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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 02:54 PM
...or could it be that the AI takes all the fun out it? I took G-14 and G-10 for for a little spin against the Yak-3. Thought I'd fly something else for a change. I know that the 109's are more turn friendly than the 190 family and you can really feel it. The 109's handling is very pleasant. In my head I thought, with this stable platform and that climbrate I could have some serious fun! But after several attempts trying to escape the fury of the AI Yak-3 the smile on my face vanished and a look of desperation took its place. D-mnit! What's up with this? Laserbeams shot out from the Yak cutting my 109 to pieces with ease over and over and... I was crushed! Ok I admit it the Yak-3 is a handfull to fight against both in the horizontal and vertical even when flying the D-9, but this was too much! Does the 109 suck so bad or does the AI take ALL the fun out of fighting offline?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 02:54 PM
...or could it be that the AI takes all the fun out it? I took G-14 and G-10 for for a little spin against the Yak-3. Thought I'd fly something else for a change. I know that the 109's are more turn friendly than the 190 family and you can really feel it. The 109's handling is very pleasant. In my head I thought, with this stable platform and that climbrate I could have some serious fun! But after several attempts trying to escape the fury of the AI Yak-3 the smile on my face vanished and a look of desperation took its place. D-mnit! What's up with this? Laserbeams shot out from the Yak cutting my 109 to pieces with ease over and over and... I was crushed! Ok I admit it the Yak-3 is a handfull to fight against both in the horizontal and vertical even when flying the D-9, but this was too much! Does the 109 suck so bad or does the AI take ALL the fun out of fighting offline?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:32 PM
You are right.. late 109 require much more patience, than the early war 109 imho. And much more skill. you can't even trust to outrun all your opponents anymore.. so you should go higher than enemy.. VVS planes have much poorer perfomance on higher altitudes (> 3000 meters, like LA-7), so you have much more chances of dealing them at higher altitudes..

Late 109 are also cripped in perfomance.. And overheating is an issue for 109 at the moment.. comparing to vvs counterparts you gotta be careful not to overheat your engine... I hear 1.2 should fix 109 acceleration, overheating, and late 109 top speeds.. which seem to be bit too low at the moment (G-14 & G-10).. B&Z in late 109 is fortunlaty pretty effective, thanks to MK108.. one hit is usually enough to bring your opponents down.. you just need to get really close /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif and avoid turn fighting with Yaks..



____________________________________



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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 03:41 PM
Take the 109 K and learn the manual prop pitch. Is the king. I'm not saying that I can do it, but i know someone that can (-=FA=-Rattle Cat)/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:07 PM
Interestingly enough late 109s have two breeds in FB : G-10 and G-14 is seriously undermodelled, especially at altitude, whereas K-4 and G-6/AS rule.

Otherwise, dunno, I took a G-14 flight vs. Yak-3 flight after the patch came out, and my impression was the exact opposite, the Yaks seem to be very easy to dispatch (compared to previous patches).

Anyway, the current G-14/10 is not even near to the horror of G-6s in old Il-2...



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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:11 PM
100% throttle, toggle the radiators to closed. You now have an aircraft that will out run, out accellerate, out climb, and out dive the Yak-3.

And if you really want to have fun, do a four against four, and watch the Yak-3's drop like flies. By the time you're done, you'll be wonding how the blazes does one lose in a late model 109.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:16 PM
Whaaaaaaa! whhaaaaaaa! whaaaaaaa!
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There is nothing wrong with the 109's. or 190's.

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:21 PM
AI FM makes Yak3 even more superior to best LW weapons.If you`re bounced by a human there`s no other way than apply MW50 and climb away.

