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stef51
10-06-2010, 07:22 AM
Would that be accurate?

Stef


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v92/stef51/Misc/BBC-Dimensions-ASC500BombBlast.jpg

M_Gunz
10-06-2010, 07:51 AM
No, that's not accurate. It's way too big and the foot per pound rule of thumb is ridiculous as shock waves fall off faster than the inverse cube of the charge weight. Fragments go farther but they also spread up as well as out from point of impact on ground and IIRC there were no high-burst bombs (shells yes, bombs no) in WWII until Hiroshima.

There's YouTube video been linked to here of modern day tests of bomb effects specially made to simulate the Blitz bombings and they were not any kilometer wide blasts.

Primer on modern bombs. (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/bombs.htm)


Blast is caused by tremendous dynamic overpressures generated by the detonation of a high explosive. Complete (high order) detonation of high-explosives can generate pressures up to 700 tons per square inch and temperatures in the range of 3,000 to 4,500º prior to bomb case fragmentation. It is essential that the bomb casing remain intact long enough after the detonation sequence begins to contain the hot gases and achieve a high order explosion. A consideration when striking hardened targets is that deformation of the weapon casing or fuze may cause the warhead to dud or experience a low order detonation. Approximately half of the total energy generated will be used in swelling the bomb casing to 1.5 times its normal size prior to fragmenting and then imparting velocity to those fragments. The remainder of this energy is expended in compression of the air surrounding the bomb and is responsible for the blast effect. This effect is most desirable for attacking walls, collapsing roofs, and destroying or damaging machinery. The effect of blast on personnel is confined to a relatively short distance (110 feet for a 2000 pound bomb). For surface targets blast is maximized by using a general purpose (GP) bomb with an instantaneous fuzing system that will produce a surface burst with little or no confinement of the overpressures generated by excessive burial. For buildings or bunkers the use of a delayed fuzing system allows the blast to occur within the structure maximizing the damage caused by the explosion.

Fragmentation is caused by the break-up of the weapon casing upon detonation. Fragments of a bomb case can achieve velocities from 3,000 to 11,000 fps depending on the type of bomb (for example GP bomb fragments have velocities of 5,000 to 9,000 fps). Fragmentation is effective against troops, vehicles, aircraft and other soft targets. The fragmentation effects generated from the detonation of a high-explosive bomb have greater effective range than blast, usually up to approximately 3,000 feet regardless of bomb size. The fragmentation effect can be maximized by using a bomb specifically designed for this effect, or by using a GP bomb with an airburst functioning fuze.

More detail. (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/warheads.pdf)


For a fixed-weight explosive, the peak pressure and positive impulse decrease with distance
from the explosion. This is due to the attenuation of the blast wave. The rate of attenuation is
proportional to the rate of expansion of the volume of gases behind the blast wave. In other
words the blast pressure is in-inversely proportional to the cube of the distance from the blast
center (1/R3). Blast attenuation is somewhat less than this in-side, approximately 16 charge radii
from blast center. It should also be noted that there will be fragmentation when the warhead
casing ruptures.

Watch film from the Blitz period where one building or two will be rubble and the rest around them still stand.

p-11.cAce
10-06-2010, 08:07 AM
Typical BS - they put this crap out there so people think the blitz was far worse than it really was. UK civilian deaths for the entire war were 1/4 of civilian deaths at Dresden in 1 night.

jameson2010
10-06-2010, 09:39 AM
After a rough look around the interweb thingy, I estimate the blast radius shown by the OP to half a mile. Gunz, apologies, but you'll have to do the maths. BTW, and OT they found an allied 500lber in Vienna this morning!

JZG_Thiem
10-06-2010, 10:30 AM
The effective blast radius is definitely much smaller.
However....

Even today (here in germany) a few 1000lb-ers are still found each year. If it happens to be in or near a city center, usually ppl in the order of 15.000 get evacuated around the spot for safety reasons.

But remember: there are peace time safety margins included, to make sure nobody gets killed in case the bomb squad is unsuccesful.

Example:
In June a 500kg Bomb was found in Göttingen. Disarming failed and 3 people died. In advance ca. 7000 people were evacuated around a perimeter of 1000m around the location.
I have made a small image to illustrate (circle with 1000m radius).

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9784/500kgr.jpg

BillSwagger
10-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
No, that's not accurate. It's way too big and the foot per pound rule of thumb is ridiculous as shock waves fall off faster than the inverse cube of the charge weight. Fragments go farther but they also spread up as well as out from point of impact on ground

I take the diagram to include the distance that fragments, no matter how big or small, might travel. This also does not imply that fragments scatter that far in every direction.
Look at the actual footage and draw your own conclusions.
My guess is that bombs were not as destructive as we would think. Sure they leave a hole where they explode. At some point they learned dropping incendiary devices was far more destructive than bombs, however bombs would be used on harder targets like factories and bunkers.

Romanator21
10-06-2010, 01:10 PM
So, you mean to say that a formation of He-111s each carrying 4x SC500s could flatten a city like London in one sortie? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

That blast radius is obviously exaggerated or includes the slightest puff of air one would feel if it went off a kilometer away.

Of course SC 500s were very powerful, but they're not THAT powerful. WWII would be over in a week.

Bremspropeller
10-06-2010, 01:21 PM
Is that possibly airburst + secondary effects?

p-11.cAce
10-06-2010, 02:41 PM
Maybe one of you math guys can use this to work something out. The diagram is for a 1-MT nuclear blast...I'm pretty sure that is 1,000,000 tons of TNT.

http://www.radshelters4u.com/blast3.jpg

M_Gunz
10-06-2010, 05:23 PM
Those German bombs did not do air bursts nor did they flash 10x brighter than the surface of the sun.

