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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:07 PM
I never saw a warsimulation trying to make such a campaign !
I think It is an interesting battle , with many good planes , and many engagement , and losses ... all what needed to make an interesting game ! (original moreover)

I have too a question , over the game , cuz I don't understand why planes did not explode when they touch the ground !
in some sims , It's each time an explosion , not really realistic , but with IL-é , we can touch ground , and fligh again ! the propellor must be dead !!??
many times , we broke a wing , but the engine is still running , and the plane run on the ground ????
Is this realistic !!!
I though It would be solved by patches , but I now have all of them !!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:07 PM
I never saw a warsimulation trying to make such a campaign !
I think It is an interesting battle , with many good planes , and many engagement , and losses ... all what needed to make an interesting game ! (original moreover)

I have too a question , over the game , cuz I don't understand why planes did not explode when they touch the ground !
in some sims , It's each time an explosion , not really realistic , but with IL-é , we can touch ground , and fligh again ! the propellor must be dead !!??
many times , we broke a wing , but the engine is still running , and the plane run on the ground ????
Is this realistic !!!
I though It would be solved by patches , but I now have all of them !!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 01:58 PM
I'm hoping that the new sim they are working on, which is based around the Battle of Britain would also be able to include the Battle of France. I'd say it'd be a natural extension...essentially the same planes plus whatever the French airforce had at the time (this I have little knowledge of).

Planes do explode, with big giant bursts of fire and shockwaves when they hit the ground! The only times you don't explode right away is when you belly land the plane in which case you are either very lucky and the plane stays together (minus the propeller which gets bent out of shape) or you are not as lucky and the plane breaks off wings and the tail or flips over and kills the pilot outright.

So I'm not sure if we're describing 2 completely different games or not but I know for sure that I'm EXTREMELY happy with the amounts of pyrotechnics provided when planes hit the ground.

http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/icefire/icefire_tempest.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 02:33 PM
battle of france

fighters :

Morane MS406
Bloch MB152
Curtiss H75
Dewoitine 520

heavy fighters, tactical bombers :

Potez 630 series
Breguet 690 series

medium bombers

Bloch 174
Leo 451
Amiot 143
Martin DB7

this is only a part of french planes of battle of france, but i think it is the most representative part. those planes were the most numerous and saw much action during this campaign.

you can add the caudron renault 714 C1 to fighters if polish are to play a major part in your battle of france (and they did). The GC I/145, exclusively composed of polish pilots, were using it along with some Morane MS406. As far as i know, nobody else used that light fighter.

A lot of Czec pilots were fighting as well with French Armée de l'air, using mostly Morane MS406 and Bloch MB150 series.

Currently in FB, we have the Morane MS406, and the Curtiss H75 is announced with the pay add-on.

Some modellers are working on Potez 630, Breguet 690 and Leo 451, and the D520 is rumored to be in Oleg hands (but i'm not sure).

<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:46 PM
Did the French even fight. I am not spending 59.99 on a new game so i can sit across a table from a Nazi and do whatever he says.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:20 PM
Adlerangriff wrote:
- Did the French even fight. I am not spending 59.99
- on a new game so i can sit across a table from a
- Nazi and do whatever he says.


C'mon!!! Go home and read some WWII history.

GATO_LOCO

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:26 PM
no, they didn't fight... The germans lost more than a thousand plane during battle of france because of accidents...

But of course, it was no accident if french lost half that number of planes, germans destroyed them...

What will you say after, that polish, belgian, Czecs, and nederlands pilots didn't fight?

They lost, yes, but they did fight. As was said, you should learn more about ww2 history.



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:42 PM
http://www.vvs-regia-avions.com/avionsindex.html

Heres a place with many cool pics of French warbirds
Im not very fond myself of French aircrafts but it sure would be sure to shoot em down in a sim! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

__________________

THIS is the graph:

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/Luftcaca.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:55 PM
I think that would be are very small Add on hehehehe
How long did our forces need to conquer france? Three weeks ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:19 PM
and how long did france occupy your country pre and post WWII,25 years ?

what a funny debate....

cp22 wrote:
- I think that would be are very small Add on hehehehe
- How long did our forces need to conquer france?
- Three weeks ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:32 PM
yupp ,france did it alone, there was just a bit help from the US forces.and some british too. but these were not needed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

PB0_Roll wrote:
- and how long did france occupy your country pre and
- post WWII,25 years ?
-
- what a funny debate....
-
- cp22 wrote:
-- I think that would be are very small Add on hehehehe
-- How long did our forces need to conquer france?
-- Three weeks ? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
--
--
-
-
-
-
-



http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:53 PM
Yeees Pbo , you are right. I forgot Napoleon. lol

But I can't remember only one war between germany and france where france was the winner (without the help of the usa, england, russia ...)

After we lost the battles, the Allies give you some parts of germany lol. Yes france is the biggest war winner of this planet. hahahahaha Conquering nations without doing somthing....but wait, a little bit terrorism by the resistance (I forgot that, sorry)

Sorry, but I think the victorys of france in WW2 is a book without pages /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:14 AM
Never saw a sim that represented 1940 Battle of France?

Look here:

www.wwiionline.com (http://www.wwiionline.com)

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:52 AM
well history tells that german victory in WWII is also a book without pages...except the one you may write yourself.

despite of numerous allies,such as Hungary,Italy,Japan,Slovakia,Rumania,Croatia,Irak. ..

you've been fooled with the armistice /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:57 AM
since i can't edit,just a little addition:

we're getting very OT there,so it's my last post on this thread,you can have the last word cp22,and keep your dreams of failed conquest.

when you'll wake up,try to be a bit more constructive,Europe needs it badly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:57 AM
cp22 wrote:

_How long did our forces need to conquer france? Three _weeks ?

