino/cpt.ntrk

VW-IceFire
05-27-2005, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TG:
I've been using the P38 quite a lot but in more of a CAS/bomber role. I load it up with 2x1000lb bombs and 10 rockets and go on my way.

Because of this I've got myself beleiveing that it's not much of a fighter, but then I've read a few posts here that seem to say otherwise.

So how does it compare as a fighter? I know she's fast, but what else should I know?

Thx http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
She's fast, well armed, and very manueverable in the right situation. You can stall fight some opponents and out run the rest. But its a very tricky plane to master as a fighter and you really have to become a team player to use it properly. She's not a good lone wolf plane which is why many disregard the plane as a capable fighter. In the P-38, combat flaps (the real P-38 REALLY had combat flaps) are your friend.

Advantages:
- Excellent climb
- Excellent concentrated firepower
- Fast, manueverable in some situations
- Twin engine reliability means you can get back to base with an engine shot out (learn how to manage two engines and how to feather)

Disadvantages:
- Big target
- Experiences compressability frequently (even in areas it shouldn't)
- Controls are easily knocked out
- Difficult to manuever without some proper experience flying the aircraft

fordfan25
05-27-2005, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by wadenator:
Its a good plane, but it is harder to master. Most people say it sucks but that is really because they suck at flying it.

thats true. all though im not to sure about the version in game right now being up to real life.
also it does not help when evey boady and there mother is flying a ki84C lol i cant wait for the new late war version with the more powerfull engiens that was rumored. ....if the romur is true that is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Philipscdrw
05-27-2005, 09:49 AM
I want some earlier versions of the P-38!

I <3 the P-38, but I do fly it lone-wolf style - but I have success with it!

Scen
05-27-2005, 09:55 AM
The P-38 in the game isn't quite up to par with the real thing if it where you would see more people flying it.

The P-38 is a very effective fighter if used properly. It will out run almost all of the Japanese airplanes. The trick is to give your self some turning room and use its speed to your advantage.

The US Top ACE Richard Bong was a P-38 Driver with 40 kills.

Scendore

3.JG51_BigBear
05-27-2005, 12:03 PM
Many of the 38's greatest real life advantages just don't come through in video games. The 38's twin engines gave pilots a supreme sense of confidence in their rides and their ability to make it back home, range estimation and deflection shooting were simplified significantly by the placement of the weapons on the plane's centerline, and the cockpit was very comfortable by all accounts and offerered an excellent field of vision. In real life when most combats started as a bounce, having an aircraft that offered pilot comfort and simplicity of shooting to make the first burst count made the 38 a real killer against the Japanese planes with significantly less power and high altitude performance. After the initial bounce, 38 pilots could use their superior speed to pick apart the scatered Japanese fighters.

In game, I find the best strategy is to go head to head with planes like the zero and ki43. Given the poor quality of Japanese machine guns and machine cannons, your opponenet's rounds will have a much slower muzzle velocity and their rounds' trajectory will deteriorate significantly whereas the weapons on the 38 will find their mark at much further ranges. Head to head those four .50s and that honkin 20MM will rip any plane a new one.

Philipscdrw
05-27-2005, 12:14 PM
I think the P-38 in Il-2 is manoueverable enough to hold its own against the Luftwaffe. I haven't flown against Japanese targets very much though.

AerialTarget
05-27-2005, 02:39 PM
In the game, it's actually slower than about ninety percent of the fighters you encounter online. And it can't turn fight to save its life.

I've only been playing this game for a week since coming back to it after a year or so long absence, and I never was that good at the game to begin with, but I still feel confident in saying that I can beat any P-38 pilot here in a Messerschmitt. If you want to take me up on this challenge, then I shall arrange for it.

Bull_dog_
05-27-2005, 03:00 PM
I fly it a lot and consider myself to be respectable in it...it is fare to midland. Good pilots always get more out of their planes than inexperienced pilots so it goes without saying that the better pilots do better.

The plane can be effective, however it suffers from one real obvious flaw and that is elevator authority/compressibility. Other than that, it is very effective. Due to the compressibility problems, you always have to slow down to manuever with your opponent and make adjustments to your dive in B&Z. It could be a little better at high AoA manuevers and slow speed stall fighting but its real achilles heel is its loss of manueverability at high speed. The L model isn't quite right in rate of roll at speed and I think it's lack of boost will be adjusted in the new patch which should put it on par.