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Message Edited on 10/21/0305:34PM by carguy_

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:27 PM
Bump /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


I find the ability to survive an offline campaign in a 109
after January '43 to be almost utter futility. The AI in your flight don't fight correctly in the currently performance weak late 109s at all. So what happens is your AI flight members get slaughtered immediately since they don't fly the plane correctly, attempting to turn fight against late Yaks, LAs and whatever. You end up trying to live against 6 enemies that can outrun, outgun, outclimb and outturn you, since your buddies are now wasted, grease spots on the ground. You don't stand a chance of a successful campaign unless you "refly" constantly, which is no fun at all. Some balance needs to be added to the game that gives you a fighting chance in late 109s. Really, flying FW190s is not much better since the Russian laser beam firing AI pilots
shoot you in the one weak spot the 190 FM has, it's wings.
I once flew with a flight of six FW190 against four Hurricane MkIIc's. We all got our wings shot off within 10 seconds, no losses to the Hurricanes. Needless to say, I have not flown the FW 190 since and won't until they rework the weak wing DM.
I now fly russian, where you can live for the entire war
and never have to hit "refly". Gee, are we surprised?? Do the Russians make this sim or something?? I have always thought that the programmers for this sim must be Russian. Fun flying for VVS, no fun at all flying LW.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin - 1755



Message Edited on 10/21/0303:55PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:33 PM
I've been doing 4 vs 4 109K vs P51 with both set at ace level and come away (most often) with 2 or three intact 109's when all the P51's are toast. So against P51 AI the 109K does quite well....manual engine control.

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:36 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
-


What a stupid comment!


-jippo

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 04:54 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:

"There is nothing wrong with the 109's. or 190's"

Spoken like a true online player, us offliners see things a different way.
While it may be true that the flight model of the 109 is sufficiently decent for a really good pilot ( which I'm sure you are, Copperhead ) to survive online, try flying the same plane in an offline, dynamic campaign scenario. You will have to shoot down every Yak or La all by yourself and do it within one or two minutes, it all rests on your shoulders since the AI 109 pilots in your flight will get shot down almost instantaneously. Try to survive and never have to hit refly, you can't do it. You'll end up being the one going "Whaaaaaa, waaaaaaa, waaaaaaa" Mr. Copperhead.
See if you are good enough to kill all he enemy Yaks within
one minute, or if you can't get them all that fast, see if you can survive all by yourself against 4 Yaks, since your helpers have all been shot down. You can't even bug out and fly home since they out run you and out climb you. I challenge anyone to start a career in a 109 after 1943 and live very long. And not hit the refly button that is.

And another problem I have with the "all flight models are ok" group. If Maddox/IC has always had perfect FMs, then why have they constantly changed them?? If the 109s fly differently now than they did in the first release of FB,
( which they do ) which flight model was correct?? The one before or the one now?? How can all the different flight models of the same plane all have been correct all through the sims history?? If Maddox was perfect at developing flight models, then they would have never had to change a thing since IL2s inception.




Message Edited on 10/21/0304:08PM by mortoma

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:05 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- Whaaaaaaa! whhaaaaaaa! whaaaaaaa!
<img
- src="http://a820.g.akamai.net/f/820/822/1d/i.ivill
- age.com/topics/i/header_photos/parenting_baby.jpg">
-
-
- There is nothing wrong with the 109's. or 190's.
-

lol..this from someone who's never flown them....

<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:28 PM
hi,

I just want to tell you that it is historically correct
that the later bf109`s were built for destroying
bombers. It wasn`t important to climb very fast.

Read books about this facts.

So the early bf109`s were built to kill fighters
and the later to kill bombers.

Thats the difference.

There is one big mistake that i see that people often make online.That is that they dogfight against the enemy instead boom and zoom. Pilots of bf109`s in the WWII who went on
dogfight instead of boom and zoom were also hamburgers for
the russian fighters. I have read that in pilot stories.



Rotterdam/The Netherlands

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 05:53 PM
hornetsting wrote:
-Pilots of bf109`s
- in the WWII who went on
- dogfight instead of boom and zoom were also
- hamburgers for
- the russian fighters. I have read that in pilot
- stories.
-
-
-
-
- Rotterdam/The Netherlands

You are wrong here. Helmut Lipfert said that in most of his fights he ended up in a low turnfight.He started flying combat in 1943,and downed over 200 planes.


http://www.luftwaffe.cz/lipfert.html

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:13 PM
And what about Herrmann Graf?...200+ victories barnstorming ants....dodging sheep and cows while downing anything the russky had?....the problem here is that there is not 2 separate AI modelling on FB, German and Russians have been programmed to turnfight...wrong in my opinion, and the AI dont make mistakes like a normal human would do, plus their AC wont shudder and twist while firing, and...AI has the benefit of performing CEM automatically and matematically precise...something that only the best around here could do if they had the same quadrant as the real plane had.