_....but wait, a little bit terrorism by the resistance (I _forgot that, sorry)

A question to UBI moderators: is this forum supposed to accept this kind of nazi nostalgia?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:08 AM
Grow up people.

Yes France fell easily, yes Germany lost the war and yes it was not just the Americans that helped bring about the defeat of Germany.

Get over it.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:54 AM
Let's go back to flight simulation :
The Battle of France is interesting because :
- For the German, it is an opportunity to add a campaign for a complete war campaign
- For the allies, British, French, Polish, and Czech, it is interesting because it is a good source of desperate and difficult missions and also for larger war campaigns (Polish pilot starting over Poland in a PZL, then Caudron or Bloch or Morane ...).

Of course, it would be extremely interesting if included in Oleg's Bob.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:20 AM
I'm sad to see that my post had become a "battle" between people !
I'm sad to see too , that people don't know what have been the Battle Of France , cuz some specialist used to say that the BoB wouldn't have been won by British , If the Luftwaffe hadn't loose planes in Battle of france !
I think It is a good campaign , with good planes !!! really ! and It's true there were some polish and schz pilots !
At those who say that France didn't fight during September 1940 , I would say "what do the RAF was doing" ??? and the UK army !! But I understand that they wouldn't engage all they forces , and try to save themselves first !

What is done is done , and you shouldn't hate France , or Germany , or UK or USA cuz of WWII !!!
I think that the pilots of all countries were like knights !
they used to respect the ennemy ! and accept the defeat when someone were greater than them ! (for most of those I know !) (maybe Hans Joachim Marseille was one of the alone hunter , rebelious and who used to attack first , with many precipitation)

So the plane list made in this post is a good resume I think !

here's a list of all French planes I know :
Fighters :
- MS-406
- Dewoitine D520
- Curtiss HAWK 75A
- Marcel-Bloch MB-150/151/152/155/157
- Roussel 30
- Arsenal VG-33
- Caudron C-714
- Loire Nieuport 401

medium bombers :
- Breguet 690/693/695
- Potez 63.11
- Potez 630/631
- Marcel-Bloch MB-174/175

Bombers :
- Amiot 143
- Amiot 351/354
- Potez 540
- Leo 451
- Douglas DB-7
- Farman 222
- Marcel Bloch MB-200
- Marcel Bloch MB-210

and some others prototypes , (se-100 ...) and hydravions ...



In the same time , I think the reggia aeronautica own wonderfull planes !!! (the MC 202 may be as pretty as D520)
and the Battle of Alpes saw French planes attacked by Italians ones !!
- Martin 167F

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:05 AM
Agree as for Norwey but they don't have time now.

But i think there are some "strategic" fighters we could have:
- Spitfire MK I,II (BoB, MED)
- D 520 (BoF, MED)
- MC 200/202 (MED, FB)
- Corsair/Wildcat (PACIFIC)

With these aircrafts, at least, we could simulate many possible theaters......i mean.
Maps are not a problem, when you fly there are not name on......with some fantasy we could make all we wuold like have.

http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:21 AM
Something everyone here seems to be forgetting is the number of RAF hurricanes and battles that went over to france as part of the BEF, the battle of france featured a fair number of british efforts.


http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/snake.jpg



IL2 : http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/il2
CS : http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/cs

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:30 AM
The propeller isn't destructable only with some of easy (arcade) settings.

Set for example Normal and try.


Frenchminem wrote:
- I never saw a warsimulation trying to make such a
- campaign !
- I think It is an interesting battle , with many good
- planes , and many engagement , and losses ... all
- what needed to make an interesting game ! (original
- moreover)
-
- I have too a question , over the game , cuz I don't
- understand why planes did not explode when they
- touch the ground !
- in some sims , It's each time an explosion , not
- really realistic , but with IL-é , we can touch
- ground , and fligh again ! the propellor must be
- dead !!??
- many times , we broke a wing , but the engine is
- still running , and the plane run on the ground ????
- Is this realistic !!!
- I though It would be solved by patches , but I now
- have all of them !!!!
-
-



Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:48 AM
AH_Solid_Snake wrote:
- Something everyone here seems to be forgetting is
- the number of RAF hurricanes and battles that went
- over to france as part of the BEF, the battle of
- france featured a fair number of british efforts.


No my friend we know, we know but we just have Hurricane in FB; we have also Emil and Fiat G 50 (soon). With a D 520, a competitive and very nice french fighter we could have dog fight in BoF. Also french pilots fought in Battle of France.......i think.

That it.

http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:57 AM
Although none of their squadrons participated in BOB, (although the brave Free French in the RAF may count) you could consider putting them in with the Axis. Remember the Vichy French Government did their bit for the war effort.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:14 PM
JG77_Tintin wrote:
- Although none of their squadrons participated in
- BOB, (although the brave Free French in the RAF may
- count) you could consider putting them in with the
- Axis. Remember the Vichy French Government did their
- bit for the war effort.
-
-


Well said, because of this wuold be great have D 520 in FB. For my opinion onother "must" in FB.

I hope in Avirex or some other guy of the french community.

We have romanians IAR 80, soon i hope also some Italian competitive fighters, we'll have Spitfire (also Mk I-II ???).....we need at least one french competitive fighter.

Avirex where are you???

http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:29 PM
avirex is working on the Bf110 cockpit /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Maybe Bluestone could finish its potez 630, it was by far the most numerous modern combat aircraft in service with armée de l'air in 1940. But he is also working on the curtiss H75, can't do everything at the same time.

A MS406 cockpit would be fine too, we already have the external model.



