View Full Version : debate for he 100 d-1

04-26-2008, 07:17 PM
What do you think which is the reason why he 100 didn't reach production status !!! No one lived to
explane why it didn't!!! IT BROACKE WORLD SPEED RECORD!!! sorry for the wrrithing!!!

04-26-2008, 07:47 PM
Political reasons?
Better personal connections of his oppos (Bf-109)?

04-26-2008, 08:26 PM
100 expensive, and -109 did the job at least at the time. 100Dora would have been a better long term investment I think. But the war was supposed to be over by Christmas, as they all are supposed to when they start.

04-26-2008, 08:55 PM
Politics and manufacturing issues. They were more complex, took longer to build, and as mentioned more expensive. Add to this the political dealing and there ya go.

04-26-2008, 11:21 PM
He-100 had for armament, armor, supercharger, range?

04-27-2008, 01:26 AM
The negative given was that the aircraft had too high a landing speed! I think that would have been preferable to killer under carriage, it just goes to show that its not what you know, its WHO you know.

04-27-2008, 01:15 PM
Few interesting quotes.
From 'War planes of the second World War - Fighters - Volume one' by William Green 1961:

"Despite the superior performance of the He100D over the standard Bf 109E fighter, the official attitude was that the war would be won with the Messerschmitt and that production capacity could not be afforded for the quantity production of the Heinkel fighter."

Six 'V' machines were sold to the Soviet Union, and three pre-production He100D-0's were sold to Japan together with a manufacturing licence, but due to one thing and another they were never made in Japan.

"The twelve (˜production') He100D-1 fighters were issued to a second line squadron formed by Heinkel test pilots for the defence of the main Heinkel factory at Rostock-Marienehe."

Power plant: DB 601M twelve-cylinder inverted-V liquid cooled engine. 1,020 hp.

Range: 559 miles.

service ceiling: 32,450 feet.

Maximum speed: 416 mph at 13,120 feet.

Armament: Two 7.9mm MG17 machine guns and one MG FF/M cannon.

From ˜ The rise and fall of the Luftwaffe'

"On the airfield tarmac Milch blandly asked Udet how the He 100's mass production was coming along, and the latter replied with poker face, ˜The second production line is just starting up, and the third in two weeks' time.' In fact only a handful of He 100s was ever manufactured. Udet waved aside Dr Heinkel's amazement at the strange conversation, ˜You have to blow your own trumpet sometimes!'"

"Udet's office actively blocked some of the most advanced research undertaken by independent aircraft designers. Göing's request for research into building aircraft from wood laminates was ignored. The He 100 was dropped although faster than the standard Me 109, and when Heinkel protested Udet's chief engineer wrote in July forbidding him to pursue the matter.Udet adopted the same half-comic attitude toward all new inventions."

04-28-2008, 06:20 PM
how much man hours did it take to build it?

04-28-2008, 06:31 PM
Even when Udet did pull hard for Heinkel after witnessing the He-178 vs FW-190, Milch still
opposed and even stopped Heinkel's work through use of a lame excuse and politicking Hitler.
For sure Messerschmidt had a direct hand in it though Milch being a ground soldier did keep
the budget tilted away from the fliers. How much of a lobby Messerschmidt had going, I can't
say though.

04-28-2008, 07:04 PM
All modern aircraft have four dimensions: span, length, height and politics. TSR.2 simply got the first three right.

Sir Sydney Camm said that about TSR.2, but the same might equally be said of many other cancelled projects.

04-30-2008, 10:07 AM
I think they made a wise choice not to choose He 100 (besides the political thing between the different parties involved.