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XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:33 PM
Being an offline only player I have to chime in and agree that there is something amiss with the AI vS. player performance in YAKs and LAs - even when accounting for foolproof operation. In a dive those LA Aces can catch up to a 190 and compete in high speed turns wheras that feat cannot be duplicated when you fly the LA. Very strange indeed.

A here her to those that despair of your entire AI 109 flight being decimated by VVS AI flight of equal ranking - every time. If your flying LW it appears the opposing AI always has advantage.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 08:45 PM
I'm afraid us off-liners just have to live with cheating A1's. A1's don't give a darn about altitude either. Try to climb far enough to get away from a Russian Aircraft. They follow you to high altitudes shooting laser beams all the while. I don't think on-line players have the same problems. Thats why they usually tell you to "Learn your Aircraft" or "practice".
I think I read that Oleg estimates only 10% of the players fly on-line. Seems like something should be done for off-liners. Even some simple things might help.
I know that system requirements would increase with a somewhat true FM of the A1's. I'd sure like to try it though.

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2003, 09:00 PM
I really enjoy to fly the bf 109 . The early variants have the best visibility and turnrate and are adequate against contemporary fighters.

Its a different matter when it comes to later models.

The late G6 variant was the first with MG-131 as standard
and MG-151/20 MK ( motorkanone), taller rudder and longer tail wheel to improve handling on ground, and Galland hood.

The g10 was essentially a g6 witha DB 605D engine with MW-50 Water/methanol injection.

The g14 had DB 605 as or am engine with improved supercharging but still basically a late g6.


The bf 109 K4 had DB 605 asc or DB 605 dc engine with nitrous oxide boost as standard and mk 108 or 103 and mg 151 /15in cowling. It was a K2 with cockpit pressurisation.


so some new things added to an old airframe.

The yak 3 is a difficult opponent because it does most better or equally good as the 109 K4 and the visibility is exeptionally good so an expert in a yak3 only have to be careful in a furball vith multiple enemies, meaning , if he knows what he is doing he will have no problem with a single bf 109K4.


In my opinion a k4 that is able to shoot down yak3's is either lucky or good. A yak3 pilot dsnt have to be so skilled to shoot down a K4, and if he cant shoot it down he should be able to evade him better ( superb visibility)

This must be why real pilots was so happy with the Yak3 =
It was a superb aircraft.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:23 AM
ob_swe wrote:

- The bf 109 K4 had DB 605 asc or DB 605 dc engine
- with nitrous oxide boost as standard and mk 108 or
- 103 and mg 151 /15in cowling. It was a K2 with
- cockpit pressurisation.

Dear god not again!!

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:51 AM
It is possible to win with the later 109's in offline play against the yak3. Use b&z tactics and avoid a turning contest. You have more latitude in turning than you do with say the 190 because E recovery is better. So it might help to practice with the 190a5 first. But the best tip I can share with you is how to keep your AI alive. The most effective tactic I have found so far after a thousand hours or so is what I would call a crossover. When you make the initial exchange, and set up for the first kill, (#2 will follow you) should you fail to dispatch your adversary quickly he will almost certainly start some manuvering and consequently slow down. Don't take the bait! You most often cannot win a turning contest under these conditions. Instead, use your supperior energy to direct yourself to where 3&4's action is. Unless they are completely engaged they seem to understand this and will usually end up going after the pair you started off on thus completeing the "crossover." While admittedly this requires some practice it can be repeated often with good results. On average, using these tactics, I can bag one or two yaks and bring home half; if not all of my AI. I know flying in this manner sounds boring, and at times has its disappointments, but do try it you may be pleasantly supprised.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 04:59 AM
They will be more competitive in auto in version 1.2 the time before overheat has been increased as well, as of now you have to fly them in manual, the 109k4 still can out run any russian plane at any alt with manual and over reving the engine. Th eg14 and 10 seem to hold thier top speeds well but getting them up there is another story http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:33 AM
You want some fun in a late-model 109 ? Try the Hungarian 109 mission. It's 3 G-14s vs 4 P-51 (D ?). I've played it twice and nailed 3 Mustangs both time.

