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Waldo.Pepper
09-16-2007, 09:19 PM
Think of this as a (possibly warped) public service.

All info derived from wartime testing (obviously).

Have at it guys. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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VMF-214_HaVoK
09-16-2007, 09:24 PM
Looks to me like the sim holds up pretty well once again. Thanks for posting.

S!

na85
09-16-2007, 11:44 PM
do you have a link to the original article/source?

Waldo.Pepper
09-17-2007, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by na85:
do you have a link to the original article/source?

http://www.abebooks.co.uk/abe/BookDetails?bi=895278081

Chapter Two - How they Compared.

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Blutarski2004
09-17-2007, 07:07 AM
..... Very interesting comment about P38 turn performance -

"Although at high speed the FW190 is superior in turning circles, it can be out-turned if the P38F reduces its speed to about 140 mph, at which speed it can carry out a very tight turn which the FW190 cannot follow."

Whether it is asymmetrical engine thrust, neutral torque, high aspect ratio, prop airflow over the wings, docile stall characteristics, or some combination thereof, the P38 does seem to have possessed some unusual low speed performance abilities.

SeaFireLIV
09-17-2007, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Looks to me like the sim holds up pretty well once again. Thanks for posting.

S!

Agreed. Actually this stuff is really good. Surely, Oleg must`ve gained most his info from at least some of this. This was always my mistake with the Seafire, using it like i`d use a Spit in europe against a japanese plane in a turn fight was never a great plan.

IFly_1968
09-17-2007, 10:05 AM
I find it interesting that it says "The Mustang is Greatly superior" in a turning circle against a ME109G.

bigbossmalone
09-17-2007, 10:52 AM
I find it interesting.


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Niipzu
09-17-2007, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
I find it interesting that it says "The Mustang is Greatly superior" in a turning circle against a ME109G.

Well, against Fw 190: "Again, there is not much to choose. The Mustang is slightly better."

But then again Germans themself have made it clear the Me 109 was clearly better than Fw 190 in turning circles. Something doesnt fit in the picture, probably flaws with captured planes.. We dont know.

It's a pity there is no data on allied planes captured by Germans/Japanese. Probably the same trend would pop up there.

Overall this sim is suprisingly well on spot, given the amount of planes and all the variables.

SeaFireLIV
09-17-2007, 11:01 AM
Please remember to note the parts that say, "General impression` and please note the final clause on `how they compared`.

So you can`t readily leap up and say this is concrete because even the very testers themselves admit this. However, they are one of the few testing examples that we can use as a basic reference.

I still await the flames of war to come from this thread though as everyone forgets this point.

Niipzu
09-17-2007, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Please remember to note the parts that say, "General impression` and please note the final clause on `how they compared`.

So you can`t readily leap up and say this is concrete because even the very testers themselves admit this. However, they are one of the few testing examples that we can use as a basic reference.

I still await the flames of war to come from this thread though as everyone forgets this point.

+1
We should not discard this, or take as truth. Requires lots of evaluation to draw any conclusion from this, but its all we got.

TheBandit_76
09-17-2007, 11:30 AM
P51b versus Me 109G

Max Speed: The Mustang is faster at all heights

Max Climb: The Mustang is slightly better above 25,000 ft but inclined to be worse below 20,000 feet.

Zoom Climb: The 109 appears to have a very good high speed climb, making the two aircraft similar in a zoom climb.

Dive: The Mustang can increase the range in a prolonged dive

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Turning Circle: The Mustang is greatly superior</span>

Rate of roll: ....a rapid change of direction will throw the 109's sight off. This is because the 109's maximum rate of roll is embarrassing (the wing slots keep opening.)

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Leave the 190 turn as is, improve the P51 turn slightly and tone down the 109 turn. But then that would be too realistic and true to life/history.

TheBandit_76
09-17-2007, 11:38 AM
As far as matchups go, Oleg was much closer to reality for the Mustang VS 109 in the PRE 4.X patches. A competent pilot could do well in the Mustang in a 1 v 1 matchup.

Tune the Mustang back to PRE 4.X.

faustnik
09-17-2007, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:

Chapter Two - How they Compared.

