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View Full Version : P47 .50 cal..I whinged, they were porked, nope I was wrong! Sorry



Mysticpuma2003
11-10-2006, 02:15 PM
I have had so much frustrating online play for the last year, shooting at planes (109's and 190's) but to no effect..maybe a couple of whispy smokes, sometimes a fuel leak..but that was it(unless PK)

Tonight, on Warclouds, I accidentally left my P-38 settings on for the P-47...damaged (heavy smoke) a 109, shot down a 190 and then took the wing off another 190, all in one sortie.

Sorry I know that this may seem a small achievement to you shooting gods, but my convergence is now 250 on the cannon and 300 on the machine guns, and that absolutely obliterates anything in it's field of spray.

Just bubbling with happiness at the moment that the P-47 I have hated since the patches, was all down to me and my convergence...I'M BACK!!! WAHAY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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AFJ_rsm
11-10-2006, 02:24 PM
50 cals are overmodelled be sure

TheBandit_76
11-10-2006, 02:26 PM
It's just euphoria from a good night online and 1 great sortie. Report back in one month, or 26 missions, wichever comes first.

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Jaws2002
11-10-2006, 02:38 PM
Nothing wrong with the P-47 except the horible visibility and views in the razorback. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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fordfan25
11-10-2006, 02:41 PM
and its weak DM,and the glass block double wasp,and the fact doras out dive it with ease.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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RCAF_Irish_403
11-10-2006, 02:42 PM
your convergence is still way too long for the .50's in sim. Try 100-150m http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
11-10-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
I have had so much frustrating online play for the last year, shooting at planes (109's and 190's) but to no effect..maybe a couple of whispy smokes, sometimes a fuel leak..but that was it(unless PK)

Tonight, on Warclouds, I accidentally left my P-38 settings on for the P-47...damaged (heavy smoke) a 109, shot down a 190 and then took the wing off another 190, all in one sortie.

Sorry I know that this may seem a small achievement to you shooting gods, but my convergence is now 250 on the cannon and 300 on the machine guns, and that absolutely obliterates anything in it's field of spray.

Just bubbling with happiness at the moment that the P-47 I have hated since the patches, was all down to me and my convergence...I'M BACK!!! WAHAY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
What were you using before? I've been using that setup (roughly) for years and always felt that the .50cals (as soon as AEP came out) were good enough.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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LEBillfish
11-10-2006, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
your convergence is still way too long for the .50's in sim. Try 100-150m http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

yup, though I'd suggest unless you have taken the time to see when you instinctively fire 150-175 for both cannon and gun<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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KIMURA
11-10-2006, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
your convergence is still way too long for the .50's in sim. Try 100-150m http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

100-150m works perfect if your aim is good, but keep in mind, the shorter the convergence the more accurate your aim has to be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
11-10-2006, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by KIMURA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RCAF_Irish_403:
your convergence is still way too long for the .50's in sim. Try 100-150m http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

100-150m works perfect if your aim is good, but keep in mind, the shorter the convergence the more accurate your aim has to be. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You also loose out in being able to lead shots in high angle deflection shooting. I prefer to put my convergence further out...particularly with .50cals to be able to lead better as the bullets arc higher with longer convergence.

Its all about preference and tradeoffs.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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faustnik
11-10-2006, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:

You also loose out in being able to lead shots in high angle deflection shooting. I prefer to put my convergence further out..

Yeah, I tried short convergence with the P-47 and went back to 200/225. For some reason it works better for me.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Mysticpuma2003
11-10-2006, 03:57 PM
Used to be 100 and 150...but after watching a track I saw my shots converging in front of the target and spraying wide of the mark too often.

Tonight, it all came good, the P-47 is back...wooohoo!

I'm leading my shots as I used to, and now the world is a good place to be again...for me!

Cheers, MP.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Mysticpuma2003
11-11-2006, 01:07 AM
To add to the above post.

This is what I found when I watched back the tracks.

If I was approaching a bandit from high (B n Z), I would start firing at about the point where the 'bandit' planes wings from left-to-righttouched either side of the gunsites circle.

I would then try to lead that shot as I went through the line of their flight and then come out and gain alt.

