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View Full Version : Bf109 throttle chop is WRONG.



XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:00 AM
The 109 can chop it's power, stop in midair, and regain all lost energy within seconds. Previously only the G2 and older models could pull this bogus feat.

Now, everything up to the K4 can do it.

Please fix this BUG.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 11:00 AM
The 109 can chop it's power, stop in midair, and regain all lost energy within seconds. Previously only the G2 and older models could pull this bogus feat.

Now, everything up to the K4 can do it.

Please fix this BUG.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 02:04 PM
What is the bug? Formulate a test procedure, make a track and tell us what exactly you think is wrong with the FM. Chopping power is a bug? Stopping in midair is a bug? Gain speed in seconds is a bug?

What about all the other planes in the sim, do they suffer from this bug too? Or is 109 the only plane that can do these things (though I already know a Yak3 will decelerate quicker from cutting throttle than 109G2, so maybe it is just the stopping or the acceleration that you consider bugged)?

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:00 PM
Hard to set up any kind of test Fillmore. My comment is based on online dogfighting experience, and lots of it. Just good old fashioned field testing.

Over and over me (and my much better squadmates) watch as these 109 rascals go from being fully defensive >chop throttle< do a quick barrel, nail the throttle and be climbing up your 6.

Now, if they do this and I overshoot them, fine. They might even get a few shots off at me. But the fact that there is no penalty for cutting all power is ludicrous. In the old IL2 days, you could cut power as a last ditch effort, but you were a sitting duck until you got your speed back up.

So, maybe both the throttle chop AND acceleration are bugs/wrong. Pretty arcadish in my opinion.

Anyway, thanks for the reply and good day Fillmore.

S!



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:04 PM
We need a track - one of the functions of a barrel roll is to get from your opponent's 12 to 6 - without loosing E.





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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:20 PM
GR142_Astro wrote:
- Hard to set up any kind of test Fillmore. My comment
- is based on online dogfighting experience, and lots
- of it. Just good old fashioned field testing.
-
- Over and over me (and my much better squadmates)
- watch as these 109 rascals go from being fully
- defensive >chop throttle< do a quick barrel, nail
- the throttle and be climbing up your 6.
-
- Now, if they do this and I overshoot them, fine.
- They might even get a few shots off at me. But the
- fact that there is no penalty for cutting all power
- is ludicrous. In the old IL2 days, you could cut
- power as a last ditch effort, but you were a sitting
- duck until you got your speed back up.
-
- So, maybe both the throttle chop AND acceleration
- are bugs/wrong. Pretty arcadish in my opinion.
-
- Anyway, thanks for the reply and good day Fillmore.
-
- S!
-

When you use vvs planes you need to reduce prop pitch to loose E(Engine trys to maintain rpm constant speed prop)this works surely faster on BF or FWs as the Autosetting allows to set pitch and chop throttle at the same time . Also Rollrate at high speed of La7 or something isnt that good .
So i dont see a bug here maybe small E problem(when at all) but Oleg pointed already out that the Speed keeping is correct on vvs Planes in your own thread a while back . Plz support your findings with Historical documents or show proof that can surely be seen as not possible IRL.

Regards,
Hyperion


-
-
- "We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:21 PM
This is the second time you brought this issue up.

The last discussion brought up some interesting points, but as I recall none of them were from you. Same thing's happening here in this thread again.

For a claimed 'field testing', I don't see much numbers around, nor any kind of objective testing method posted, nor any track file to look over, for that matter.

As it is, I'm sorry to say, all I see is someone who's pretty much pi*sed with how some planes can deccelerate with a touch of a throttle.

But the funnier part of this is, VVS planes decellerate at almost the same rate if you duplicate what's happening to the 109s, with the VVS fighters.

Please, do a test. Post a track. Record some numbers, so we may see how exactly, what, is wrong. Instead of repeating the same thing over and over again without any numerical data we can go over.





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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:21 PM
Astro, I can assure you there is no magic acceleration in 109's. If the pilot cuts throttle, then speed is lost just like in ALL planes, but the 109's (ALL models) do not accelerate back to full speed in seconds.

I think some basic review of your ACM is required if the scenario you describe keeps happening to you.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 03:27 PM
"Astro, I can assure you there is no magic acceleration in 109's. If the pilot cuts throttle, then speed is lost just like in ALL planes, but the 109's (ALL models) do not accelerate back to full speed in seconds."

Exactly.

You can also test this with take-off runs. Remember how people used to complain that VVS planes take off with only 50~60% throttle, but German ones accelerate real slow even with full throttle?

Same thing. Getting the revolutions back up takes up even more time in German planes, than compared to VVS planes(since VVS planes don't cut down the revolution at all). I distinctly remember some people questioning Oleg about this - they complained that the RPM recovery after chopping throttle and engaging it again was too slow. Oleg answered that the auto system was that much slower, and people understood that.