Thanks for adding that Waldo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

IFly_1968
09-17-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Niipzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IFly_1968:
I find it interesting that it says "The Mustang is Greatly superior" in a turning circle against a ME109G.

Well, against Fw 190: "Again, there is not much to choose. The Mustang is slightly better."

But then again Germans themself have made it clear the Me 109 was clearly better than Fw 190 in turning circles. Something doesnt fit in the picture, probably flaws with captured planes.. We dont know.

It's a pity there is no data on allied planes captured by Germans/Japanese. Probably the same trend would pop up there.

Overall this sim is suprisingly well on spot, given the amount of planes and all the variables. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno either. I find it interesting about the amount of fuel to. I have seen alot about fuel being a factor. Then again i was not there, nor do I know the testing criteria. But i have a feeling that this will indeed turn into a flame fest. But the information that I read there goes spot on with the several pilots accounts of saying, "We never were worried about mixing it up with the Germans in our Mustangs." Now mixing it up how is the question.

Viper2005_
09-17-2007, 12:11 PM
Insufficient information is given regarding the Spitfire v 190 comparison since the Spitfire V could be fitted with a variety of engines, as indeed could the Spitfire IX. These different engines resulted in aeroplanes of the same basic Mark having considerably different performance characteristics, especially at altitude.

In the absence of specific information, great care should be taken in drawing conclusions.

Brain32
09-17-2007, 12:14 PM
Lol I knew this will be great for Bandit76 types http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The planes in the tests were 1941 FW190A3 that was beaten through every single tactical trials througout the war, ofcourse now people expect the best in game FW model to be slightly worse than that ROFL
Situation with the 109 is even funnier, a crashlanded tropical version of 109G2 with underwing gondolas
Yes this is really highly representative of top rides in Luftwaffe 1943-1945 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Theese tests are an interesting read and I can0t thank enough to Waldo for posting them like this in once place http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


It's a pity there is no data on allied planes captured by Germans/Japanese. Probably the same trend would pop up there.
You have one excellent example of Rechlin tested La5FN, they pretty much rated it like utter POS, heck in the trials above those early(190) and utterly beaten up(109) are almost rated higher against allied 1944-45 wonders than La5FN was in the Rechlin trial http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Tune the Mustang back to PRE 4.X.
Ahh yes those times when P51D had lower turn time than Spit25 has now, now that's what I call realism, because we all know P51D could even make circles around I-153 and I-16, it's stall speed was so low they had to tie them to the hangars like boats in a harbour, so they don't fly away by themselves...

IFly_1968
09-17-2007, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Brain32:
Lol I knew this will be great for Bandit76 types http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The planes in the tests were 1941 FW190A3 that was beaten through every single tactical trials througout the war, ofcourse now people expect the best in game FW model to be slightly worse than that ROFL
Situation with the 109 is even funnier, a crashlanded tropical version of 109G2 with underwing gondolas
Yes this is really highly representative of top rides in Luftwaffe 1943-1945 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Where in the report does it say "Crash Landed ME109G with gondolas?

R_Target
09-17-2007, 04:29 PM
http://i11.tinypic.com/4uxbbef.gif

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VMF-214_HaVoK
09-17-2007, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by R_Target:
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I think it has be documented enough that the Hellcat is a tad slow and hopefully we will get the correction in 4.09. But the Hellcat we have now is still faster then the Zeke, although not by too much.

S!

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-17-2007, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by IFly_1968:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Lol I knew this will be great for Bandit76 types http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The planes in the tests were 1941 FW190A3 that was beaten through every single tactical trials througout the war, ofcourse now people expect the best in game FW model to be slightly worse than that ROFL
Situation with the 109 is even funnier, a crashlanded tropical version of 109G2 with underwing gondolas
Yes this is really highly representative of top rides in Luftwaffe 1943-1945 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Where in the report does it say "Crash Landed ME109G with gondolas? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, where?

Xiolablu3
09-17-2007, 05:32 PM
Very interesting read, thanks Waldo!


This is especially good for comparing the allied types.