<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

Message Edited on 10/24/0311:30AM by Hoarmurath

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:13 PM
Bump and Stump for the Battle of France and Poland in BoB! http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/ylflower.gif



think of the Henschel Hs~123 biplane ground attackhttp://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/Media/Hs123a.gif
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:21 PM
Hoarmurath wrote:
- avirex is working on the Bf110 cockpit /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
-
- Maybe Bluestone could finish its potez 630, it was
- by far the most numerous modern combat aircraft in
- service with armée de l'air in 1940. But he is also
- working on the curtiss H75, can't do everything at
- the same time.
-
- A MS406 cockpit would be fine too, we already have
- the external model.


I know and i can wait to much again for his marvellous Bf 110! Avirex is great!

In spite of this one day i hope to see a french D 520, be sure the best and nicest fighter in BoF.
I've seen potez, it's very good.

Thank for the news!

Regards.

http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/mc202tav4.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:49 PM
Frenchminem wrote:

- here's a list of all French planes I know :
- Fighters :
- - MS-406
-
- - Dewoitine D520
-
- - Curtiss HAWK 75A
Those 3 planes represented the bulk of the French Air Force. If we had only these, it would be sufficient (and MS-406 and H75 are allready modelled... just badly need a cockpit)

- - Marcel-Bloch MB-150/151/152/155/157
-
- - Caudron C-714
Both Could be interesting, but less important than the 3 first. Caudron external is in dev by Hoamurath

- - Roussel 30
-
- - Arsenal VG-33
Both were prototype only, not needed in a battle of France

- - Loire Nieuport 401
????... it was a Dive Bomber for the French Navy, not a fighter... never saw real action, not needed for battle of France

- medium bombers :
- - Breguet 690/693/695
Only the 690 is really needed

- - Potez 63.11
-
- - Potez 630/631
The Potez is in development and really needed... but more for observation than bombing

- - Marcel-Bloch MB-174/175
-
-
- Bombers :
- - Amiot 143
-
- - Amiot 351/354
-
- - Potez 540
-
- - Leo 451
-
- - Douglas DB-7
-
- - Farman 222
-
- - Marcel Bloch MB-200
-
- - Marcel Bloch MB-210
On the bombers above, Amiot 143, Potez 540, Farman 222, MB200 and MB210 were already old and obsolette planes at war start. They saw very little action. So I think they aren't really needed (and would be nothing but targets in any case...)
Amiot 351/354 was a very good plane, but built in little numbers (173 in total) and late (too late)... would be nice but not totally necessary (only 2 were opperational before end of the battle of France)

Leo 451 and Douglas DB-7 "Boston" composed the bulk of the French Bombing, both are currently in development I think.

You forgot Glen Martin M167F, another US Bomber largelly used by the French, as the Boston.

- and some others prototypes , (se-100 ...) and
- hydravions ...
not needed

SI I think we would be happy (well... at least me...) with 7 planes.
- MS406
- H75
- D520
- Potez 63
- DB-7
- M167F
- Leo451

Except for the D520 and the M167F, the 5 others are curently either available or in dev for the external models.... but we badly need the pits... at least for the fighters.


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:14 PM
pegase_rama :
The Bloch 151/152 is very important for the Bof : 500 of them, if not more, were used by the French until June 1940

The Loire use can be compared in number of missions to the Breguet, and suffered tremendous losses, just as the Chance Vought bomber.
As to the Breguet bombers : the 690 never saw combat, only the 691 and 693, in more or less equal number (depends if you count in term of aircraft or missions).
The Amiot 143 was heavily used by the French Air Force, comparable with the Leo in term of number (though not in quality). It should be noted that the loss rate was surprisingly "not that high" for this aircraft.
The Amiot 350 serie (354 ...) made several reconnaissance missions, but very few bombing mission (if any).
THe MB-173 made a relatively high number of missions

Overall, for the whole campaign, the French Air Force had more than 1/3 of its total of irmen killed, not counting the prisonners and the heavily wounded.

Therefore, a list should of the significant aircraft of Bof should be :
MS406, H75, D520, Bloch 152, Potez 631, 633, 63-11, DB-7 (which is quite different from the A20 anyway), M167, Leo451, Breguet 691 or 3, Amiot 143.
Of those : the H75, Leo, Breguet, Potez 63 are under developpment, as well as the Caudron (good for the Polish).
The Morane is AI only, with no plan to be flyable. The status of the Dewoitine is unknown.
There is a very small hope for a DB-7.
As for the others, only a miracle in FB, but maybe in Bob ?

And of course, let's not forget the Fiat CR42 (Belgian + Italy), the Fiat Br20, the Fokker DXXI and GI, and sorry to those small by numbers, but not by courage, countries I forgot.

Last note :
The H75, Morane, D520, M167, Potez, LeO were used more or less heavily on both sides after June 1940 (Germany, Vichy France, Bulgaria, Italy, Finland, the Netherlands, Free French). The Bloch 151 was used by the Greek.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:50 PM
Excellent!

GunterAeroburst wrote:
http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/Luftcaca.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:56 PM
JG77_Tintin wrote:
- Although none of their squadrons participated in
- BOB, (although the brave Free French in the RAF may
- count) you could consider putting them in with the
- Axis. Remember the Vichy French Government did their
- bit for the war effort.

Nice nickname. Didn't Hergé collaborate with the nazis?