Watching the tracks back I saw that generally the spray of fire was converging before the plane and then as I lead the shot, only at a small point did the bullets converge on the traget and that is what usually caused whispy smoke or fuel leak.

I found/find it very hard to lead a shot in the P-47 at such a short convergence, as even in a D-27 or D it is hard to see past the engine (but I do feel for 190 flyers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif ), and the only way of guaranteeing a hit was to sneak up on a low-six to get some hits at that distance (again for me others are way better).

Now with that setting last-night, I was keeping the bandit in view, and getting good rates of damage.

TBH it;s the first time in a long time that I have taken a wing off a 190 with the P-47, but to get another smoking heavily (109) and then to take out another 190...well my kill/hit rate has in all honesty improved by at least 50/60%!

I know time-will-tell if this was just a lucky night, but I just thought that rather than being one of the other (and I have) .50 cal whiners, I thought i'd say that even after all this time flying a '47 (labour of love!), at last I feel like I am getting to the root cause of my disappointment in it's gunnery...and that would be .....me!

Cheers, MP.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Xiolablu3
11-11-2006, 01:12 AM
I agree Mystic, the 50's rock, you just have to get the right convergeance and learn how to use them properly.

You cant just soray and pray like you can with cannons, you have to get a good concentrated burst in (how it should be).

The 50 cals obliterate the Japanese planes and are good for the German fighers also.

Th last few times I used them they felt almost overpowered.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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F19_Ob
11-11-2006, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:


......my convergence is now 250 on the cannon and 300 on the machine guns, and that absolutely obliterates anything in it's field of spray.

Just bubbling with happiness at the moment that the P-47 I have hated since the patches, was all down to me and my convergence...I'M BACK!!! WAHAY! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


What u actually did was to increase your killingfield with two leathal points, 4 guns each, 50m apart.
This is very effective when u close in fast, like on a BnZ attack when the convergence point is passed quickly. You now have two.


Setting convergence to 100m is really only good at just 100m, but after that the ammo will quickly spread and that convergence is quite useless at 250-300m.

Convergence set to 250m gives a good pattern at 500m aswell.
With this convergence U also have a little room to correct aim in a high-speed BnZ attack. At 100m there is no chance to correct aim on an evading enemy, unless U fly slow. U wouldn't want to do that in a jug.

500m is really the longest range one wants to shoot with 50's and most really don't seem to train for that range.

A suggestion could be to set the convergence down to 200 and 250 instead.
But I can't recomend going under 200.
Note that I don't critisize setting it to 100m.
The only problem is that it limits shooting opportunities at longer ranges than 200m.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Mysticpuma2003
11-13-2006, 01:49 AM
OK, last night on Warclouds.

Same convergence as original post above 250 and 300.

Damaged 2x109 and 3x190's and also saved Brain32 over homebase by taking 109 off his 6 (one of the above 109's)

Shot down 2x109 and 2x Ju-88 +2AA Destroyed.

All the above in 2 sorties, one of which I was hit and badly damaged, managed to bail, but even though I was floating very slowly was killed when I landed on a slope http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Still, this is the best two days of flying I have had in months, so very, very pleased with new convergence.

BTW TS is essential!

P-47 and .50's now....ROCK! lol.

Cheers, MP.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.aqqm31.dsl.pipex.com/Mysticpuma.jpg

BillyTheKid_22
11-13-2006, 01:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif wow!!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brain32
11-13-2006, 04:43 AM
I use both(MG+Cannon) at 300m for ages now and it works like a charm also. Last night I made 9kills with .50's and that convergence(3 with P47 and 6 with P51). Nothing wrong with them for people that know how to shoot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BTW, thx for the save last night Mystic, I was already 3mins in the overheat zone when you removed him from my 6<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Mysticpuma2003
11-13-2006, 05:21 AM
Funniest thing was when he complained about you using your nav lights to call for help...I nearly choked on my Whisky!

I actually thought you were messing around because I didn't see him (he was about 6-700 metres off you, but it was a nice head on attack.

Ahhh the P-47...I'm in love all over again!

Cheers, MP.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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anarchy52
11-13-2006, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
and its weak DM,and the glass block double wasp,and the fact doras out dive it with ease.

Weak DM you say? Glass engine?

http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/head-on.avi (http://marvin.kset.org/%7Eriddler/head-on.avi)

Or the fact it outturns FW-190A?

TgD Thunderbolt56
11-13-2006, 06:03 AM
350m-400m for my convergence. Kept it there for a loooong time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Viper2005_
11-13-2006, 06:58 AM
In my experience if you hit with the .50s, they knock aeroplanes down quite effectively.

I reckon about 90% of the whine is simply the result of poor gunnery. As has already been mentioned, shooting at anything more than double convergence range is a waste of ammunition.

Unless you're bang on convergence, shooting when you're out of plane with your target is often a waste of ammunition.

It is undeniably harder to make effective use of widely spaced guns because these issues assume greater importance.

But that added difficulty not the gun's fault. It's the aeroplane's fault. Of course, missing is always the pilot's fault...

I recently shot a 109G2 down on one of the 43 maps using a P-51C. No dramatic fires or explosions, but dead is dead. A quick review of my stats reveals an almighty 4% gunstat. It's really quite amazing that I was able to kill anything before I ran out of ammunition considering that 96% of my firepower was wasted on thin air...

Ernst_Rohr
11-13-2006, 08:17 AM
I agree Viper, gunstat is always interesting to see what a bad shot you really are. I was looking at mine the other night, after having a GOOD night and getting several kills, and my stat was 11%! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

Congrats on the success in the 47 though, I STILL cant seem to get the hang of the 47. Everytime I take a 47 up online, I get clubbed like a baby seal, despite the fact that I do pretty well in other B&Z planes.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Copperhead310th
11-13-2006, 05:29 PM
ok here's a really really stupid quiestion. and after 5 freaking years you'ld think i should know this ......but for some reason i don't, or have out right forgotten. How do you tell when your at you proper convergence? My current set for the p-47 is the same thing i've used for years now.....200/225. So, on a server like Warclouds, (my preferd settings) what will give you your convergence? how do you judge the distance properly?
Some one got a screenie might help me a little. pictures worth 1000 words and all.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Viper2005_
11-13-2006, 05:42 PM
Fly offline with icons on.

Note the size of various types of enemy a/c in your gunsight at your desired convergence range & commit the sight picture to memory.

Now when you take the icons away again all you've got to do is replicate that sight picture and you're at convergence range.

BillyTheKid_22
11-13-2006, 06:25 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Lol!! <span class="ev_code_RED">P-47</span><div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Brain32
11-13-2006, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
ok here's a really really stupid quiestion. and after 5 freaking years you'ld think i should know this ......but for some reason i don't, or have out right forgotten. How do you tell when your at you proper convergence? My current set for the p-47 is the same thing i've used for years now.....200/225. So, on a server like Warclouds, (my preferd settings) what will give you your convergence? how do you judge the distance properly?
Some one got a screenie might help me a little. pictures worth 1000 words and all.

Here is how I did it:
I took various planes(depending on gun type) and did a few QMB's without paying attention to the icons, I just opened fire instinctively, I recorded every single one of them and watched the tracks, this time paying close attention to average range at which I open fire and that's it.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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WWMaxGunz
11-13-2006, 06:43 PM
Consider that almost all the WWII fighters had very close to 10m wingspan. Long list.
We have had one sight that would fill on FW wings at 100m and that was corrected to 200m.
I forget the plane, or even if it was IL2 or IL2:FB.
Most every sight ring in game I know is 10m wide at 200m.

WRT convergence I think that farther is better.
How far apart are the guns, when all the shots are in a circle 1 meter wide (width of 109
fuselage) is best range and will be centered at convergence. Whatever range convergence is,
divide that by meters apart the guns are and that many meters plus and minus convergence range
is all inside 1 meter circle. Call it kill zone? It starts and ends out front of you.
Now if I shorten the convergence I am shortening the best firing range.

If I am BnZ or strafing then how wide that kill zone is is even more critical. I am not going
to be sitting at ideal range and trying to fill his tail with holes. If I am 200kph faster
then I am going to pass through that range zone at 55m/s. Some wing guns are IIRC 9m apart,
the zone is only + and - 11% of convergence. Convergence 200m then zone would be 178m to 222m.
Firing window best shots is less than 1 second with convergence 200m and delta-V 200kph.
Setting convergence to 300m would widen the zone, 267m to 333m, 50% wider. Just... fire when
the target is 'long' since by relative motion it is approaching you, by the time the bullets
hit it is closer already so fire when the closing target as if it is 5+ meters closer than it
is. How far is 5+ depends on how fast you are closing and how far the shooting since if the
target is close the bullets hit very, very quickly. Multiply the fraction of a second to hit
by the rate of closure and you have your lead distance.