Yes it can be effective. The J model can outspeed contemporary 43 109's and outclimb/out turn Fw's of same vintage. With suprise, its guns can be devastating but as speed approached 600km/hr it is verrry easy for an opponent to outmanuever and force an overshoot.

Give me elevator authority at high speeds under 20,000 ft and you'll see plenty more lightning jocks killing many more aircraft much faster. It might even be respected...right now I do good in the J lightning against contemporary opponents if I fly patiently and I do good against lightnings if I fly luft planes.

BSS_CUDA
05-27-2005, 03:32 PM
if you fly right the only Japanese aircraft you need to worry about is the KI-84, you are lots faster than any other japanese plane in the game, just dont try to out climb the Zero. the KI-61 is a joke, even if one does get on your 6 with those spitballs it shoots it wont hurt you, just keep your spped up and you'll be ok, pull a Bong and do alotta headon's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif with the 20mm it only take 1-2 hits and then you can break out the Marshmallow's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif and that is true with ANY japanese plane they all burn like rice paper. easy kills if you get the shot.

Tallyho1961
05-27-2005, 03:50 PM
I'm reading an interesting book on the P-38 called "Fork-tailed Devil" by Martin Caidin.

Here is what General Edward B. Giller had to say about the P-38 in the ETO:

"In summary, I think the consensus of the 55th and of all fighter groups in England would be that the P-38 was not really suited for the ETO, for reasons which I described above, but I will list them again:

1. (Long-distance enemy) Recognition (due to unique shape)
2. Pilot comfort (apparently the cockpit heater was poor)
3. Engine problems at high altitude
4. Dive limitations (Addressed via dive brakes on later models)
5. Fire vulnerability

When all groups converted to P-51s in the summer of 1944, their kill rate and morale zoomed. This story, of course, is not the same for the Pacific."

I haven't included this because I have anything against the P-38 or in favour of the P-51, but just because I happen to be reading the book and thought of General Giller's comments when I saw this post.

BSS_CUDA
05-27-2005, 04:44 PM
after you get done with that book. read the P-38 lightning by Warren Bodie, its a MUCH better book and gets indepts to the reasons why the 38 wasnt used effectivly in the ETO. its also not a rah rah book like the Forked-tailed Devil is. it is a research book thats based on statistics, and accounts from Test Pilots, Generals, Combat Pilots and Lockheed execs. it traces the ENTIRE history of the 38 from conception to wars end. there are some interesting stories in the Forked-tail Devil, but the Bodie book is really the Encyclopedia of the P-38



1. (Long-distance enemy) Recognition (due to unique shape)
2. Pilot comfort (apparently the cockpit heater was poor)
3. Engine problems at high altitude
4. Dive limitations (Addressed via dive brakes on later models)
5. Fire vulnerability


1. how was the regognition any different in the PTO?
2. granted at Alt there was no heater, but in the pacific there was no A/C either
3. solved with the J model. lame excuse the J was in service late 43, early 44
4. see #3
5. how was this different than in the PTO?

it all boiled down to the mind set only a few generals like Kelsy and doolittle saw the benifits of the 38 as a fighter, all the others had the mindset that a fighter had to be single engine. it was the Generals and thier lack of leadership and poor pilot training that doomed the 38 as a fighter in the ETO. unlike in the ETO in the PTO they had pilots that had twin engine experience, namely Bong and Maquire, and we all know how poor they did with the 38 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Tallyho1961
05-27-2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
after you get done with that book. read the P-38 lightning by Warren Bodie, its a MUCH better book and gets indepts to the reasons why the 38 wasnt used effectivly in the ETO. its also not a rah rah book like the Forked-tailed Devil is. it is a research book thats based on statistics, and accounts from Test Pilots, Generals, Combat Pilots and Lockheed execs. it traces the ENTIRE history of the 38 from conception to wars end. there are some interesting stories in the Forked-tail Devil, but the Bodie book is really the Encyclopedia of the P-38