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:22 PM
jeanba wrote:
- pegase_rama :
- The Bloch 151/152 is very important for the Bof :
- 500 of them, if not more, were used by the French
- until June 1940
It is important only if you take in account the North-France theater (5 of 14 fighter Groups equipped totally or partially with Bloch MB151/MB152)
Much less if you focuss on the Eatern France theater (who saw the most actions and combats).. there was only 1 fighter group of 7 equipped with MB152, 3 equipped with MS406, 2 with H75 and one mixed MS406/H75)
Overall MB152, despite their numbers saw less action than MS406 or H75 (who was the most succesfull and used by the majority of French fighter aces)
so Yes, the MB152 would be nice... but less important than the MS406 or H75

At June 5th (end of the Bof), we had:
- no more MB151
- 8 fighter groups equipped with MB152 (152 planes total - 114 usable)
- 7 fighter groups equipped with MS406 (179 planes total - 136 usable)
But at this time a lot of MS406 fighter groups were allready changing plane... and the total amount of losses among the MS406 was enormous.
- 5 fighter groups equiped with H75 (135 planes total - 117 usable)
- 4 fighter groups equipied with D520 (68 planes total - 50 usable)
- 1 fighter group (polish) equiped with Caudron 714

So the D520 is the less important of all, in term of numbers of planes and battle action... but since it's the best French plane and only started to equip the French squadrons during the war... it would be a shame not to have it.

- The Loire use can be compared in number of missions
- to the Breguet, and suffered tremendous losses, just
- as the Chance Vought bomber.
Yep... that can be compared... very few missions and actions. The Breguet is important only because it's the only French real ground support plane.

- As to the Breguet bombers : the 690 never saw
- combat, only the 691 and 693, in more or less equal
- number (depends if you count in term of aircraft or
- missions).
Right on this... my bad...

- The Amiot 143 was heavily used by the French Air
- Force, comparable with the Leo in term of number
- (though not in quality). It should be noted that the
- loss rate was surprisingly "not that high" for this
- aircraft.
because quickly it was used mostly at night, without escort... and without much opposition at that time (night-fight wasn't really developpend
I don't think it would be very interesting to play unnoposed night bombing missions
Besides, only 138 Amiot 143 were built...and in 1938 it was decided to withdraw the plane from opperations. Because there was no available replacement, it stayed in opperation until end of Bof (77 remained at the end of the Bof)

- The Amiot 350 serie (354 ...) made several
- reconnaissance missions, but very few bombing
- mission (if any).
it did a few... but only 2 AC were opperational at war end
It wasn't an important plane as I said... but since it was a good performance bomber.... would be maybe nice to have

- THe MB-173 made a relatively high number of missions
???? I don't know any MB-173 and don't see any in the Air forces order of battle... I know a MB-174 (recon plane) and the MB-175 and MB-176 that were initially developped as light bombers. 23 MB-175 and 5 MB-176 were built, and they were only used in recon role.. never as bombers

- Overall, for the whole campaign, the French Air
- Force had more than 1/3 of its total of irmen
- killed, not counting the prisonners and the heavily
- wounded.
-
- Therefore, a list should of the significant aircraft
- of Bof should be :
- MS406, H75, D520, Bloch 152, Potez 631, 633, 63-11,
- DB-7 (which is quite different from the A20 anyway),
- M167, Leo451, Breguet 691 or 3, Amiot 143.
- Of those : the H75, Leo, Breguet, Potez 63 are under
- developpment, as well as the Caudron (good for the
- Polish).
So your list is close to mine, with the MB152, the Breguet 691/3 and the Amiot 143.
yes the MB152 would be nice to have.. but I still think the Bof can be done without, and without loosing much "feeling". Breguet 691 saw very few actions (but still would be nice to have) and the Amiot 143... could be leaved apart (and who would like to fly this sluggish plane at night anyway?)

I disagree for the DB-7 beiing quite different from the A20... at leat for the exterior modle they are very close (it's the same A/C anyway, A-20 is just a DB-7 upgrade). Sure the flight model would be different, but the external model of the A-20 would need a very few twicks to get the DB-7


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:19 PM
the amiot 143 is interesting as it is representative of obsolete bombers used during battle of France, and because they played a major part in one of the most dramatic actions of this campaign, the bombing of the Meuse bridges.

Yep, i forgot the glen martin. having it and the db7 as AI would be nice.

having every plane that saw action during battle of France would require much work, i think it is better to stick to most representatives ones.

And of course it would be interesting to have the cockpits of the fighters and light bombers, especially :

H75
MS406
D520
Potez630

it would allow for some interesting scenarios. And these planes were used by other countries after battle of France as well.


<center><img src=http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:39 PM
Pegase,

As to the MB-170 series, it is my mistake, it is the 174 that was used in combat.
As to the MB-152, its role was quite important in June 1940, especially over the Somme, and you must add the French Navy aircraft (did you read Joane's book ?)
As to the DB-7, you can refer to
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher4/a20.html
For instance :
The differences between the DB-7A and the A20C (the earliest planned version) were : armors, self sealing tanks, armament, the engines are very different, as well as the armament.

I agree you about the interest of rare aircraft such as the Amiot 350 serie and the like, but I think that it is up to us to get a copy of 3DSMAX, documentation, and skill to do them ...
As I have none of them, I often feel like a beggar toward other members of the community

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:16 PM
jeanba wrote:
- Pegase,
Rama please... Pegase is the name of my squad.. /i/smilies/16x16_man-happy.gif

- As to the MB-152, its role was quite important in
- June 1940, especially over the Somme, and you must
- add the French Navy aircraft (did you read Joane's
- book ?)
still less important IMHO than the MS406, H75 and D520... but no problems to have it, I would be very glad to have it as AI aircraft or even flyable.... but would be sad if we don't have any of the 3 first.

For the French Navy aircraft, no I'm neot very much interested in.

- For instance :
- The differences between the DB-7A and the A20C (the
- earliest planned version) were : armors, self
- sealing tanks, armament, the engines are very
- different, as well as the armament.
yep, and as I said, almost no exterior model differences.
self-sealing tanks is a DM change, other engines lead to FM differences. only the armament lead to small exterior model differences.
I also have some records of A20-A (Used in new-guinea by RAAF) and A20-B (used by USAAF in North-Africa in 1942)

- I agree you about the interest of rare aircraft such
- as the Amiot 350 serie and the like, but I think
- that it is up to us to get a copy of 3DSMAX,
- documentation, and skill to do them ...
- As I have none of them, I often feel like a beggar
- toward other members of the community
so do I... I have a lot of doc for French A/C but very few that can be used for modelling (even less for cockpits)... not even talking about DMs and FMs
all this is just a whish expression

Cheers


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:17 PM
I would love to see a French campaign. What makes Oleg's games special is his interest in and attention to aircraft and locations that have been ignored in other quality WWII flight sims. The Battle of France fits the bill perfectly, and offers a wide range of interesting, somewhat peculiar, and oddly beautiful aircraft to fly around and learn about.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:43 PM
The French in a War sim, Them enemy would get bored just flying around...lol/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif But if Oleg did it I would probably buy it nonetheless.
S~

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/articles/p-38_lightning/images/p-38_head_on.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:40 PM
it's amazing to see how much peoples that knows nothing about history can't resist posting stupid comments in this thread...
for the one that "suggested" to place the French air force on axis side.... he should know that the Vichy Air Force only fought Allies in Syria during a few weeks and a little (a few hours) in Marocco.
It can't be compared to the Battle of France that saw a lot of aerial combats


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:14 AM
Adlerangriff wrote:
- Did the French even fight.

About a quarter of a million french men and women
died under arms in WW2, in either the French
forces in 1939-40, the Resistance, or the Free
French forces 1940-45. Basically they made the
approximately same commitment in terms of numbers
killed whilst under arms to population size as
the UK did, and many more in civilian deaths.
The French fought, but didn't have the advantage
of the natural defence of the channel. I am grateful
we British did.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 12:14 AM
I agree.

I hope that, after BoB, add on or payed add on becomes available that ties in the pre BoB European conflicts. These are Spain,Poland,The BlitzKrieg and SitzKrieg incl the battle of France leading up to Dunkirk and the Channel war.

Many WW2 pilots saw action in all these theatres.

S!
Cirx

http://www.triplane.net/remlink/misfits_cirx.JPG

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 11:55 PM
Re: Nicolas10 comment about Herge. Excellent pickup and call. He was banned from working after the war and was only able to work again after he sold the publication rights. I read a bibliography on him a few years ago and this issue was debated. I personally think he was against the Nazis, but you can't really argue this with Hitlers mob in occupied Belgium. Just read "King Ottokars Sceptre", published in 1939 and you will notice that the arch villians name is "Mustler". It is a combination of two very prominent political Head of States names in Europe of the time. Also in regard to the comment about inclusion of the Vichy. I didn't mean to denigrate or stir up any bad feelings on this. As I hinted in my original note, any Vichy participation in BOB would be purely theoreticlal. Being an Australian, whose country's troops fought and died in Syria, I'm not totally ignorant of this area and am very well aware of the facts that you pointed out.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 07:51 PM
Rama,

In terms of documentation, I have Roanne's book on the MB-152, and I made a check.
There are very few detail missing to fully model a MB-152, including the cockpit and FM, and from memory, they can be completed relatively easily.
For the D520, actually, there is a good model existing for SDOE, and several for CFS2.
They can be completed as documentation is not that unfrequent (to bad the last aircraft crashed in 1986 !!!).
As to the Morane, I have seen a lot of documentation on the net, some of them being transfered to Oleg.

XyZspineZyX
10-26-2003, 11:02 PM
Dunkirk would be really nice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But a lone sim or expansion pack about the BoF wouldn't sell too much, i'm afraid

http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/reincarnation.jpg (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
Are you damned? (http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/damned/)
<

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 02:31 PM
Just to say at those who was speaking about the Vichy's Air Force !!!!
You need to know that France was fighting for herself , to seve what could be saved (the South of France and Magreb at least)(for some months...) , and obliged to cooperate .
But all countries have not been really nice , and goods , and clean ...and as told before , never fight many the allies (and some french too)
Why did British had attacked mers-El-Kibir ?? and Dakkar ,and lately Madagascar , wereas the rest of French navy had told she'd better sink herself is boat instead of givin' it to axis !!!
and with US bombers , did they was clean , when bombing French cities ... , killing so many people , for poor Germans units , alone in a whole crowded city !!!
And what about Italia , our friends who attacked us after the Germans !!!
I think in this war , nobody's clean !!!

what is done is done !
For now I'm not worry with German's , or Italian , despite of this war !

XyZspineZyX
10-27-2003, 10:04 PM
the external model of the Dewoitine is almost finished:

http://jg777.com/il2/images/


FRANCE

In FB ----- Available ----- Coming in Pay Add-On ----- Coming in Free Add-On ----- 3rd party WIP


