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View Full Version : Engine mounted MG151/20 & MGeschoss PROOF



Blutarski2004
03-30-2005, 08:36 AM
Well Gents,

This looks like fairly convincing proof that the MGeschoss round was standard ammunition for the 151/20 engine mounted cannon.

The following is taken from an Allied report on a captured 109-G14 which was shot down in July 1944. The a/c in question was armed with 1 x 20mm 151/20 + 2 x 13mm HMG - no gondola mounted guns.

QUOTE -

Armament
1 x MG151 20 mm. calibre, firing through propeller hub. 2 x MG131 over the engine.

Loading order 20 mm. gun- 1 AP/I, 1 HE/I/T (S.D.)(M. Geschoss) repeating. This order changed later in the belt to- 1 AP/I, 1 I/T, 2 HE/I/T (S.D.)(M. Geschoss) repeating.

Loading order for 13 mm. guns- 1 AP/T, 1 HE/T repeating. Nearly all tracer rounds were night trace, although the aircraft was on a daylight operation.

None of the guns had been fired and its was found that the ammunition tanks had not been completely filled.


Tank capacity Rounds carried

20 mm.
200 per gun ... 150

13 mm.
300 per gun ... 275

The Revi 16B gunsight was used.

- UNQUOTE


If I am interpreting the above text correctly, the MG151/20 ammunition sequence in the belt was alternating AP/I and MGeschoss. I'm assuming that the addition of the I/T later in the belt was an alert to the pilot that his ammunition supply was reaching a low level, as was similarly done in US belts.

I found the short loads of ammunition (less than max capacity) odd. Was there an ammunition shortage in Germany?

Those interested can find the full test here -
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

Of course, since I apparently have a reputation among certain Balkenkreuz oriented people as a biased unintelligent US type, the LW contingent may not wish to simply accept this post as reliable evidence

..... ;-)

AlmightyTallest
03-30-2005, 09:02 AM
A great read and an excellent find Blutarski!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LLv34_Stafroty
03-30-2005, 09:16 AM
in real life german guns were so powerful that they didnt need full ammo loadout. this is hard to accept to Ally side pilots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jambock_Dolfo
03-30-2005, 09:25 AM
I believe LW planes sometimes carried less than full ammo load to avoid/minimize chance of gun jams and feeding problems... Read about it somewhere, probably Helmut Lipfert's War Diaries...
But I am not sure on this one.

-dolfo

Blutarski2004
03-30-2005, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jambock_Dolfo:
I believe LW planes sometimes carried less than full ammo load to avoid/minimize chance of gun jams and feeding problems... Read about it somewhere, probably Helmut Lipfert's War Diaries...
But I am not sure on this one.

-dolfo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Interesting point. I can see the logic in that. Less ammunition means less weight means less strain on the feed mecanism.

JG54_Arnie
03-30-2005, 11:05 AM
Nice.

But Oleg knows this already. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RedNeckerson
03-30-2005, 12:29 PM
Accurate German loadouts are not a priority unfortunately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

faustnik
03-30-2005, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
Accurate German loadouts are not a priority unfortunately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have faith! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x__CRASH__x
03-30-2005, 01:48 PM
*crosses fingers and patiently waits for the patch*

p1ngu666
03-30-2005, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
Accurate German loadouts are not a priority unfortunately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have faith! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed, ive heard 150 being used instead of 200. think they have 200 ingame?

faustnik
03-30-2005, 02:32 PM
200 rounds? My plane has 4x that many. Silly Bf109s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fehler
03-30-2005, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
200 rounds? My plane has 4x that many. Silly Bf109s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, yes.. those baby plane flyers!

VW-IceFire
03-30-2005, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
200 rounds? My plane has 4x that many. Silly Bf109s. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Silly Bf109s...200 rounds are for kids!

*product of the 1980s TV generation*

Hunde_3.JG51
03-30-2005, 07:25 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Icefire, I was thinking the same thing. We just need a Trix rabbit skin and a screenshot of him in a 109.

http://www.generalmills.com/stream_image.aspx?rid=7523

Charos
03-30-2005, 08:50 PM
Most likely the Reason for the difference in Belt composition is that Two different Belts were joined together, to get rid of old ammo stocks.

Mid 1944 the Luftwaffe was phasing out the OLD HE/I ammo and replaceing it with the NEW Pure Incendery round.