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
1. (Long-distance enemy) Recognition (due to unique shape)
2. Pilot comfort (apparently the cockpit heater was poor)
3. Engine problems at high altitude
4. Dive limitations (Addressed via dive brakes on later models)
5. Fire vulnerability


1. how was the regognition any different in the PTO?
2. granted at Alt there was no heater, but in the pacific there was no A/C either
3. solved with the J model. lame excuse the J was in service late 43, early 44
4. see #3
5. how was this different than in the PTO?

it all boiled down to the mind set only a few generals like Kelsy and doolittle saw the benifits of the 38 as a fighter, all the others had the mindset that a fighter had to be single engine. it was the Generals and thier lack of leadership and poor pilot training that doomed the 38 as a fighter in the ETO. unlike in the ETO in the PTO they had pilots that had twin engine experience, namely Bong and Maquire, and we all know how poor they did with the 38 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not having flown a P-38, or any other aircraft during WWII, I can't account for the General's opinions in these matters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As I said, my point wasn't to dis the P-38, which I personally think is a beautiful a/c, but to offer comments from someone with a qualified opinion, that I just happened to come across.

You'll note that he does say at the end of the quote that things were different in the PTO.

BSS_CUDA
05-27-2005, 05:20 PM
RGR wasnt refering to you. I didnt clarify sry. ya things were different. too bad the 38 wasnt givin a fair shake in the ETO, ppl seem to think that the P-51 won the war. far from it. LONG before the 51 was around in mass in late 44 the 38's had already been in combat for 3 years and the 38's and 47's had beaten the cream of the luftwaffe, by the time the 51 showed up ready to fight, they were fighting against relatively inexperienced pilots. all things considered the 38 was an outstanding fighter in the ETO especially when you consider the quality of battle hardened pilots they had to face and defeat, before!! the Mustang was on the scene.

Tallyho1961
05-27-2005, 06:21 PM
...which is more or less what Caidin is saying in the early part of the book, which I have yet to finish.

I don't think I've got the depth of knowledge of some of the real aficionados around here, but I would suggest that it's highly unlikely that any one a/c won the war.

They all played their roles and with the resources being poured into development I suppose its inevitable that some machines that were predominant in the early years were inevitable outclassed as time went by.

Anyway, the Lightning is a beautiful bird http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and she did her best in the ETO,MTO and PTO.

GoToAway
05-27-2005, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Scen:
The US Top ACE Richard Bong was a P-38 Driver with 40 kills. The #2 ace did as well (Tommy McGuire.) He would have surpassed Bong's 40 if he hadn't been killed shortly after Bong was sent back to the US.


The P-38 is a very capable fighter. Yes, what we have in PF currently does have some problems, but it's not half as bad as most people would lead you to believe.

It just requires a special touch.

Flying against Japanese aircraft in it is almost too easy. I can go 2 on 1 against veteran or ace AIs with every bit of confidence. I've even won more 3 on 1 fights than I've lost. The 38 allows you to completely control a fight against Japanese planes. They are powerless to dictate the fight, they can only take the openings that you give them.

The German planes are a bit more difficult because they're more comparable in speed... But pop down the combat flaps and you can turn with a 109 if you need to. Just don't let your speed drop too much or they'll be all over you and you won't have the chance to get moving again.

HotelBushranger
05-28-2005, 11:54 AM
I've noticed the P-38J is a lot more manouverable than the L version, I can keep up with a Spitfire

Loki-PF
05-28-2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
In the game, it's actually slower than about ninety percent of the fighters you encounter online. And it can't turn fight to save its life.

I've only been playing this game for a week since coming back to it after a year or so long absence, and I never was that good at the game to begin with, but I still feel confident in saying that I can beat any P-38 pilot here in a Messerschmitt. If you want to take me up on this challenge, then I shall arrange for it.

What about it Cuda? Gonna take him up on the challenge? I'd be happy to host and be a ref and impartial obserever/track recorder.....

VW-IceFire
05-28-2005, 01:22 PM
Its in tough hands against German aircraft...the P-38 doesn't have a huge margin of advantage against contemporary Luftwaffe fighters. In the Channel 1943 sceario that I built for UK-Dedicated I find the P-38J has some advantages over FW190s and Bf.109s and I can fly 1 vs 1 and 2 vs 2 scenarios quite effectively. If well flown I can hold my own and win handily.