Gunpods make Mustangs go boom.

Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1951.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 08:27 AM
AIs aren't a real challenge after some practice. You can kill 4 Yaks set on ace with a K4.
Being a 109 addicted, at least until the latest patch, /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif what I'm curious to hear is how some people practically uses prop pitch on the K4. Maybe I lost my confidence too soon but I don't see that great advantage in using prop pitch. The auto pitch already keeps the engine quite steadily on 2600-2800 RPM which seems to be quite good.
What I find useful in a B&Z fight is to use prop pitch to delay overheating, but beyond that...

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XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 10:46 AM
Here's one way of doing it when facing the Yak-3(or any other fighter for that matter)offline.

I accelerate to max speed, when the badguy approaches I make swift manouvers in the rolling plane in order to make it harder for him to hit me. This is only possible with the 190's. Those laser pointers sometimes hit anayways, usually killing the engine or worse killing the pilot, and usually with just one hit. After the pass the AI has to do a 180 degree climbing high G turn. Now this manouver would kill alot of his energy, but it doesn't unfortunatelly. At this point however I'm pointing my nose 90 degrees up in order to gain max altitude in the zoom. At the top I flip around and point the nose straight down. This is when I kill him or damage him(more likely) or I just miss. I continue the vertical dance making sure I always have the alt advantage. Running away is a poor choice since he can't overheat, diving away is stupid since he can dive forever. The problem with 190's is that when diving and trying to pull up before speeds in excess of 500km/h is reached, the nose is severly heavy and the pitching ability is very much limited, this gives the Yak the opportunity to to stay out of my gun sight. With the Yaks, pitching is never a problem, looping at 350km/h is easy.

Now, when flying the 109, the swift manouvers in the rolling plane is impossible, if flying anywere within 45 degrees of the Yak in the pass he will easily shoot you. So an 80 degree pass works better, but this way the Yak doesn't have to make 180 degree climbing turn, and he's on your tail in no time, and with no E-bleed well, you're dead. However, flying the K-4 I managed to stay at a safe distance from the laser pointers when in a zoom climb, but no so with the G-10 and G-14. The russian superiority is not so pronounced when flying online, but offline it clearly shows who has the advantage at all times. The AI takes all the fun out!/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


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'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 11:12 AM
Agreed!

My experience is, even online the VVS planes are generally superior to LW. No, I'm not giving any specifics, I'm sick of all this number crunching. This is of course far more pronounced when playing offline. Suffice to say, the air war in the east would not have lasted more than a few weeks, had the LW had as staggering losses as you do in a campaign. I always play VVS and have a great time wasting loads of Germans. Their AI is really poor at handling their aircraft, so it really is too easy, whether fighting 109's, 190's, Stuka's or whichever.
In my opinion, AI is by far the greatest weakness in the game right now, not the admittedly questionable FM and DM.
And why the hell do I have to cruise several minutes on 8x speed from base to action, half the time getting flown down by wingmen or blown out of the sky by flak? That is a complete waste of time. What happened to the EAW feature "jump to action"?

Cheers

Crazy Yuri

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 01:34 PM
For early WAR I always set LW as Veteran and VVS as Rookie, maybe with some Average sprinkled in on both, and give LW some hysterically correct height advantage. This lets LW win most of the AI turn fights in the larger air battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 02:53 PM
Why does the 109s sucks?? Look at that wartime pic and to that unknown ground crew member to the left, who sneaks around.

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Message Edited on 10/22/0302:55PM by KIMURA

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 03:04 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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'When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!'

</center>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:12 PM
hobnail wrote:
-
- ob_swe wrote:
-
-- The bf 109 K4 had DB 605 asc or DB 605 dc engine
-- with nitrous oxide boost as standard and mk 108 or
-- 103 and mg 151 /15in cowling. It was a K2 with
-- cockpit pressurisation.
-
- Dear god not again!!


-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Eh..... what....????? have I missed something...?