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Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

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Message Edited on 11/10/0311:30PM by kweassa

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:01 PM
"Over and over me (and my much better squadmates) watch as these 109 rascals go from being fully defensive >chop throttle< do a quick barrel, nail the throttle and be climbing up your 6."

Ahh. see this is what I thought, and what I suggested needed to be tested in the thread that Pipper made.

You put your "><"'s in the wrong place I think.

How about you write:

"Over and over me (and my much better squadmates) watch as these 109 rascals go from being fully defensive chop throttle >do a quick barrel<, nail the throttle and be climbing up your 6."

And then post that the Bf109 E-bleed is wrong. Or that the chase planes' (LA and Yaks I presume) E-bleeds are wrong.

There are three things here to be tested, and procedures to test each individually.

-Effect of chopping throttle on speed. Test by chopping throttle from same speed in level flight with different planes. This was tested and found that Yak3 actually lost speed slightly quicker than 109G2, but that basically all planes were similar and none significantly different (Yak3 took 30seconds before it was decelerating more than 109).

-Effect of barrel roll on speed. This is what I suggested to Pipper - do your online scissors testing, but without cutting throttle or using flaps or anything. Just do the barrel rolls starting at the same speed and keeping throttle open (or closed, or different settings as long as the setting isn't changed). Maybe find throttle settings where both planes have the same max speeds, start from equal speeds with 109 in front, turn on wingsmoke follow the manuever exactly in the Yak3. My guess is the Yak will shoot right through the 109.

-Effect of nailing the throttle. Test this as per chopping the throttle, but the other way.

Personally I think the second test will show that a barrel rolling 109 will lose more speed than a Yak3, and in particular will lose the speed especially at the beginning.

Also the "nail the throttle and be climbing up your 6." part indicates an error in your choice of ACM. When you see an enemy, that you know can decelerate faster than you, go into his E-bleed chicken dance your pullup must be while you are still well behind him, not as you are spit out. Once he gets behind (or even a bit before given that he is slower) your 3-9 line then you are on the defensive and the correct move is unload and extend.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:29 PM
People don't know how to complain about this game. First it's not, 109 throttle chop is wrong. I'm sure you've probably never flown a real 109 and therefore would not know how quickly it decelerates. Second, and more important, it's "The game's 109 seems to decelerate and accerlerate to quickly compared to the other aircraft in the gane" Not saying I agree with you...but there you have it. The real flight models of the planes are of little importance in an online dogfight, it's simply the sim's FM's cmopared to on another that matter.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 04:58 PM
"Also the "nail the throttle and be climbing up your 6." part indicates an error in your choice of ACM. When you see an enemy, that you know can decelerate faster than you, go into his E-bleed chicken dance your pullup must be while you are still well behind him, not as you are spit out. Once he gets behind (or even a bit before given that he is slower) your 3-9 line then you are on the defensive and the correct move is unload and extend"

Good point.

Also, better opponents will excute a wider radius of barrel roll, and may not chop the throttle at all. Basically, one plane is approaching from the behind fast, and going straight, while the other is slower and also travelling a longer path.

Also, the faster a plane travels, the bigger the negative impact of abrupt vertical transition. The E states may be equalled out between two planes, much earlier than one might anticipate.

As overshoot is imminent and unrecoverable, the defender accelerates and prepares to follow, while the guy who just overshot, in panic suddenly pulls up - depending on circumstances, there's a high possibility the tables may be turned seriously, especially if the attacker previously tried to slow down to avoid overshoot, but failed.

A lot of factors remain in the fogs, and may be checked only through a track recording.

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XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 05:25 PM
Dunno about this, Astro. Chopping the throttle to force an overshoot is a perfectly legitimate tactic (i know you're not disputing this) but i've found no 109 that accelerates in the manner you've described. In fact of all the aircraft in FB the 109 series seems to me to be the one of the most lethargic in acceleration stakes.

I'll stick my neck out and say if this is happening it's simply a situation thing.....

Someone on my tail - i manouver and cut throttle. Attacker draws closer and either cuts throttle in an attempt to stay behind or keeps power down and extends slightly for a better position. If he opts to cut his throttle but leaves it a little late he overshoots. It's a common mistake to forget momentarily their throttle setting and try manouvering their way out of trouble - thus allowing me to start gaining on them - when they should hit full power and try and reverse the reversal, so to speak.



Lixma,

Blitzpig.

XyZspineZyX
11-10-2003, 07:10 PM
LMFAO

Don't come into ORR crying because a 109K keeps getting the best of your Yak3 or La7.

Last nite you (la7) and Pipper (yak3) against myself in a 109K4 on the deck (no icons, cockpit on, no speedbar) and you died and he ran home.

Better for you to learn ACM.

S!

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