Looks like this was a mix of old and new ammo beltings perhaps.

Goood find, although the useage of MG in the Hub mounted gun is beyond doubt. Its always good to see information of anykind.

Knowledge will set you free. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Icefire - 800 20mm Rounds are for crosseyed pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

faustnik
03-30-2005, 10:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charos:


Icefire - 800 20mm Rounds are for crosseyed pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WRONG! Wulves just don't like playing with their food. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Charos
03-30-2005, 11:07 PM
Crosseyed was for the Tempest Pilot while you 190 Drivers Faustnik - you fella's are flying Blind. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Much respect with your flying that crate - I would probably require 8*20MM guns to hit something in that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Badsight.
03-31-2005, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
Well Gents,

This looks like fairly convincing proof that the MGeschoss round was standard ammunition for the 151/20 engine mounted cannon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>i dont think anyone can say it wasnt

but the beltload in 3.04 is also historically accurate . . . . . . for killing Sturmoviks . what we have is what they used IRL for that very task

its the beltload that is probably the most correct inclusion for IL2 & FB v1.x

but now in AEP & PF , it should be changed back . . . . . . . but if because the games focus is away from just the ETO , why should just the beltload be changed

if oleg does change the MG151 for this reason , whats to stop people from wanting WTO FW190 specs or Bf109 specs ? . . . . . . just a thought

(im all for MG MG151 , is just what it needs)

LLv34_Stafroty
03-31-2005, 02:38 AM
why would anyone even want to attack bomber? its almost always 100% sure that its gunners hit you in engine or pilot. no matter of attack angle or speed.

tigertalon
03-31-2005, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
but the beltload in 3.04 is also historically accurate . . . . . . for killing Sturmoviks . what we have is what they used IRL for that very task

its the beltload that is probably the most correct inclusion for IL2 & FB v1.x
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is true, but ironically they used it primarily in gunpods, in other cannons they used belts with MG shells... That's why I am quite sure that belts for pod and non-pod Mg151/20 have been switched (by mistake probably).

carguy_
03-31-2005, 04:33 AM
Stafroty,you`re another troll I`m on a crusade against.Why even talk so much untrue #$@! ?

Do a 20deg headon at 460kph with a formation of b17.If fighters doesn`t catch you you`re immune to b17 defense.

Kurfurst__
03-31-2005, 04:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
I found the short loads of ammunition (less than max capacity) odd. Was there an ammunition shortage in Germany? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don`t think so, probably only to reduce the probability of jamming... Tony Williams said on LEMB that it was common on Spits as well to load only 90 rounds instead of 120 into the Hispano. Makes little sense in the game arena, but in real life they rarely got a good firing solution, and then they either fatally hurt the enemy plane before it noticed, or they ended up shooting the air behind the other guy...

The I/T rounds was pure incendinary shell, there were a great variaty of such shell combinations for German guns, HEI, HE, HEI-T, HE-T etc, with or without self destruct fuse etc...

Badsight.
03-31-2005, 05:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tigertalon:
It is true, but ironically they used it primarily in gunpods, in other cannons they used belts with MG shells... That's why I am quite sure that belts for pod and non-pod Mg151/20 have been switched (by mistake probably). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>oh now that just plain BITES

my gawd , how long have we been flying with this now !

& people dont like to see mk108's !

Choctaw111
03-31-2005, 06:08 AM
Yes the loadout we have now for the 151/20 will work great on Sturmoviks but how often do we encounter them in missions. Chances are if we will encounter them we will probably know about beforehand hence the ability to choose which type of ammo loadout you want to use. If you are not going up against Sturmoviks then the belts with MG rounds will work best. Since I really do not know much about these things how hard would it be integrate a program to be able to choose you ammo belt type that would work best for the mission that you will be flying.

anarchy52
03-31-2005, 06:57 AM
AP/API/HEI is not very effective in FB.
How many times have you sprayed a Yak leaving two trails of fuel with 7,62/15/20mm and it caught fire?

Myself - not once.

bit OT: MiG-3 used to be very flamable aircraft similar to Zero we have now. Now it's as tough as 109. Did anybody else notice.

Blutarski2004
03-31-2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
I found the short loads of ammunition (less than max capacity) odd. Was there an ammunition shortage in Germany? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don`t think so, probably only to reduce the probability of jamming... Tony Williams said on LEMB that it was common on Spits as well to load only 90 rounds instead of 120 into the Hispano. Makes little sense in the game arena, but in real life they rarely got a good firing solution, and then they either fatally hurt the enemy plane before it noticed, or they ended up shooting the air behind the other guy...

The I/T rounds was pure incendinary shell, there were a great variaty of such shell combinations for German guns, HEI, HE, HEI-T, HE-T etc, with or without self destruct fuse etc... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... That makes sense. I do recall reading sometime back in the mists of time that there had been some feed problems due to stretching of the links in the feed belt. Reducing the number of cartridges would have clearly reduced the strain on the belt as it was being pulled through.

I always like it when we have friendly, and calm exchanges of data. Thank you.

WWMaxGunz
03-31-2005, 10:15 AM
many months ago when we thought there were MG shells undermodelled and it was supposed
to be AP and kinetic that was making the best damage, there were calls for MG to be
replaced by AP. Now we know different. But it is no difference because no change was
made since FB 1.0.

Werre_Fsck
03-31-2005, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do a 20deg headon at 460kph with a formation of b17.If fighters doesn`t catch you you`re immune to b17 defense. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Carguy correct. For some reason it seems 450 is a border speed for ground and rear gunners... geep speed slightly above it and use miniscule side movement -> usually no hits. Fly below that speed and get torched.

This hits the emil especially bad in jabo role since the **** bugger can't keep >450 with bomb unless in shallow dive :-)

RedNeckerson
03-31-2005, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedNeckerson:
Accurate German loadouts are not a priority unfortunately http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have faith! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Faust,

Re-working the damage model in 3.05 and then 4.0 doesn't equal adding the MG round.

Or do you know something I don't? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Badsight.
03-31-2005, 11:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Choctaw111:
Yes the loadout we have now for the 151/20 will work great on Sturmoviks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>actually they are just as poor performing on Sturmo's as they are on any other plane

in FB , HE is the key

AP will get pilots & motors by the bucketload , but when it comes to busting planes apart then you need a piece of HE

if your getting Sturmos shot down with the current MG151 , then it & every precededing kill you ever made with the MG151 would have been eaiser if its beltload was the way most online users think it should be

LLv34_Stafroty
04-01-2005, 07:35 AM
well, there isnt so much difference in game code about the ammunition. He does this much hit points of damage, while AP does this much of damage. some special there could be, like igniting fire with incendiary ammo, and there is times with bit differences when things blow up after gettin in fire. its in my opinion that simple.

jeroen_R90S
04-01-2005, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
well, there isnt so much difference in game code about the ammunition. He does this much hit points of damage, while AP does this much of damage. some special there could be, like igniting fire with incendiary ammo, and there is times with bit differences when things blow up after gettin in fire. its in my opinion that simple. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If everything was that simple we could play games and use software straight out of the box -the time wasted on patches and addons could be used to create many new games!

Maybe you can write to a ruthless dictator and ask for simple solutions? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jeroen

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-01-2005, 02:37 PM
Thats proof because a fan site says so? You can come up with more sound facts then that I hope.

JG5_UnKle
04-02-2005, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Thats proof because a fan site says so? You can come up with more sound facts then that I hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Mg151shellcomposition.jpg

Unless Adolf Galland didn't know what he was talking about either.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

BBB_Hyperion
04-02-2005, 06:12 AM
3x Mine that would be sure worth some try .)

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-02-2005, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG5_UnKle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Thats proof because a fan site says so? You can come up with more sound facts then that I hope. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v662/aegeeaddict/Mg151shellcomposition.jpg

Unless Adolf Galland didn't know what he was talking about either.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If it was translated it would help your debate.
Have a look here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-02-2005, 07:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
in real life german guns were so powerful that they didnt need full ammo loadout. this is hard to accept to Ally side pilots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Robert S. Johnson- " When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets."

Badsight.
04-02-2005, 08:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
If it was translated it would help your debate.
Have a look here http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>lol your rushing in on this here Havok , is not like this has "all of a sudden" popped up for discussion in the last month

what part of it is being "debated" ?

JG5_UnKle
04-03-2005, 01:00 PM
Does the word "Mine" not really give it all away http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - I don't think it needs translating.

I can't find a translation on the link you posted - what did I miss?