Aircraft External Cockpit Skin Status Notes
Fighters / Night Fighters (Armee de l'Air / Aeronavale / Vichy AF)
Hawk 75 A3 Viikate Bluestone59 Viikate Ext. 100%, Cp. 10%, S. 100% Coming in Payware Add-On (AI)
Hawk 75 A4 Viikate Bluestone59 Viikate Ext. 100%, Cp. 10%, S. 100% Coming in Payware Add-On (AI)
Caudron 714 Hoarmurath Hoarmurath Hoarmurath Ext. 80%, Cp. 0%, S. 0% Coming along nicely. 10/13/03.
Bloch MB. 152C-1 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Dewoitine D 520 PedraO PedraO PedraO Ext. 95%, Cp. 0%, S. 50% Project stopped.
Mor.-Saul. M.S. 406 ----- ----- ----- In FB (AI) -----
Mor.-Saul. M.S. 410 ----- ----- ----- In FB (AI) -----
Potez 630 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Potez 631 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Planned Similar to Potez 633 version.
Bombers (Armee de l'Air / Aeronavale / Vichy AF)
Amiot 143 M ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bloch 174 A3 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bloch 175 B3 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bloch 175 T ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bregeuet 690 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bregeuet 691 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Bregeuet 693 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Farman F 222 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Farman F 223 ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Potez F 633 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Ext. 90%, Cp. 0%, S. 100% Working on LODs. 10/2/03
Potez F 637 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Planned Similar to Potez 633 version.
Potez F 63.11 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Bluestone59 Planned Similar to Potez 633 version.
SNCASE LeO 451 174thKami 174thKami 174thKami Ext. 99%, Cp. 0%, S. 100% Looks good. Damage being modeled. 10/17/03
SNCASE LeO 451 B4 174thKami 174thKami 174thKami Ext. 99%, Cp. 0%, S. 100% Looks good. Damage being modeled. 10/17/03





We may be hard on the outside,but inside, we are soft as cotton.
<ceter>http://www.funnypictureswebsite.com/funnypictures/funny-pictures213.jpg </center>
WESTCOAST FOREVER!

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 08:59 AM
It's been almost 2 years since the external of the D520 is nearly finished (though we have no idea of the lods and damages status).
To the status, you should add TooCool's excellent work on the Breguet serie.

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 10:49 AM
What a crap thread grew up from people who only like to fly boring Mustangs or other prªt- -porter stuff.

IMHO if Oleg starts to create a BoB he should include BOF, that's for sure. A real 1940 SIM, with the first tries of RAF bombing in nothern Germany, Battle of France and surely BoB.

And it's still a negative surprise to me, that with the original title like FB, the FAF still lacks on it's fighters like the H-75 and MS406 and Mork¶.



If anyone at my Funeral has a long face, I'll never speak to him again.
Stan Laurel



EJGr.Ost Kimura

http://www.jagdgruppe-ost.de/image/ejgrost.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 11:04 AM
true words.

<div style="text-align: center;">
<hr style="width: 100%; height: 2px;">
<a href="http://ifh.firstones.com" target=_blank><img src=http://ifh.firstones.com/img/banners/banner01.jpg border=0<>

Mess with the best, die like the rest...

"Never argue with an idiot! They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." (S.U.X Infinity)

XyZspineZyX
10-28-2003, 11:06 AM
we at Tangmere have been recreating the battle of france for a year now,we are currently on the the 6may1940 and the 10may40 will be on 23 november,having started early feb1940 back in october 2002

we check our website to see how we ahve used an il2 map and turned it french

after all its a game and you do need to use some imagination!

unfortunatley we dont take non tangmere members on ops missions (sundays) but we do run a BoB style df server thru the week!



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No1-Squadron Royal Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 12:19 PM
The apparent lack of interest in BoF surprises me, and I would be interested to hear someone who lacks interest in this explain why it doesn't appeal to them.

You have the potential for tons of new aircraft that have never appeared in a serious war sim before. Added to that you have the potential for many of the intriguing "what would have happened if?" scenarios that are the reason why many of us play historical games in the first place.

Even from a pure BoB perspective the BoF is crucial. Who has not read about Dowding's mounting concern as Churchill sent one Hurricane squadron after another to be consumed in the BoF? Including the BoF in the campaign gives the RAF the same choice it had in 1940 - go for broke to save France or hold back to protect Great Britain from invasion.

Most of all, BoF would be something different. Before IL2 was released the conventional wisdom was that there was no way an Eastern European WWII sim could appeal to the American market, and therefore there were no such sims. IL2 proved this to be mistaken. People like things that are familiar, true, but they also like variety. Including the BoF in BoB provide gamers with both.

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 06:33 PM
You make a very good point Tommy,

The Battle Of Britain, in terms of attrition especially, cannot be separated from the battle of France, another interest for simulating it in Oleg's Bob

XyZspineZyX
10-29-2003, 10:08 PM
2 MAIN PB with a french 1940 campaign :

1- I think the main pb will be the AI.
The actual AI in FB is too disciplined for reflecting french behaviour in aerial combat. Wingmen should not keep with their leaders and , so eager to fight, should break formation as soon as enemy is sighted.

2- Another pb is that french planes will be naturally under-modelled. Don't forget that, according to their historians, the french army had in 1940 the best weapons, planes, tanks, pilots and crews of the entire galaxy.

They only lost the war in 15 days because the german army, so incult and irrespectful, was not aware of that.


Monty in Africa, to his Aide de camp : "The best french troops are their Foreign Legion".
Aide de camp : "Sir, they're nearly all foreigners !!"
Monty : "That's not the only reason"

;-)

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 03:04 AM
Icolin you are stupid it's incredible to see how much people must return to school to learn their history lessons.LOL !
- USA exist only because the French Kingdom have sent French army lead by the Marquis de La Fayette to America (Remember the Yorktown victory......)
US ARMY has been created on the French army model in 1916 with the Marechal Joffre help.
Overlord Operation was a success because at first the french resistance have sent a lot of information about the ennemy position, cuting communication line, rescued allied pilot shot down over France.... For exemple, President Roosevelt have sent a letter to thanks the french britanny resistance to have free this part of France ALONE that's let the US ARMY run to Brest from Rennes in only 3 Days ! you can see that letter in the french army museum "Les Invalides" in Paris.
And to finish remember one thing in 60's President De Gaulle have warn Kennedy to avoid military action against Vietnam he was true right ?
Chirac have done the same with Bush to avoid military action against Irak and we can see now he's about to be true.
Americans like to play Cowboy by taking position even the international consensus but when you are in trouble you cry to have help pffffff


RTA Gunter Major Alcoolique anonyme USAAF

RTA Gunter Major Alcoolique anonyme USAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 05:01 AM
Hey, RTA_Gunter, I don't like the America-bashing any more than you like the French bashing. I understand that you were provoked, but you don't need to whack 230,000,000 people to swat one troll.

N'est-ce-pas?

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 07:10 AM
I agree with you it just to show that kind of message is unplaisant and i'm fed up to see french bashing on the net

RTA Gunter Major Alcoolique anonyme USAAF

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:20 AM
TommyTroy wrote:
- Hey, RTA_Gunter, I don't like the America-bashing
- any more than you like the French bashing. I
- understand that you were provoked, but you don't
- need to whack 230,000,000 people to swat one troll.

As much as I like to answer in kind when provoked (to lcolin), it'd be hard to argue with this. S!

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 12:03 PM
a lot of crap was spoken in this thread.

---------------------------------------



http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.bryant3/ETSigGermany.gif




under 30k?

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 12:22 PM
indeed Nufoerki.

Some ppl can't walk in there without their racist ideas. To get more to the point, whatever country your flying for, people who fight to defend their honor, their lands have to be respected. Allies like Axis. Remember that they were men, first of all, like you and me.

Frenchs've been beaten in 3 weeks, so what ? Does their bravery in the fight is less important ? They suffered like every one else. And they suffered not just for France but for liberty like Americans and Britishs and Canadians and Polish and i could go on. Frenchs kept fighting in Africa and among Russian pilots with the famous Normandie Niemen, shown in FB... Something we can all be respectful of.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 02:10 PM
here for the French Aces who fight with the Allies :

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/frenchaces/index.html

here, another list :

http://users.accesscomm.ca/magnusfamily/ww2fra.htm

You ply FB, you must known that the Normandie-Niemen was a French Formation in USSR! the ONLY formation of foreign people in this country!

A Tempest Pilot Pierre Clostermann :

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/closterm.htm

You must read this book : "The Big Show"
here, some part of the book
http://www.flyandrive.com/cadremunsterland2.htm

http://www.flyandrive.com/story.htm

You must research also for:

Marin la Meslée
Jacques Andrieux
Capitaine Accart
René Mouchotte
Roger Sauvage
Marcel Albert
Jean Maridor ( http://maridor.free.fr/index2.htm )
.....



Message Edited on 10/30/0302:20PM by Seb86

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 02:49 PM
I'm currently reading the book of Sauvage called in French "Un du Normandie-Niemen" and it's simply amazing. You'll learn a lot of things, and as we're all fan of IL-2, it's very immersive.

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 03:00 PM
Here, a photo of Pierre Clostermann, a french aces, the top of the french pilote!

http://cheznousdeux.chez.tiscali.fr/avions/clost.htm


Grand Croix de la Légion d'Honneur
Compagnon de la Libération - décret du 21 janvier 1946
Médaille Militaire
Croix de Guerre 39/45 (19 citations)
Croix de la Valeur Militaire (2 citations)
Médaille de la Résistance avec rosette
Distinguished Service Order (GB)
Distinguished Flying Cross and Bar (GB)
Silver Star (USA)
Air Medal (USA)
Chevalier de l'Ordre du Saint-Sépulcre de Jérusalem

He is also the vice-president of Cessna Aircraft Company in the USA since 1970....

Théor¨me de Treiman : "Les choses impossibles sont des choses qui, en principe, n'arrivent jamais"

http://cheznousdeux.chez.tiscali.fr/avions/sommaire.htm

XyZspineZyX
10-30-2003, 11:00 PM
I think the people who don't want the Battle of France are probobly the same ones who thought that Russia just sat at home building lots of crap biplanes and piling them up in front of the panzers before America won the war, that was until they found IL2 in there Game store.

France was a real combatant just like everyone else, the French pilots did'nt fly and fight in the knowledge that an armistice would be signed did they?

The battle was lost on the ground and in the factories anyway, so as an air battle I would like to see it and Poland too.

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 02:08 AM
Many years ago I played an Avalon Hill boardgame called "France 1940" that had a great "what-if" scenario - it allowed the French player to substitute the Maginot Line fortifications for an enlarged military, the idea being that France would have had a much larger and more modern military machine in 1940 if the enormous sums spent on fortifications had been spent otherwise. If this approach were taken in a BoF air campaign, the French Air Force could be formidable.

BTW, readers of the late unpleasantness in this thread might note that no American spells "behavior" as "behaviour." Someone must be laughing his butt off, having caused a French tirade against us poor misunderstood Americans while himself getting off Scot-free....

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 02:45 AM
Pikov wrote:
-
- Frenchs've been beaten in 3 weeks, so what ? Does
- their bravery in the fight is less important ? They
- suffered like every one else. And they suffered not
- just for France but for liberty like Americans and
- Britishs and Canadians and Polish and i could go on.
- Frenchs kept fighting in Africa and among Russian
- pilots with the famous Normandie Niemen, shown in
- FB... Something we can all be respectful of.

Right... and to be totally correct, French were defeated in 6 weeks (10 of May - 22 of June), not 3 (even if it was obvious after the 3 first weeks that they would be defeated... but they kept fighting another 3 weeks)
Nobody claims they had the best equipment (that was mostly not true... the worst was in transmissions)

Also to be totally correct, Free French fought (after the defeat)
- in Erithrea (a batallion)
- in Syria (a small division)
- in North Africa (2 divisions, main event was Bir Hakeim)
- in Tunisia (3 divisions)
- in Italy (4 divisions + special troops, main event was the breaktrhough 3 german defense lines to open the road of Rome)
- in France (6 divisions at stard, and 12 divisions at end, liberation of Toulon, Marseilles and many other towns up to Strasbourg, defense of the whole Vosges front)
- in Germany (around 20 divisions at war end - they secured the whole south of Germany up to Austria)

This is certainly much less than what the Russians, US or Brittish troops have achieved... and couldn't have been done without first Brittish, then US equipment and training of all the troops.... but it can hardly been called "nothing"...