The Allied to Axis comparisons can not be given too much attention, however. This is the test with the terrible performing Bf109 where the results should be discarded, for example.

All the Axis planes are likely older models at the time of test.

It is excellent to see how the respective Allied types stack up against each other.

Thanks!

Bremspropeller
09-17-2007, 05:41 PM
Yes, the Mustang will outturn the 109 AT SPEED, yes, so does the 190.
NO, both planes can't turn with the 109 at stallspeed + 5kts.

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Brain32
09-18-2007, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IFly_1968:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Lol I knew this will be great for Bandit76 types http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
The planes in the tests were 1941 FW190A3 that was beaten through every single tactical trials througout the war, ofcourse now people expect the best in game FW model to be slightly worse than that ROFL
Situation with the 109 is even funnier, a crashlanded tropical version of 109G2 with underwing gondolas
Yes this is really highly representative of top rides in Luftwaffe 1943-1945 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif


Where in the report does it say "Crash Landed ME109G with gondolas? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, where? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And where is the "report" here? I don't see no report, I see parts from a book, not original documents http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif On original reports which you can also btw find on spitperf. site you have werk nr. of the 109 in question.
Even here they mention it's a "subtype" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Anyway that was the so called RN.228 most pictures of it are without the gondies, however I yet have to see a picture that was actually taken during the war or tactical trials.
I believe the best(latest) ME109 Allies were able to aquire during the war was TP814, which was a plane 109G6 with underwing gondolas, but hey atleast it wasn't a shot down, crashlanded trop version http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JG53Frankyboy
09-18-2007, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
..........All info derived from wartime testing (obviously).

Have at it guys. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

===

or visit this page
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/

luftluuver
09-18-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Brain32:
I believe the best(latest) ME109 Allies were able to aquire during the war was TP814, which was a plane 109G6 with underwing gondolas, but hey atleast it wasn't a shot down, crashlanded trop version http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

By Kurfurst on another board (CWoS)

RN 228 is in fact Black Six, produced by Erla early October 1942. captured a month later in damaged state in the Western Desert, presumably left behind as unairworthy due to battle damage. The aircraft had a splinter mark on it's propeller, both the radiator and oil cooler flaps were malfunctioning during the trials.

Now if anyone was to claim it was a crashed landed a/c he would be the one.

VMF-214_HaVoK
09-18-2007, 12:50 PM
I believe the best(latest) ME109 Allies were able to aquire during the war was TP814, which was a plane 109G6 with underwing gondolas, but hey atleast it wasn't a shot down, crashlanded trop version Wink

You believe? Not one 109 left by end of war? Your comment is typical of both sides anytime something such as this is posted. Only hear what you want to hear and only see what you want to see.

S!

JG4_Helofly
09-18-2007, 01:47 PM
Would be good to know exactly what aircraft they tested and in which condition it was, at least for the captured german planes.

FluffyDucks2
09-18-2007, 02:29 PM
My understanding of reading about these trials many times is that both the 190 and the 109 were in pretty poor states.

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Brain32
09-18-2007, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I believe the best(latest) ME109 Allies were able to aquire during the war was TP814, which was a plane 109G6 with underwing gondolas, but hey atleast it wasn't a shot down, crashlanded trop version Wink

You believe? Not one 109 left by end of war? Your comment is typical of both sides anytime something such as this is posted. Only hear what you want to hear and only see what you want to see.

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
First, please read thoroughly before replying.
Second, no, there is simply no document I managed to find anywhere where "Chart monkeys" share their stuff that would contain a trial, test or even basic comment on later BF/ME-109 models. TP814(109G6/U2) is the latest 109 model one is able to find in Allied tactical trials.
With the 190 situation is not much better A3,A5 and G3(although they seem to had been in good condition) are the ones used in those tests.
If you or anybody else can find better stuff than that, please share...

Flight_boy1990
09-19-2007, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
...leave the 190 turn as is, improve the P51 turn slightly and tUne down the 109 turn...

LOL...Ooo MY GOD!!!!I'm a blue pilot in this game,and when i readed this i was about to hang my self on my mouse!!!!!You guys don't have shame?!Can't you see?The A-3 in the tests don't have a WEP!So if the brits which have done these tests would have to wrote something much more different when testing an FW-190 Anton-9 or Dora-9 with WEP-ON+100% prop.pitch http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .And for the G-6,don't you ever heared guys that the Trop versions were a bit slower?And stop crying for your Ponyes(or Mustangs),when they fought with the ME-109s,the 109s were with heavy cannons!Gondolas under the wings+an MK.108 nose cannon+the Fuel,which means that they had much than worst performance when dog.fighting!(lets not talk about the drop tank that the G-6 was able to carry with all those cannons).Try to overturn an Ponye with such an ornament in Me-109 and even to catch him in the game.
And what is all about?!To tune down the turn performence of the Me-109?!Ok,so it'll be more realistic when fighting with the western allies,but what about when fighting the Ivans in the East?We can't overturn them now,and when we'll get an Me-109 with tuned down turn and speed performance in the next patch...we can't overturn them now,so what if we get 109s with much more tuned down charasteristics,and we face an LA-5 FN,OMG it'll be better to shoot myself with my LUGER in the 109s cockpit!
/Just wonna tell ya guys,that german pilots have tested captured LA-5F,and the pilots said that the ME-109 have better turn performance,i think that everyone here knows this pretty well!/

Brain32
09-19-2007, 04:35 AM
To tune down the turn performence of the Me-109?!Ok,so it'll be more realistic when fighting with the western allies...
Like he11 it will, it's already pathetic as it is, late monster-powered Gustavs are barely slighty better than 6 ton heavy P47, while K4 model is outturned by just about anything save the B25. We have insanely exaggerated control heavyness, extremely poor manouverbility, overdone opposition, damage model of A6M2 and ofcourse the overmodelled RoC of 109K4, lol I would tell where can a modeller of that plane stuff that extra 1-3m/s RoC but that wouldn't be polite http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

luftluuver
09-19-2007, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
My understanding of reading about these trials many times is that both the 190 and the 109 were in pretty poor states. Pretty poor state? They were not fresh from the factory floor but wouldn't say they were in poor state but had some minor defects.

Now it is said that Faber's 190 had engine problems due to the use of Brit fuel and no doubt it had some contribution to how the engine ran but I have seen no report from the German side on this a/c. It had one of the so-called de-rated engines installed, yet the Brits ran it above the de-rated boost.

The Brits also had at least 2 other 190As, an A-4 and an A-5, they tested but I have seen no reports on these a/c.

The 109 (RN228) had a slightly damaged prop blade and thermostats that were in-operable. Hardly in a poor state. Did it effect performance? Sure but not enough for the 'blues' to call it a dog.

Then there is the gondy 109, TP814. Gee, did the Allies never have any combat with a gondy 109? Gondy 109s sure didn't loose much speed according to Kurfurst. How much roc and ror did the gondies 109s lose?

There is no indication of the state of the Allied a/c used in the tests. Better maintained no doubt but how 'used' were they?

The 'reds' take these tests as the gospel truth http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif and the 'blues' get their knickers in a knot because the a/c were not factory fresh. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif The truth is in between.

Someone said, possibly Kurfurst, that if an a/c went US, there was plenty of others to take its place. This to me says that late war German a/c were not in the best of shape and would be closer to the state of a/c in the Allied tests.

SeaFireLIV
09-19-2007, 05:07 AM
Amazing and banal. the way people dive in with what they `think` or `believe` and others who try to muddy the waters, cos that`s all it takes... cause confusion, even without a scrap of fact.

Once upon a time (when i first arrived) I used to believe people who posted here because I didn`t think people would be so callous as to post without really knowing.

Now I take a healthy dose of sceptiscm with every word written and every `fact` posted by people who talk like they know, but actually do not.

Feathered_IV
09-19-2007, 05:10 AM
How a bunch of supposed grown ups can continue to engage in this obsessive verbal buggery, again and again.

Jesus wept. It is a computer game for ages 8 and up. Think about it!

If you beleive for even a tiny instant you have anything useful to add that can be of any possible significance, go somewhere where real historians gather and say it there.