If I am turnfighting or otherwise saddling up for the kill then I can afford a shorter zone to
give me closer aim and harder hits. You want the simple gunnery solution, set convergence and
park behind the target at that range as best you can while firing when you line up.

WTE_Galway
11-13-2006, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
I reckon about 90% of the whine is simply the result of poor gunnery.

Among other things.

You get a similiar whine about the early war .303 calibre brownings which when used properly can be more effective than the slow ROF cannon in the Emil.

Lets analyse this one .. the Emil cannon works better when parked on the 6 of a target "new player" style and you sit there for less time so take less defence fire from the bomber guns.

Overall, flying a good attack pattern and make multiple safe passes from sides above and below at the same target the .303 is better .. yet the .303 has a reputation of being "porked".

Anyone see a pattern here ?

tigertalon
11-13-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Overall, flying a good attack pattern and make multiple safe passes from sides above and below at the same target the .303 is better .. yet the .303 has a reputation of being "porked".

Anyone see a pattern here ?

Peter Townsend in his book ('Duel of eagles') claims that an experienced Hurricane pilot could cripple two He111s in a single pass.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

<span class="ev_code_BLACK"><pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">?In the size of the lie there is always contained a certain factor of credibility,

Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 11:31 AM
Remember that you have a HUGE advanatage with the .50's compared to cannon armed planes, and thats much easier deflection shooting.

You can actually SEE the enemy when you pull a high deflection shot, rather than having to guess like you do with cannon armed planes (the enemy is behind your engine).

Remember that you only need about 1/2 of the deflection that you do for a 20mm cannon if not even less. I found myself leading the target far too much when I first started using the 50's. The 'Ace Maker' Gyro gunsight on the P51 D20NA is a good way to show yourself just how much deflection you need. I was surprised at how little I needed even for enemies in quite hard turns.

I think my convergeance is at about 300m. That gives an effective range of about 150-500m before the bullets are too far apart to be on target. Remember that even closer than 150m (with my convergeance) it is likely that most of the bullets will be going under and over his wings if you are aiming at the fueselage http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Copperhead310th
11-14-2006, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Overall, flying a good attack pattern and make multiple safe passes from sides above and below at the same target the .303 is better .. yet the .303 has a reputation of being "porked".

Anyone see a pattern here ?

Peter Townsend in his book ('Duel of eagles') claims that an experienced Hurricane pilot could cripple two He111s in a single pass. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Peter Townsend!?! Insn't that the guitar player for "The Who" that's always dropping his axe on stage? lol rolf what the bloody hell doese he know about Hurri's? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Copperhead310th
11-14-2006, 07:23 PM
ok lets take icons for instance.

Here is my target:

<span class="ev_code_RED">x</span>

now my taret will always have a set of numbers indicating the distance. for example: my target <span class="ev_code_RED">x</span> 1.06 away from me. now explain what the hell 1.06 is? this has been bothering me for a while. and has hinderd my gunnery practice considerably. i can teach my self the convergance range and visually remember the size of the target in my sight, but i first need a gauge to tell me the range/distance to target. after i have that commited to memeory. no sweat.
So what are the icon numbers mean. I'm assuming that they're in meter. would 1.06 mean 160 meeters that's they way i've always belived it to work. like i said after 5 years now,i should know this.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/ubisig.jpg
Former CO of 310thVFS, (Retired) now part time
190 jock & full time target drone for JG27
http://premium1.uploadit.org/bsamania//2006-02-23_012924_pilot11.gif Flying on line as JG27_Copperhead

|^^^^^^^^^^^^|
| JG27_Copperhead | '|""";.., ___.
|_..._...______===|= _|__|..., ] |
"(@ )'(@ )""""*|(@ )(@ )*****(@
"Keep on Truck'n!"

Xiolablu3
11-14-2006, 08:37 PM
1.06 will be 1060 metres.

0.50 will be 500 metres

0.10 will be 100 metres.

Thats how I always understood it anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
11-14-2006, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
1.06 will be 1060 metres.

0.50 will be 500 metres

0.10 will be 100 metres.

Thats how I always understood it anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
See...metric is so easy.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

dieg777
11-15-2006, 03:30 AM
Your gunsight ring will typically show a fighter at 100m distance ( icon 0.10) when the wingspan of the bandit touches both sides of the ring
the bandit will be 200m away (icon 0.2) when the wingspan of the bandit touches the edge of the ring and the pipper or centre of cross.

good refrence found here

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Horrido.doc

for REVI gunsight

and

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20u...Gunnery%20School.zip (http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20up%20RAF%20Gunnery%20School.zip)

for raf<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/dieg777/mutley.jpg

Are you confused,lost and alone ? Dont Worry
Airwarfare is your friend
http://www.airwarfare.com
http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/config_guide.htm

Ratsack
11-15-2006, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by BillyTheKid_22:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Lol!! <span class="ev_code_RED">P-47</span>

You know that white box on the reply page? You know, the one underneath the emoticon icon? Yeah, that big white thing. THAT one. Yeah, well, I'll tell you a secret 'bout that...

...are you ready?

...you can WRITE stuff in it. You know? Stuff, with WERDS.

Just a quick WERD to letcha know, y'know?

cheers,
Ratsack

mynameisroland
11-15-2006, 06:16 AM
I use 250 m convergence and scored 26 kills online yesterday evening using first the Hellcat F6F5 against Late Zeros, Ki 61s and those huge Flyingboats armed with 20mms then I flew F4F3 against Bf 109 F4s and Bf 110 G2s. I died 3 times ( we count bailing over enemy territory a death ) once by AI gunner who sawed my wing off and twice in F4F3 fighting against 4 or 5 Bf 109 F4s over their lines. Accuracy was 9%. Still the .50s were chewing up planes left right and centre.

Thats quicker killing than if Id been using Fw 190.

For P47 400m is good but for Mustang and the Cats 250 m is better because you can afford to hand with the target more and close in. In Jug you want to fire far away at at target in a high speed pass.

WWMaxGunz
11-15-2006, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by dieg777:
Your gunsight ring will typically show a fighter at 100m distance ( icon 0.10) when the wingspan of the bandit touches both sides of the ring
the bandit will be 200m away (icon 0.2) when the wingspan of the bandit touches the edge of the ring and the pipper or centre of cross.

good refrence found here

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Horrido.doc

for REVI gunsight

and

http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20u...Gunnery%20School.zip (http://home.austin.rr.com/jg13/fw190gunnery/Cleaned%20up%20RAF%20Gunnery%20School.zip)

for raf

Last time I for certain checked the 190, my mates wings willed the ring at 200m.
I did that to find the angle the ring subtends and had to be very sure of my results,
it was for/during the threads asking to move 'the bar' and ways to find what angle
the cutoff from it is as opposed to docs we were shown giving 3.3 degrees.

Have a check next time you're up and not #1. I am wondering what planes may have rings
set to different ranges, unless there's an adjustable sight I haven't messed with?

WWMaxGunz
11-15-2006, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
ok lets take icons for instance.

Here is my target:

<span class="ev_code_RED">x</span>

now my taret will always have a set of numbers indicating the distance. for example: my target <span class="ev_code_RED">x</span> 1.06 away from me. now explain what the hell 1.06 is? this has been bothering me for a while. and has hinderd my gunnery practice considerably. i can teach my self the convergance range and visually remember the size of the target in my sight, but i first need a gauge to tell me the range/distance to target. after i have that commited to memeory. no sweat.
So what are the icon numbers mean. I'm assuming that they're in meter. would 1.06 mean 160 meeters that's they way i've always belived it to work. like i said after 5 years now,i should know this.

For five years you used icons and did not know the range is in kilometers?
For five years you had no idea half of what the ring is for, only put the pipper on target?

Other half of what the ring is for is to measure angle for deflection shooting, but you still
need to know about the ring/plane size thing to work that properly.

Do you understand about that little ball in the curved tube on the instrument panel and in
P-51's there's one at the base of the gunsight, what it has to do with your shooting?