I think the He 100's cooling system could have provwed a fatal flaw for the fighter, much worser then the Me's weak undercarriage; from wiki (not neccessarily always a good source but seems this guys has done his home work):

"For the rest of the designed performance increase, Walter turned to the somewhat risky and still experimental method of cooling the engine via evaporative cooling. Such systems had been in vogue in several countries at the time. Heinkel and the Gunter brothers were avid proponents of the technology, and had previously used it on the He-119 with promising results. Evaporative or "steam" cooling promised a completely drag free cooling system. Unfortunately, the systems also proved complex and terribly unreliable in practice. Huge expanses of the airframe's outer skin had to be devoted to cooling, which made such systems succeptible to combat damage. The DB 601 was a pressure cooled engine in that the water/glycol coolant was kept in liquid form by pressure even though its temperature was allowed to exceed the normal boiling point. Heinkel's system took advantage of that fact and the cooling energy loss associated with the phase change of the coolant as it boils. Following is a description of what is known about he cooling system used in the final version of Heinkel's system. It is based entirely on careful study of surviving photographs of the He 100 since no detail plans survive. The earlier prototypes varied, but they were all eventually modified to something close to the final standard before they were exported to the Soviet Union.

Coolant exits the DB 601 at two points located at the front of the engine and at the base of each cylinder block casting immediately adjacent to the crank case. In the Heinkel system, an "S" shaped steel pipe took the coolant from each side of the engine to one of two steam separators mounted alongside the engine's reduction gear and immediately behind the propeller spinner. The separators, designed by engineers Jahn and Jahnke, accepted the water at about 110 degrees Celsius and 1.4 bar of pressure. The vertically mounted, tube shaped separators contained a centrifugal impeller at the top connected to an impeller-type scavenge pump at the bottom. The coolant was expanded through the upper impeller where it lost pressure, boiled and cooled. The by product was mostly very hot coolant and some steam. The liquid coolant was slung by the centrifugal impeller to the sides of the separator where it fell by gravity to the bottom of the unit. There, it was pumped to header tanks located in the leading edges of both wings by the scavenge pump. The presence of the scavange pump was necessary to ensure the entire separator did not simply fill up with high pressure coolant coming from the engine.

Existing photographs of the engine bay of the final pre-production version of this system clearly show the liquid coolant from both separators was piped along the bottom left side of the engine compartment and into the right wing. The header tanks were located in the outer wing panels ahead of the main spar and immediately outboard of the main landing gear bays. The tanks extended over the same portion of the outer panel's span as the outer flaps. Coolant from the right wing header tank was pumped by a separate, electrical pump to the left wing header tank. Along the way from the right to left wing, the coolant passed through a conventional radiator mounted on the bottom of the fuselage. That radiator was retractable and intended for use only during ground running or slow speed flight. Nevertheless, coolant passed through it whenever the engine was running and regardless of whether it was extended or retracted. In the retracted position, the radiator offered little cooling, but some heat was exchanged into the aft fuselage. Finally, a return tube connected the left wing's header tank to that on the right. This allowed the coolant to equalize between the two header tanks and circulate through the retractable radiator. The engine drew coolant directly from both header tanks through two separate pipes that ran through the main landing gear bays, up the firewall at the back of the engine compartment and into the usual coolant intakes located at the top rear of the engine.

The steam collected in the separators was vented separately from the liquid coolant. The steam did not required mechanical pumping to do this, and the build up of pressure inside the separator was sufficient. The steam was piped down the lower right side of the engine bay and led into the open spaces between the upper and lower wing skins of the outer wing panels. There, it further expanded and condensed by cooling through the skins. The entire outer wing, both ahead of and behind the main spar, was used for this purpose covering that portion of the span containing the ailerons (the fuel was also carried entirely in the wings and occupied the areas behind the main spar in the center section and immediately ahead of the outboard flaps). The condensate was scavenged by electrically driven centrifugal pumps and fed to the header tanks. Sources indicate as many as 22 separate pumps were used for this, but it is not clear whether that number includes all of the pumps in the entire water and oil cooling systems or merely the number of pumps in the outer wing panels. The former is generally accepted.

Some sources state the outer wing panels used double skins top and bottom with the steam being ducted into a thin space between the outer and inner skins for cooling. A double skinned panel was used in the oil cooling system, but surviving photographs of the wings demonstrate they were conventionally single skinned, and the coolant was simply piped into the open spaces of the structure. Double skinning over such an extensive area would have made the aircraft unacceptably heavy. Furthermore, there was no access to the inner structure to repair damage, such as a bullet hole, from the inside as would be needed if the system used a double skin. A similar system was used by the earlier Supermarine Type 224. Contrary to assertions in some references, all of the He 100s that were built used the evaporative cooling system described above. A derivative of this system was also intended for a late war project based on the He 100, designated P.1076."

It seems that cooling systems is a nest of troubles:
- difficult to maintain and repair
- unreliable
- LOT's of part than can be easily damaged (even by single bullet) over large parts of the aircraft. Pipes all over the place, several pumps, tanks, etc.

The fact that other nations experimented with similar system at the time but that it never went into a production comabt plane speaks for itself I think.

04-30-2008, 11:58 AM
Wasn't there also an attempt to use a similar system on the He 177 with the result that the temperature generated by the steam caused the skin to expand and buckle, causing aerodynamic problems and the abandonment of the scheme on the 177 too?

05-01-2008, 12:38 PM
Not too familair with the He 177 but think major probs with that design was that two DB engines were in fact build into one to power one prop.

Those two engines togherter caused overheating probs which were never really solved.

But don't think the 177 had a cooling system similar to the he 100.

Not an expert on this, maybe somebody else knows more...

05-01-2008, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
Wasn't there also an attempt to use a similar system on the He 177 with the result that the temperature generated by the steam caused the skin to expand and buckle, causing aerodynamic problems and the abandonment of the scheme on the 177 too?

"In order to refine the aerodynamic cleanliness of his design even further, Guenther decided to dispense with the usual system of drag-producing radiators for the engine coolant. Instead, he planned to employ evaporative-cooling. The DB 601 had been designed to run very hot. In the evaporative-cooling system - pioneered by the Heinkel company - the coolant water was pressurized; thus, it was possible to heat it to about 110�C before steam began to form in the engine. The super-heated water was then ducted away and depressurized, at which point steam formed. Then, the water was separated and returned to the motor. At the same time, the residual steam was fed through pipes in the wing and cooled by the airflow. After resultant condensation had taken place, the water from the wing pipes was also returned to the engine. During flight tests, this evaporative-cooling system worked quite well on a modified Heinkel He 100 single-seat fighter. However, even before the design of the He 177 was finalized, it was clear that such a system would be incapable of dealing with the vast amount of heat generated by the DB 606. So Guenther had to abandon this cooling system for his bomber and revert to the more conventional radiator and its attendant drag."


05-01-2008, 01:23 PM
Again from 'War planes of the second World War - Fighters - Volume one' by William Green 1961:

The Rechlin (test) pilots were highly enthusiastic over the He 100's speed but deplored its extremely high wing loading and poor handling qualities.
The Ernst Heinkel AG therefore abandoned the He100B and undertook an extensive redesign of the fighter in an attempt to improve its characteristics.
The wing was redesigned and overall span increased to 30 feet 10 3/4 inches, to reduce the wing loading, and the surface evaporation cooling system, which had proved impossible to perfect to a standard required for general service use, was supplanted by a semi-retractable belly radiator. This version was designated the He 100D.

The 'V' machines ('Versuchs' - experimental?) which went to Russia had the original wing cooling arrangement.

All of the 'D' series had the belly radiator.

That's what it says 'ere...

And there's a photograph...

05-01-2008, 01:30 PM
Didnt the Bf109 have a higher wing loading?

Pilots who convert to planes with a higher wingloading almost always make negative reports about the plane, around WW2 that sort of thing happened all the time.

For instance Japanese pilots complained of the Zero's high wing loading(!) when they first converted to it.

As for the evaporative cooling system, it sounds far too complicated for a fighter of that time which was to be used under the pressures of total war.

The He100 sounds very much like the Spitfire,takes a long time to build, no concessions made but to achieve the best airplane possible, large wings. But very expensive and complex, hard to manufacture.

Apparantly one Bf109 could be made in the samme amount of man hours as 1 SPitfire or He100. And in wartime this is a major factor.

05-01-2008, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Pilots who convert to planes with a higher wingloading almost always make negative reports about the plane, around WW2 that sort of thing happened all the time. +1