PDA

View Full Version : Ju 88 supercharger and cruise speeds



lbhskier37
04-02-2006, 05:30 PM
First off, has anyone noticed the Ju-88 doesnt shift supercharger gears? You can't do it manually, and it should automatically do it at 3000m, but it never does. The Ju-88 should be able to hold 1.25 ata all the way up to about 6000m I think, but past about 2000m it can't even hold 1.15. Is this just graphical and the gauges are wrong or is this a bug?

Also, the JU-88 seems quite a bit slow. In the pilot manual Jippo translated it shows a cruise speed of 390kph at 2000m using an ata of 1.15 and rpm of 2250. When I use those settings I can only get around 350kph (310kph IAS). The max speed is listed as 410kph when useing 1.25 ata and 2400rpm, but all I can get at those settings is about 375kph (330kph IAS). I haven't tried any other alititudes, but these bugs make it unable to fly the Ju-88 by the book. Also speed was one of the Ju-88s main advantages, so having a cruise speed that is 40kph too slow is a very significant error.

pdog1
04-02-2006, 07:54 PM
Be sure, Ju88 is useless as "schnell bomber" and at any alt above 2000m.
Axis plane porked? Whats new? lol

The_Gog
04-02-2006, 08:44 PM
I bet the PE2 is all singing and all dancing too!

typical!!!


FIX THE JU88!!!!

StG2_Schlachter
04-03-2006, 02:36 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

But the Ju-88 is by far not the only plane that doesn't fly "by the book", i.e. the Mustang, Thunderbold and more.

This is a real problem with this simulator.

When it comes to fighters, the most of them don't have correct perfomance, but the relative performance between them is "okay".
When it comes to bombers however, the performance is way off.

I wouldn't expect this to change anymore, except for the Ju-88 maybe.

Maraz_5SA
04-03-2006, 03:31 AM
I have clearly observer the supercharger switching on when flying around 3000m.

I made some test weeks ago and the max speed I could achieve was some 10-20 Kmh slower than the books, but I think I can live with this.

IMHO, the worst problems of the Ju.88 are the PK from 6 o'clock and the very flammable wings/engines. But this remains one of the best aircraft of this sim.

Maraz

StG2_Schlachter
04-03-2006, 05:16 AM
What i mean with "by the book" is not only the top speed and service ceiling but also the behaviour at cruise conditions.

Just take a P-47 up to 20,000 feet and fly with the RL cruise setting of about 31" MP and 2100 RPMs. It will be slower than it should be.

JG53Frankyboy
04-03-2006, 06:38 AM
sry, but you are expecting to much from this game. you cant fly the planes after the book looking at the gauges.
that doesnt work, with no plane.
Oleg said a long time ago that the planes have to less power at 100% - its the game engine, we have to live with it.

lbhskier37
04-03-2006, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Maraz_5SA:
I have clearly observer the supercharger switching on when flying around 3000m.

I made some test weeks ago and the max speed I could achieve was some 10-20 Kmh slower than the books, but I think I can live with this.

IMHO, the worst problems of the Ju.88 are the PK from 6 o'clock and the very flammable wings/engines. But this remains one of the best aircraft of this sim.

Maraz

That is about what I got for top speeds too, 10-20kph off. But for a bomber, cruise speeds are way more important than top speeds as you don't fly top speed all the way to target.

JG53Frankyboy
04-03-2006, 06:48 AM
in real live , yes. where you had to care about fuel/range and engine reliability.
not in game.
you can fly the Ju88A4 with 100% pitch, 105% power and cooler open for the whole time without getting overheat.
in real your engine wouldnt have survived that . or if, you would not survive your ground crew chief http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

lbhskier37
04-03-2006, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
in real live , yes. where you had to care about fuel/range and engine reliability.
not in game.
you can fly the Ju88A4 with 100% pitch, 105% power and cooler open for the whole time without getting overheat.
in real your engine wouldnt have survived that . or if, you would not survive your ground crew chief http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In dogfight servers top speed is the only important thing, but many of use fly bombers in offline campaigns or even online campaigns where things like fuel consumption and cruise speeds are very important. Right now there is little reason to fly the Ju-88 over a He-111 because the He has better payload and its not much slower than the Ju-88 is currently. I'm glad we got the Ju, but it has more bugs right now than the original FW 190. Lets list them:

PK bug
Cruise speeds too slow by up to 40kph
Top speeds too slow by 10-20kph
level hold doesn't work
Supercharger doesnt change, or gauge just doesn't show it

Again bombers get last priority. More time is spent making sure latewar western dogfight planes arent over/undermodeled by 10kph, but the basic functions of bombers are neglected.

joeap
04-03-2006, 09:30 AM
Ju-88 is porked, be sure. I had to delete an offline dgen campaign out of frustration as I made the mistake of flying a lower rank and got saddled with a large bomb loads (2 500kg SC) and 100% fuel. Bombing from 5000M. I just could not keep up with the AI Ju-88s (are they using the old simple AI FM?) even if I took off with AP. Nice to be at 2500M below my flight when a few Ruskie fighters attack. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Shame I love the plane and the fact you can do both dive and level bombing in it. It was one of the most versatile planes in the LW and did all sorts of stuff.

Jippo01
04-03-2006, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Cruise speeds too slow by up to 40kph

Should compare to 100% power and 100% pitch, that is the "player cruise speed" anyway. Instruments are not accurate in a way that would allow realistic comparison:

110% power: Start(Not)leistung
100% power: Steigleistung

This is a suggestion by me.


Top speeds too slow by 10-20kph

And too high with bombs onboard. In average in my test top speeds were slightly overmodelled.



level hold doesn't work

Old Il-2 problem, will work to accuracy of -1m/s which will allow accurate bombing easily if you use higher speeds.



Supercharger doesnt change, or gauge just doesn't show it.


Used to work earlier, doesn't anymore. Still achieves ATA that it should at 3000m altitude. And too high ATA just below that.


As a general note the manual flight data is slightly optimistic. Finnish pilots recorded slower top speeds than the German manual indicates. But the game is more or less according to the German manual.

If you want to download Ju88 material, you can do it from here:

Reference packet for FB/PF (http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/Ju88/Ju88specFinal.pdf)

Ju 88 Pilot's notes (http://www.kolumbus.fi/jan.niukkanen/Ju88/Ju-88PilotsNotes.pdf)

But if you want to argue about the FM with Oleg, do not use my material but find your own. I have OK'd model with Oleg according to the material I have here (of which the downloadable material is only the tip of the iceberg), so we two agreed already. You may argue with me with my material, but if you want to take it to Oleg find your own stuff. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo

lbhskier37
04-03-2006, 09:52 AM
Thanks Jippo for the post.

I have one question regarding settings then. In those pilots notes it lists 3 main throttle setings, the continuous cruise settings, the 30 minute climb settings, and the 1 minute start setting. What throttle and pitch settings in game best represent those. I see you listed 110% power: Start(Not)leistung
100% power: Steigleistung
but I am not quite sure what those German words meanhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you claim the plane ingame matches the data you have I will have to tend to believe you because you seem to have probably seen more information on the Ju-88 than most anybody out there. I have just seen a long history of bombers in this game being neglected and it has always kinda irked me and sets me off pretty easy.

Jippo01
04-03-2006, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by lbhskier37:
Thanks Jippo for the post.

I have one question regarding settings then. In those pilots notes it lists 3 main throttle setings, the continuous cruise settings, the 30 minute climb settings, and the 1 minute start setting. What throttle and pitch settings in game best represent those. I see you listed 110% power: Start(Not)leistung
100% power: Steigleistung
but I am not quite sure what those German words meanhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you claim the plane ingame matches the data you have I will have to tend to believe you because you seem to have probably seen more information on the Ju-88 than most anybody out there. I have just seen a long history of bombers in this game being neglected and it has always kinda irked me and sets me off pretty easy.

Discussion is always good. Especially about the bombers. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Comparison about game throttle settings and real life is not very easy because game is simplified representation of the real. 110% is the the limited power in game and 100 is the continuous power, whilst the real plane could use full throttle (depending on the altitude) 1 minute or for forever.

So in simulation 110% is the one minute setting, but you can hold it for much longer. And the 100% is the climb/combat setting (30 minutes limit)which you can hold forever in game. Players will also use 100% for "cruise" since the simultion doesn't take factors like engine wear into account. So in fact I think for game it is correct to test 100% power as cruise speed, as otherwise the players will be too fast in the war simulation when cruising - nobody flies with 80% power in game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif So you see, there is no one truth, but all depends on how one wants to see things. For one 88 is too fast (he tests with bombs), and for another too slow (without them).

I tried to find the average of things, and I think it is quite close. But I'm not correct with everything, and all is open for opinions and tests.


-jippo

Viper2005_
04-03-2006, 12:11 PM
Consistency is of vital importance IMO.

Certainly players will tend to push their aeroplanes harder than the book suggests (but then again, so will pilots if they think they can get away with it!).

But if you unilaterally set the Ju-88 up to give "book" performance when flogged to death at 100% power in order to counteract this, then its relative performance will seem artificially poor when measured against that available to other aeroplanes (especially fighters) which are modelled to a different standard. Unless I'm misunderstanding?

BTW, If what we have now is complex engine management, I hope that BoB has really complex engine management!

Archer_F4U
04-03-2006, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Jippo01:
So in fact I think for game it is correct to test 100% power as cruise speed, as otherwise the players will be too fast in the war simulation when cruising - nobody flies with 80% power in game! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*Looks around wondering why I'm all alone*

Am I the only one that doesn't always run at full power? Admittedly, I cruise at 95-100% too often online, but if I'm flying a half decent distance or I'm flying fairly low, I often cruise at 65-80% (normally at 75%).

JG53Frankyboy
04-03-2006, 12:45 PM
when flying alone - no AI or human have to catch up formation.
its a waste of time.................

joeap
04-03-2006, 12:47 PM
Well then what am I doing wrong? Or more correctly, why the big discrepancy between my plane and the AI planes (no problem when I am leader)? Thanks for the info Jippo.

Jippo01
04-03-2006, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Consistency is of vital importance IMO.

Certainly players will tend to push their aeroplanes harder than the book suggests (but then again, so will pilots if they think they can get away with it!).

But if you unilaterally set the Ju-88 up to give "book" performance when flogged to death at 100% power in order to counteract this, then its relative performance will seem artificially poor when measured against that available to other aeroplanes (especially fighters) which are modelled to a different standard. Unless I'm misunderstanding?

BTW, If what we have now is complex engine management, I hope that BoB has really complex engine management!

I think that you will find that Ju 88 in the game matches the performance of a real 88 quite well. It can be flown more or less up to specs, sometimes under sometimes over given different test setups. Highest momentary power in game is more or less the same (top speed), and highest constant power (cruise or steig- u. kampfleistung, depending on altitude) will match 100% power in speed and climb.

If other planes allow themselves to be gamed to reach higher than historical specs, what can I say? I only say that I'm happy that 88 reaches the specs what it could, and not more.

I hope we will have very complex engines in BoB, I think I would even enjoy using the fuel pumping system (Pilots notes). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


-jippo