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 05:56 AM
I did posted that we would like to have much early battle campiage like battle of Poland, Sitzkreig, battle of France/Low Countries. For several days, I noticed serious problem is informations/data/pictures of interiors of many early planes used in that campiage are will be very hard to find due to shorter battle life and destroyed in battle. Of course, some France planes still build in numbers of planes for Vicky, Axis and it's minor. We should give in our time and try our best to find informations/pictures/drawing of early war planes and give to third party modelers and Oleg's team.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 09:30 AM
TommyTroy wrote:
- Many years ago I played an Avalon Hill boardgame
- called "France 1940" that had a great "what-if"
- scenario - it allowed the French player to
- substitute the Maginot Line fortifications for an
- enlarged military, the idea being that France would
- have had a much larger and more modern military
- machine in 1940 if the enormous sums spent on
- fortifications had been spent otherwise. If this
- approach were taken in a BoF air campaign, the
- French Air Force could be formidable.
-
- BTW, readers of the late unpleasantness in this
- thread might note that no American spells "behavior"
- as "behaviour." Someone must be laughing his butt
- off, having caused a French tirade against us poor
- misunderstood Americans while himself getting off
- Scot-free....
-
- http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
-
-

Did you play it ?
I did too, and actually I learnt wargaming on this game, I was 13 at this time, and my cousin took the Allies on the historical scenario, the allies were in Germany at the end of the game.

Actually, the most interesting part of the game was the historical booklet, a must for anybody who wants to know about battle of France

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 03:45 PM
pegase_rama wrote:
-
- Right... and to be totally correct, French were
- defeated in 6 weeks (10 of May - 22 of June), not 3
- (even if it was obvious after the 3 first weeks that
- they would be defeated... but they kept fighting
- another 3 weeks)


Oops, that's true, my fault! désolé /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 07:10 PM
I have read The Big Show, and it took me completely, although it represents just excerpts from Closterman's war diary. For example, he didn't mention him getting shot down - like when 8 Tempests, including the one he was flying fought against ONE Messerschmitt. He said it was like a school lesson, 1,2,3 and canon shells flew pass his head hitting instrument panel and the engine. Identity of that Expert was never established.

To cut a long story short, I am confirmed that the entire spring of 1940 engagement should be in the BOB sim. Like I said before, BOB would be a culminating point of a sim, like it was in WWII in 1940. Although Netherlands and Belgium campaign didn't last long, and the resistance was weak (all honours to the Dutch Queen's Grenadiers and all others I don't know about) they would make of a game, so to say, nice three stage sim. If there would be a bomber campaign it would be like that in first two stages, bomber crews were demonstrating their power, all the way till flying over UK, when the drama begins.
Also, despite of a peaceful period on the ground (so-called Sitzkrieg-Sitting war) after the occupation of Netherlands and Belgium, very bloody war in the air raged.The French campaign just wouldn't be itself without it.
As of planes in the sim, I would like that all of the planes that participated in these campaigns be included from the start. Standards set by the FB are high, and they must be, at least, maintained in all aspects.
Cockpits of the German aircraft need more than a make-up.

XyZspineZyX
10-31-2003, 10:26 PM
It is really a pain in the *** to read in year 2003 : quoting "did the French ever fight during WWII ?"...

Available daily returns of the RLM show that during operations from 10 May to 23 June the Germans lost 244 Bf109s and 110 Bf110s seriously damaged ou destroyed.

In total, the Germans considered that from 10 May to 22 June they shot down some 2224 aircraft in air combat (not only French aircraft), including some 1525 by fighters. Additionally, the German Flak was credited with 854 enemy machines shot down.

Generally, the victory-to-loss ratio was by all measures faourable for the Jagdwaffe. So what ?

Considering the Allied outdated tank and airpower doctrines in those days (a war is never won by airpower alone, but on the ground instead), the very short period of the battle and the limited area of a country like France, it is a rather honourable result for the French, especially considering the fact that France neither own endless steppes just like USSR, nor is protected by the Channel or the Atlantic.

In 1940, no democracy could have resisted a German blitzkrieg ground offensive, so why should France have been an exception ? Just remember all the sacrifices made by USSR just to get by until Operation Overlord !

And a final humor fact : the two-third beaten France even managed to repulse the Italian offensive in a few days only during June 1940. Rather funny, huh ? Muahahahaha !
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://2jg51.org/score/img_pilotes/ban_2911.jpg

Gott strafe England !

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 12:00 AM
Rab03 wrote:
- Also, despite of a peaceful period on the ground
- (so-called Sitzkrieg-Sitting war) after the
- occupation of Netherlands and Belgium, very bloody
- war in the air raged.The French campaign just
- wouldn't be itself without it.

?????
.... Sitzkrieg (what we call "la drole de guerre" in French) was _before_ the attack on the western front, including attack of Holland, Belgium and France.
Germans did attack at the same time France through the Ardennes and Belgium and Holland.

So the Bof could include the aerial fights above Holland and Belgium.


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
11-01-2003, 09:25 PM
I think IIJG51_Gerfaut had made a good resume !!!
I'm really ok with him !
He 's write on the fact the German way of making war was new , and really surprising ! and that If England havn't been an Island ... and true too on the war won against Italians !!!!

SO BOF IS A NICE IDEA FOR AN ORIGINAL CAMPAIGN !!!!!!