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:29 PM
if ya started w an energy advantage then u spent it unwisely or you got suckered out of it. two things you should avoid in the future

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 05:42 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- Whaaaaaaa! whhaaaaaaa! whaaaaaaa!
<img
- src="http://a820.g.akamai.net/f/820/822/1d/i.ivill
- age.com/topics/i/header_photos/parenting_baby.jpg">
-
-
- There is nothing wrong with the 109's. or 190's. ,,,

Ban this guy for a month ....Wasnt there a big thread just a few days ago about asshats like this making stupid remarks just to stir up trouble....Hell ban him for good as an example .....

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:20 PM
Jaws2002 wrote:
- Take the 109 K and learn the manual prop pitch. Is
- the king. I'm not saying that I can do it, but i
- know someone that can.


Theres a differance between learning how to use manual proppitch & abusing manual PP /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 06:25 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- Whaaaaaaa! whhaaaaaaa! whaaaaaaa!
<img
- src="http://a820.g.akamai.net/f/820/822/1d/i.ivill
- age.com/topics/i/header_photos/parenting_baby.jpg">
-
-
- There is nothing wrong with the 109's. or 190's.

I beg to differ with you Copper, Bolth have many problems still and probly alwayes will but there flyable....


Case in point

FW190 Rollrate (not right)

Bf109 Overheat (too fast)

not going to name the others thats just 1 exzample for each /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Have a nice day

<CENTER> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1065290873.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:39 PM
lol Vipez your sig cracked me up.
Yep thats what it feels like online hehe.

Could someone please try to explain the nuances of pitch control in laymens terms once and for all!!

Maybe I'm just pain stupid but I don't get it and have been playing IL2/FB since first released in the UK.

Stupid from London

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:45 PM
jellyhead wrote:
- lol Vipez your sig cracked me up.
- Yep thats what it feels like online hehe.
-
- Could someone please try to explain the nuances of
- pitch control in laymens terms once and for all!!
-
- Maybe I'm just pain stupid but I don't get it and
- have been playing IL2/FB since first released in the
- UK.
-
- Stupid from London


Don't beat yourself up for not understanding it, lots of us don't. But here's some reading that might help:

http://www.mudmovers.com/Sims/FB/fb_cem.htm


Cheers



<CENTER>http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/FB_JG27.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 07:53 PM
Well the G-10 and G-14 series are rather 'different' compared to early war planes and seem to have been made with Hungarian production standards in mind. The G-10 according to Il2compare outperforms the G-14 at most altitudes and the K-4 at low alts.

Ace AI are hard in any circumstance. Once in a Finnish campaign i had a Safanov Ace shoot down 4 B-239 wingmates before even turning once. They simply are too accurate. Ground attack aircraft are also, on all skill levels, too accurate. One squadron can kill all the flak around an airbase in a couple of minutes.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 11:42 PM
Oh and i should mention that the G-10s are apparently 'refurbished and improved' planes and not newly constructed airframes, according to the object viewer, in cause this was forgotten. It may explain some of the incorrect expectations of players. Indeed in most cases the G-2 is superior at low altitudes to most every other 109 model until the K, although it lacks the higher speeds of the latter.

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2003, 11:51 PM
I generally stick to the G2

seems the best for me in handling, although the speed and guns of the K are pretty good.

Maybe its not that the 109 is that far off, maybe its the overmodel of ya know, the whole VVS fleet /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


OMG, I made a luftwhiner comment /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<center>http://www.blitzpigs.com/john/BP-johann-9-4-03.gif <center>

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:52 AM
i dunno if the 109 is undermodelled or the others over, but i just had a expierence i will not forget, took off with a K, had a LA7 and P39 keep up with me in a climb, then at 6500 i couldnt shake them, stay right with me and gain... thats bogus.... k has speeds recorded at 750k at 6k or higher... the other done even come close... but of course the overheat in 2 min thing really isnt nice either, you can never let your 109 breath and stretch it legs like you supposed to do at them alt.. doh...

FIX IT GUYS WHOMEVER IS DOINT IT.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:45 AM
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/page010a.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/page010b.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/page010c.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
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I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif