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walsh2509
11-09-2004, 03:14 PM
I have (don't laugh) Logitech Digital 3D Wingman Extreme.

And I have had a bit of trouble flying with it, the rudder on most planes sit off centre to the left as I view the plane F2 from behind and the right wing dips (easy setting) no torque wind and so on all switched off and my planes go into a steep climb if I take the pressure off my stick ( evelvators trim I know but I have put neutral trim on and kept the same speed and still as soon as I loosen the grip up the planes go )..

Now I looked at the Input on Hardware for the joystick setting within the game and in the zxis one (the corss hairs) the green marker was sitting centre but the red one was off centre and when I tried to do a 360 all round the marker were not together nor did any of the 2 touch the bottom corners of the test screen.

the rudder test below this was the same, green marker was centre but the red was off centre to the left. When I twisted the stick round all the way to the right both markers went to the far right hand side of the rudder test, but when I let go of the stick the green one was just to the left of centre and the red left of that and they were moving back and forth with me not touching the stick. When I twisted the stick all the way round to the left both rudder markers only went about halfway and not one on top of the other as Iguees they should be!


The thing is I got the stick about 2 years ago and have hardly used it, I don't know if it was because it was lying in a box with the handle to one side? or age but I can't see it being that as I said I hardly ever used it!

But I guess there is something wrong with it, now I followed the read-me and change the settings for axis and rudder settings and even though that move the axis markers to go one on top of the other so I could only see the green on, it never helped with the rudder one.

Even so I still had trouble with the stick I guess, I read the Gamepro review and it said there that the planes were twitchy ...

"Stalls seem to be determined by a certain threshold level rather than the actual characteristics of the planes in real life; Zeroes, known for their gentle stalls that dip the nose, has jarring rolling stalls just as an F4U, especially in the later A6M5 variants--only difference being the speed at which the snap starts, rather than the angle of attack or the physics involved (such as a shifting boundary layer). Suggested joystick sensitivity inputs help somewhat, but the aircraft themselves still feel twitchy. AI planes especially still move like UFOs, darting and snapping in impossibly agile turns--and still problematically running into each other and into the ground in spurts of inexplicable empty-headedness."


http://www.gamepro.com/computer/pc/games/reviews/39332.shtml

So Im wondering is it my stick or the flight physics?


Can these joystick be reset by the makers (for a fee /$ of course or is a new one?

Nige_Reconman
11-09-2004, 03:22 PM
Configure your joystick in windows first and see if it improves. Search the control panel for "controllers" or type dxdiag in the run box and access the diagnotic tools from there and under controllers calibrate it.

Can you test it on any other games at all?

walsh2509
11-09-2004, 03:30 PM
Lock On I can seem to fly level even changing speed (which I don't in PF constant speed ) but in LO when I hit the Trim it brings the nose down and stay level for ages in level flight. I know the jets in LO are modern and are computer aided, but even so I was getting climb in that to until I found the Trim button once I hit that I got level and stayed level, but in PF I get level hit Neutral Trim in that and as soon as I ease the pressure on the stick the plane starts to climb.

But thanks for the info I'll give it a try!

Nige_Reconman
11-09-2004, 03:34 PM
If it works in Lock On though it seems to point to a software error and not a problem with the joystick.

Unless say you don't use the rudder in lomac but use it in IL2 which could indicate an axis that is damaged - ie if it was a twist stick etcetera.

killer2359
11-09-2004, 07:07 PM
I've got a Logitech Extreme3D Pro (USB) and have also been having problems with overcontrolling/twitchiness. I'm fairly sure that it only manifests itself if some trim is wound in - which is necessary immediately upon entering flight and then constantly after that for comfort - but if I persevere without trim I'm sure there's less twitchiness. I personally suspect that the implementation of trim in the FM might be flawed and it effectively zero's the control with the relevant surface in the required "trimmed" position but the controller mapping reads this new zero position in terms of where the flying surface new position is in relation to original neutral (ie. rather than resetting it completely as a new neutral) - so as soon as you move the stick you're operating along an extrapolated/interpolated line from where your stick centre is to a mapped position well away from "true" centre as it initially stood before any trimming was carried out (ie. imagine the first value in the controller map being 15 or 20 rather than the default 10 or suggested 0) - result: VERY tiny/careful inputs result in a limited fine control but just a bit more and BANG you can end up with at best very large response and twitchiness/snatchiness - ie. making lining up shots really hard - and at worst instant snap stalls etc. - very frustrating.

And recently - ie. just last night - I've struck the same situation with the red/green indicators in the setup screen except mine is jumping off to the right - and these abberations are also manifest in the game - ie. aircraft twitching itself over into rolls to the right.

In the game controller section in Control Panel everything appears fine with the stick - the axis indicators are centred and stable and I have no problems with other games.

I'm actually planning to get a Sidewinder.

VF-29_Sandman
11-09-2004, 07:46 PM
sidewinders isnt made any more. they discontinued them about version 1.22 in fb...give or take. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

APEXERINO
11-09-2004, 08:20 PM
I have a sidewinder pro (Old stick) and was having the same problem with trim.. noticed it was due to stick not recentering just right. I went into the game hardware setup and in "input" took the first slider of each axis and moved it to zero..then just adjusted the next 2 sliders to "split the difference". On the Yaw axis..I just moved the first slider to zero. It worked great for me.. no more trim problems and jitters. Hope this made since. Oh yeah.. I wrote Oleg in for president.

killer2359
11-09-2004, 08:21 PM
walsh2509 - I have the solution to your problem!!! You need to activate Logitech Profiler

To do this you go to Control Panel (ie. from the Start Menu in the Windows Desktop. Then go to Game Controllers and select the Properties button for your joystick - you should have a screen that shows a picture of your joystick and has axis movement indicators. You then click the "About" tab and you'll have a screen that includes a Logitech Profiler button - click on this.

The profiler will put an Icon in the system tray but you can make a selection for this to be hidden (ie. one of the selections available when you right click the icon in the system tray).

In my case just selecting the Profiler, closing it's screen (the x in top rh corner) and hiding the system tray icon and then firing up PF saw my rolling off to the right problem fixed - but I plan on revisiting the profiler to mess with sensitivity settings etc.

I had looked at the Profiler last night and when I closed it must have actually disabled it - have to admit I did get a screen saying something about "you have turned Logitech Profiler off and this may cause your joystick to stop operating correctly" - but of course I ignored this then wondered why my control in the game went to pot - Du-OH!!

I do still think there's a problem with the trim implementation in the FM that makes the controls twitchy but I'll explore the Profiler settings and look at possibility of modifying the controller maps to try and reduce it's impact.

rodion_zero
11-09-2004, 08:55 PM
I have the 3DPRO too, but am experiencing none of your aforementioned problems. I don't even use the Profiler. I merely take time to calibrate it carefully (1 full minute of pushing and pulling the stick and twisting the rudder using the Windows game controller calibration menu) and deliberately each time right before I enter FB+AEP+PF.

-RODION

killer2359
11-09-2004, 09:05 PM
Is your 3DPro a USB one??

Mine is USB and I don't have ANY calibration setting options either in the Control panel game controller or even in the Logitech Profiler (I gather USB operates a bit different to game port type).

I would assume walsh2509 also has USB one.

rodion_zero
11-09-2004, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killer2359:
Is your 3DPro a USB one??

Mine is USB and I don't have ANY calibration setting options either in the Control panel game controller or even in the Logitech Profiler (I gather USB operates a bit different to game port type).

I would assume walsh2509 also has USB one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I have a USB one. I initially was going to use the joystick driver that came with the CD that came with the Joystick but when I found out that there was a newer one off the net, that's what I installed. Here is where I got it:

http://file2.mydrivers.com/input/lgs425enu.exe

Be warned that I'm using WIN98SE!!!

Also, there seems to be a recalibration bug at times, thus you need this to clear up wrong calibration of Logitech Devices:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/downloads/software/US/EN,CRID=1786,contentid=5299,OSID=1,softwareid=5484

Having both those utils I posted really helped me solve my Extreme 3DPRO issues.

-RODION

_1SMV_Pet
11-10-2004, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killer2359:
Is your 3DPro a USB one??

Mine is USB and I don't have ANY calibration setting options either in the Control panel game controller or even in the Logitech Profiler (I gather USB operates a bit different to game port type).

I would assume walsh2509 also has USB one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you install Logitech Profiler you will lose the control panel's calibration tab.
I suggest to not install logitech sw or drivers,
logitech joys are bad enough with MS drivers!

Note: i've had 2 Attack3, 2 Extreme 3D Pro and now i've Logitech Freedom 2.4 -->bad joy.

Appleby93
11-10-2004, 04:01 AM
Microsoft Joysticks work fine. Though I do not have force feed back one, it has never given me any trouble.

killer2359
11-10-2004, 04:46 AM
I'm using WinXP

I guess it's a personal preference which type of driver to use - I use the Profiler and it evidently works well.

I have no problem with the Logitech Profiler - until I accidentally turned it off I didn't even know it was operating - I've had no abberant behaviour or calibration issues (constantly calibrating sounds like far too much hard work to me!!) until I turned the profiler off - and now that it's active again I once again have flawless joystick function - without having to worry about recalibrating regularly.

I do have problems with the PF aircraft constantly varying in trim when maneovering (ie. in a dogfight) - which forces me to be flying with both stick and trim - and in this circumstance I'm striking excessive control response as I attempt to maneover out of any given trimmed condition - causing twitchiness and snap stalls etc. - ie. a small movement causes my aircraft to respond as if the stick has been moved much more than it actually has. I don't think this is a joystick issue - maybe the settings (ie. sensitivity or the in game control map values) - or a flaw in the Flight Model implementation of trimming control - but not a defect with the stick itself.

walsh2509
11-10-2004, 05:44 AM
Thanks guys for all your help!

I have a usb connection (well both in fact but I can plug the usb part of the cable into the yellow pin connection I can use either one, but I use the usb one ). On the Logitech profiler I lost that when I updated to the lastest driver , I though that if I used the latest one it might help my problem so I installed it and the profiler disappeared.

I used the ingame setup but that was off, as in the green and red markers not lining up in the axis and rudder section, but it was the same in the control panel/game profiler in that too the axis was a little off centre and the slider and Z-rotaion (right and left twist for the rudder was off as well, the bar for that would sit in the middle position and when I twisted the stick to the right the bar would come down to the bottom and when I let go it would came back to the centre, but when I twisted the stick to the left the bar would only go halfway to the top just like in the ingame Input test the rudder control would only go halfway to the left).

I have Win XP Home, I used the drivers that came with the stick but update them and got the profile with that update, I then updated again and this update took away the logitech profiler.


I think its two thing the flight models of the planes and the stick too, as I can see in both the ingame stick set up and the PC control panel one that in both the stick is not calibating.

I will have a go and go back to the profiler!

again thanks for all your help!