Against Japanese planes its a piece of cake. I once took on 3 human piloted A6M3's and won in a P-38J. They had no chance to disengage or enter firing position. They were all destroyed at the end.

ZG77_Nagual
05-28-2005, 01:49 PM
I love the p38 - it is perhaps the most difficult fighter but I think it'way more fun to fly difficult planes. Also the concentrated firepower makes you impatient with wing mounted guns.

Badsight.
05-28-2005, 07:44 PM
im sorry but if a P-38 is in the game , ill go for it first , 200 points

90% of them are not flowen to the limit , i know that can do great things given proper cicumstances

as for the weak 20mm comment of Cuda's , wait for 4.0 youll have a faster (proper) P-38 , but proper 20mm as well

CARBONFREEZE
05-30-2005, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
Download and watch this track.
Things about this issue will be mucho clear for you then.

Whoever was flying that Fw190 obviously didn't have much experience with energy management. While watching that track I noticed four opportunities for the fw190 to make a kill shot or get into a rear-hemisphere position on the p38. Instead of reducing airspeed at the correct moment, the pilot overshot, which allowed the p38 to use its greater acceleration in the 250-350 kph speed range to re-engage the fw190 and obtain a greater position for a kill shot. A great example is when the fw190 is exiting a dive and the p38 is going into a steep climb approximately 400m at his 12 o'clock. The elevator authority of the fw190 would have allowed a near-fatal deflection shot on the p38 from the fw190.

Reguards

mynameisroland
05-30-2005, 07:20 AM
Can somebody pls post some statistics and figures that explain clearly how the P38 and Thunderbolt beat the 'cream' of the Luftwaffe as is often mentioned on these boards. More often than not it is also mentioned that the USAAF bet them with numercial inferiority.

The P38 was not as formidable an opponent in Europe as it was in the Pacific mainly because of the tactics and aircraft it was flying against. A P38 can dictate terms against a Zero but not a 109 or Fw 190. Up high the 109 was more effective and at low to medium alts the Fw 190 was faster. When people mention the turn circle ect of the P38 what they neglect is the fact that even with boosted aerilons it was not an instantly manuverable fighter. If you trick a P38 in game to lining up a shot in a right hand turn and just as you think the P38 guy is about to open fire you do a roll reversal the P38 will not be able to follow.

TAGERT.
05-30-2005, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Jex_TG:
So how does it compare as a fighter? I know she's fast, but what else should I know? Are you asking about the real P38 that had a 2 to 1 kill ratio, or the naddless shakie pos in this game that they call a P38?

JG53Frankyboy
05-30-2005, 10:01 AM
finnish Brwesters had a kill-loss ratio of 26:1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
does this say anything about a planes qualitiy ?

but yes, the P-38 handles not very good against same time german fighters.
as said, against japanese its a killer

huggy87
05-30-2005, 11:04 AM
One thing that is irritating about the P-38 is how it has been historically overinflated. Many books and documentaries state that the P-38 had more kills than any other aircraft in the pacific. A history channel program about the P-38 recently went so far as to say it had the most kills of any american aircraft. That is absolutely incorrect. That honor goes to the hellcat with over 5000 kills. The mustang was a close second with nearly 5000 kills between both theaters. What should be stated is that the P-38 had the most kills of any USAAF plane in the pacific.

Stanger_361st
05-30-2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jex_TG:
So how does it compare as a fighter? I know she's fast, but what else should I know? Are you asking about the real P38 that had a 2 to 1 kill ratio, or the naddless shakie pos in this game that they call a P38? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

100% correct

AerialTarget
05-31-2005, 02:55 PM
Hear, hear! Three cheers for Tagert!

LeadSpitter_
05-31-2005, 03:22 PM
fix its WRONG compressibility elevator below 26,000 feet and it would be much more deadly and used as a energy fighter, and if 6 .50s and super slow rof cannon along with recoil like its in a **** hurricane. If the .50s didnt hit like nerf maybe it can do some damage.

btw it should not be able to out turn 190s low speed but have more low speed accelaration and climb advantage

vs the 190 i give the p38j 5-10
p38j vs the 109 1-10
p38j vs the ki61 zeke ki43 10-10

LeadSpitter_
05-31-2005, 03:35 PM
franky boy also the finns did not have to face titanium russian deltawood we have in game, and .303s along with .50 could destroy any fighter in a 2-3 second burst accurately 600 yards but most effective 300 yards, many of the british hurricane aces used 200 150 with .303s vs he111s in bob and can shoot them down in a 2-3 burst flamming thier engines.

Also the b239 had advantage being lighter had a better turn rate, high speed control and rollrate vs the russian and old bombers of the time.

Against the japanese the f2a did badly out accelarated climbed and turned, there was many lightened fieldmods of the f2a, only advantage it had was high dive speed and higher speed manueverability.

Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a.

faustnik
05-31-2005, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
RGR wasnt refering to you. I didnt clarify sry. ya things were different. too bad the 38 wasnt givin a fair shake in the ETO, ppl seem to think that the P-51 won the war. far from it. LONG before the 51 was around in mass in late 44 the 38's had already been in combat for 3 years and the 38's and 47's had beaten the cream of the luftwaffe, by the time the 51 showed up ready to fight, they were fighting against relatively inexperienced pilots. all things considered the 38 was an outstanding fighter in the ETO especially when you consider the quality of battle hardened pilots they had to face and defeat, before!! the Mustang was on the scene.

Cuda,

The P-38 had troubles in the ETO other than the ones you mentioned. It's terrible initial roll and dive issues gave it a tactical disadvantage against the Fw190 and even Bf109. If the P-38 did not score on the initial bounce, the LW a/c could simply split-S to disengage. Why would the USAAF keep it when the P-47 and P-51 didn't have such issues? The P-38 was certainly given a "fair shake" in the ETO but, compared to the other excellent options that the USAAF had, the P-38 came up short.

huggy87
05-31-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a.

For the european theater alone the mustang had 4950 claims vice 3052 for the P-47.

http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/eak.htm

WOLFMondo
05-31-2005, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
if you fly right the only Japanese aircraft you need to worry about is the KI-84, you are lots faster than any other japanese plane in the game, just dont try to out climb the Zero.

Apart from the Ki84 its utterly untouchable if flown sensibly. Even after taking hits and engine damage its still very fast.

WOLFMondo
05-31-2005, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a.

Thats about the most incorrect statement i've ever read on almost every level!

faustnik
05-31-2005, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a.

Thats about the most incorrect statement i've ever read on almost every level! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's true, the R-2800 can take almost no damage before cr4pping out. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Leadspitter is 100% about the P-47 being the real killer in the ETO. When the P-47 arrived in '43 they made it tough on the Fw190 pilots, which had previously handled the Spitfires comfortably. The Jug was a much closer match for the Fw190 than previous oponents in speed, firepower, dive roll and toughness. It had the big advantage over the Fw190 however, of high altitude performance.

Badsight.
05-31-2005, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
and so does every other engine except the 190a. id have to include the LaGG & the LA engines in with the BMW.801

BSS_CUDA
06-01-2005, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by Loki-PF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
In the game, it's actually slower than about ninety percent of the fighters you encounter online. And it can't turn fight to save its life.

I've only been playing this game for a week since coming back to it after a year or so long absence, and I never was that good at the game to begin with, but I still feel confident in saying that I can beat any P-38 pilot here in a Messerschmitt. If you want to take me up on this challenge, then I shall arrange for it.

What about it Cuda? Gonna take him up on the challenge? I'd be happy to host and be a ref and impartial obserever/track recorder..... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry dont come to the PF forum that often, also saw his challenge on the general forum, I'd be more than happy to fly against him, when he gets PF look me up and we'll have a go at it, his want is to fly the G-6, that would be a tough one for me, but he also said ANY 109, so after the G6 we'll go with the G2 and the K, just to even things out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

pauldun171
06-01-2005, 08:30 AM
I've gone against FW-190's online in a P-38 and had mixed results, but would not hesitate to engage them. I try not to mix it up with 109's and prefer the sneak attack...boom and zoom sucks in the P-38 due to compressibility but at least you can hang on the props...almost the exact opposite of the P-47 (my prefered ETO ride).

Head on attack no problem...been a few encounters where an engine has been totally shot away going headon against some heavy hitters and I've brought it home.

As for the mighty Ki-84....I prefer to drag those bad boys over to the local AA battery.

LeadSpitter_
06-01-2005, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:

Huggy the american plane that shot down the most enemy ac was the p-47 as well as the most trains and ground vechiles in wwii. Its been said becuase of its 2800hp radial engine and durabililty. In here its engine gets shot out by 1 german 7.92 and so does every other engine except the 190a.

Thats about the most incorrect statement i've ever read on almost every level! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BS want tracks fool? give me your email addy mondo and you will eat those words.

and even yes the yak lagg mig la all do too from one hit engine stops it, it just does not freeze immediately like other engines but is not producing thrust and dies out within 2-3 seconds.

The 190a bmw is the only engine in game which can take many hits if you dont think so test all the ac multiple times and see then comeback and talk about that being unaccurate!

-------------------

as for the p47

At one time during the heady days of 1944, there were no less than 31 front-line fighter groups flying Thunderbolts. Thunderbolts fought on all fronts in World War 2, including Alaska. Approximately two-thirds of all Thunderbolts built actually reached operational units overseas. In two and a half years of combat, from March 1943 to August 1945, these Thunderbolts flew over half a million combat missions, destroying over 12,000 enemy aircraft both in the air and on the ground, as against a total of 5222 Thunderbolts lost, only 824 of them in the heat of combat. This corresponded to 54 percent of the Thunderbolts which went overseas being eventually lost either to enemy action or to accidents, which was a fairly typical attrition rate for a wartime fighter. Losses of Thunderbolts on operational missions were 0.7 percent of those dispatched, an exceptionally low figure.

By the end of the war, the Thunderbolt had established an overall ratio of air-to-air combat victories to losses of 4.6 to 1. Thunderbolts dropped 132,482 tons of bombs, fired 59,567 rockets, and expended 135 million belts of machine gun ammunition.

WOLFMondo
06-02-2005, 05:45 AM
Leadspitter, the P47 and 190's are my favorite rideshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I've flown each now as much as the other and been shot down in both more times than I care to remember in both.

I agree the 190a's engine is more difficult to take out but then hit has a massive wedge of armour plating surrounding the power plant, radiator and other important gubbins but from experiance its not uncommon for it to get seriously broken after a few hits.

AFAIK the P47's don't have engine armour plating to the degree of the 190A's. I don't think its engine is taken out to easy, would you not agree its possible for a 7.92mm round to take out an engine, even a big durable R2800? Personally its happened to me but not very much, only when I've been stupid enough to sit behind a BF110 or He111 but then your asking to be shot in the engine doing that. You can only see tracers as well, it might look like a couple of tracers going in but that might be 10-20 rounds hitting the engine dead on in its most vulnerable point.

I think because of the way tracers and bullets work in this sim, collision detection, actual damage modeling vs visible damage modeling added with online problems such as ping, packet loss how can these tracks be 100% accurate?

bolillo_loco
06-02-2005, 07:20 AM
the biggest problem I have with the 38 is how the plane shakes when you shoot the guns. take a 109G series and select the 20mm mg 151, then shoot all the guns and watch how rock steady the bf 109 is. The 38 only has 2 more mgs than the bf 109 yet acts like a paint shaker when you shoot the guns. rather strange behavior when you consider the 38 weights 10,000 lbs more than the bf 109.

next is the incredibly low critical mach that it has in this game. at mach .67 the elevator has no authority. I find this rather strange when w/o dive recovery flaps the plane begins to buffet at mach .675 and at mach .74 the dive becomes terminal because of tuck under.

the fact that any control surface in the 38 loses its authority at high speed is rather strange. non boosted ailerons.......sure I agree that they have little authority at high speed, but rudders and evevators???? every pilot comment I have read gives me the impression that rudder and elevator response and authority was very good over the entire speed range that the 38 was capable of. the reason why the 38 would begin to tuck under at mach .72 and at mach .74 you could no longer keep the nose of the 38 from tucking under was because the main wing lost its lift. pushing forward on the stick would actually cause the nose to rise when this happened. the way the 38 acts in this game...well before mach .67 the 38's elevator begins to lose its authority. from mach .675 to mach .7 the plane should buffet. I can understand that since it may be difficult to model the wing losing lift that the elevator authority should be nerfed, but only at speeds of mach .72-.74

in this game it seems that at very low altitude the 38s elevator is so unresponsive that at 420 mph tas it is very difficult to pull out of a dive. 420 mph tas.......thats only mach .55!

Buzzsaw-
06-02-2005, 08:01 AM
Salute

Those guys who say a 7.92mm bullet should be able to take out a Thunderbolt engine have not actually had a look at a Pratt and Whitney R-2800. These are MASSIVE engines, and with 18 cylinders, a single 7.92 is not going to do much.

R2800 in Pylon racer:

http://www.wildfireairracing.com/images/bill2.jpg

If it actually penetrates, it might take out one cylinder head plug lead or the spark plug, but the other cylinders would be more than capable of continuing. Time and time again you can read examples of the Thunderbolts actually taking 20mm's in the engine and flying back to base. The current magic bullets we see from the Heinkel and Ju-87 rear guns are not realistic.

WOLFMondo
06-02-2005, 08:21 AM
Buzzsaw, you only hear the stories of the guys who make it back. You never hear from the guys who were lost on the wayhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Im not saying 1 should take it out but a) There is a possibility it can and b) What you see on screen doesn't tell you everything. Visual damage modelling doesn't tell the whole story, look at the wing of a P47 when its damaged in this sim, you get hit in the leading edge but you still get that fat hole in the middle of the wing for example, or your prop strikes another plane, it doesn't bend but you get the same visual damage modelling as if you get hit with a 30mm, 20mm or even a 7.92mm round. When a 109 gets hit in the tail it always gets that sort of cresent shape wedge knocked out its spine. Thats the visual damage, not the actual damage but a representation because the damage system in this sim isnt dynamic so it only shows what has been modelled. So that 1 bullet taking out a R2800 might now be one but 20 or 30 rounds, it only needs one to get into the prop gear.

RL and this Simulation are different. You cannot see all the bullets, in RL you have no lag, packet loss, ping problems, computed damage modellinghttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Buzzsaw-
06-02-2005, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Buzzsaw, you only hear the stories of the guys who make it back. You never hear from the guys who were lost on the wayhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Salute Wolfmondo

You have already been quoted the sortie survival rate for the P-47, so the fact is, far more P-47 pilots survived to come back than did not. It was the best U.S. Fighter in this regard, and probably the best ground attack fighter for survivability in the war.

Buzzsaw-
06-02-2005, 09:03 AM
Salute

See this huge thing in the front? That's the prop governer.

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/USAF/Museum002.jpg

Does that look like a single 7.92mm is going to do a lot of damage?

For scale reference, that's a Me-262 in the background. Notice the R2800 is almost as high as the wing?

Buzzsaw-
06-02-2005, 09:20 AM
Salute

Another idea of the size of the engine, look at the crewmember servicing engine at front of image.

http://www.web-birds.com/9th/404/usaf-001.jpg

WOLFMondo
06-02-2005, 10:24 AM
I've stood next to P47's and theres an R2800 on display at Hendon so yes, I've seen them in the flesh and there real big but I also reckon there is a chance a small number of 7.92mm rounds could take one down, not a high chance, but a chance never the less.

As I say again, in this sim you can only guess whats going on with the DM, you don't know if that single round hit the governator or the throttle cable. The engine died and thats all you can tell.


Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Buzzsaw, you only hear the stories of the guys who make it back. You never hear from the guys who were lost on the wayhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Salute Wolfmondo

You have already been quoted the sortie survival rate for the P-47, so the fact is, far more P-47 pilots survived to come back than did not. It was the best U.S. Fighter in this regard, and probably the best ground attack fighter for survivability in the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't matter what the plane is, what the loss rate was, the be all and end all is the guys who died flying that plane cannot tell you how and why there final moments where there final moments in that plane, they never made testimonials or got to tell there story.