They hit into buildings or the ground and from a ground burst the blast has a slight upward angle. If you look at the map there is no clear lane for shrapnel to go any really long distance except possibly over the Thames or along a straight street which if you want to call that radius then go ahead.

Blast Radius... you mean shock wave or fragments? The fragments might go 1000 yards in a clear area but again the fragments would go right over a man standing 100 yards away and they don't just pass through buildings like they aren't there.

Modern day, bomb set on the ground to show damage effects:
Blitz Street Overview (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sImRRPrqMqo)
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And the SC50 tested, it's time for the SC500 only it's a faux, a box with 250kg of TNT, same charge but no shell:

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Yes it's a lot but what that map circle shows, how many blocks? Please.

I see, one yard per pound not one foot per pound but that's not what I was getting at. Bigger charge doesn't scale up to bigger blast linearly, twice the energy does not equal twice the blast radius but less than twice. If it's a matter of public safety then sure, the error is on the side of safe so it makes sense that way. If you want to knock buildings down then you go by other calculations or means.

p-11.cAce
10-06-2010, 08:27 PM
I was just thinking that if 1,000,000 tons of TNT only causes light damage past 7 miles, 1/4 ton surely can't cause much blast damage beyond the immediate impact point.

M_Gunz
10-07-2010, 12:58 AM
Nukes are special case. Their shock wave is not starting with the Mach 7 high explosive train, it is much faster and so bright that it blinds people at 10+ miles in an instant. There were walls in Hiroshima with reverse shadows of people and things that blocked the flash, sharp images. Search around, I didn't see the pictures they showed us in school where you can see how people were caught mid-stride out on the street. No HE bomb does that.

stef51
10-07-2010, 07:28 AM
Thank you for answering my question, though like always, I learn so much from you guys, I appreciate it, especially when you try to learn via "big" sites the real stuff only to find out that they mislead you...

The Blitz street video is quite shocking I must say... :/

Stef

WOLFMondo
10-09-2010, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Typical BS - they put this crap out there so people think the blitz was far worse than it really was. UK civilian deaths for the entire war were 1/4 of civilian deaths at Dresden in 1 night.

I think its meant to take into account falling shrapnel etc which could travel that far. It does actually say shrapnel.

Buzzsaw-
10-09-2010, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Typical BS - they put this crap out there so people think the blitz was far worse than it really was. UK civilian deaths for the entire war were 1/4 of civilian deaths at Dresden in 1 night.

Ahhh.... Revisionism rears its ugly head once more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Would those be the civilian death figures claimed by convicted Neo Nazi Sympathiser and convicted truth twister David Irving in his monumental lie "The Destruction of Dresden" ?

In fact, the civilian deaths at Dresden as estimated by the Nazis themselves were 25,000. British civilian deaths were 67,000 for the war.

And the figures for Germans killed by Allied bombing are tiny by the way compared to the number of civilians killed overall by the Nazis and Japanese. Approx. 50 million Allied civilians died as a result of the genocidal and deliberate practices of the Axis leaders and soldiers, 58% of the war deaths in 1939-45.

That compares to the 4% of war deaths which were Axis civilians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/WorldWarII-DeathsByAlliance-Piechart.png

Ah but of course some prefer to repeat the same old lies over and over again.

The moderators on this board should look more closely at what some people post.

Muddy17
10-10-2010, 12:35 AM
without getting into who lost more.. the blast radi in question was probably measured without buildings and such. It would hit the ground probably at over say 90 mph dig in and explode, shockwave goes up and out and deterioates rapidly when coming into contact with brick and concreat.
The British method was far more destructive by droping 2000lb cookie amongst incindiaries so blasting away the brick and burning the rest.

M_Gunz
10-10-2010, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
Typical BS - they put this crap out there so people think the blitz was far worse than it really was. UK civilian deaths for the entire war were 1/4 of civilian deaths at Dresden in 1 night.

Ahhh.... Revisionism rears its ugly head once more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Would those be the civilian death figures claimed by convicted Neo Nazi Sympathiser and convicted truth twister David Irving in his monumental lie "The Destruction of Dresden" ?

In fact, the civilian deaths at Dresden as estimated by the Nazis themselves were 25,000. British civilian deaths were 67,000 for the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the numbers go it is right. The guy made a mistake as to numbers. That bomb blast radius in London graphic is pushing an impression more than a bit far. A 109 could fire 20mm on approach and technically ALL OF LONDON COULD BE IN DANGER ONE WAY OR ANOTHER! Why not when you're going to drag in total war figures just to play your big card?

Count up traffic deaths and do comparisons, maybe get some perspective from what is tolerated in peacetime.


And the figures for Germans killed by Allied bombing are tiny by the way compared to the number of civilians killed overall by the Nazis and Japanese. Approx. 50 million Allied civilians died as a result of the genocidal and deliberate practices of the Axis leaders and soldiers, 58% of the war deaths in 1939-45.

That compares to the 4% of war deaths which were Axis civilians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/WorldWarII-DeathsByAlliance-Piechart.png

Right. Take the subject to the next level. And the great by far majority of Allied dead were in what country? Oh yeah, Russia. So it goes from correction about The Blitz to TOTALS in one step and then...


Ah but of course some prefer to repeat the same old lies over and over again.

The moderators on this board should look more closely at what some people post.

perhaps they should.

BTW, perhaps the revisionism is in the downplaying -- Kurt Vonnegut was there as a POW and did some hands-on in the clean up. From what he told the numbers were VERY MUCH HIGHER due to the presence of 600,000 refugees in Dresden at that point.


February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

On Shrove Tuesday, February 13, 1945, a flood of refugees fleeing the Red Army 60 miles away had swollen the city's population to well over a million. Each new refugee brought fearful accounts of Soviet atrocities. Little did those refugees retreating from the Red terror imagine that they were about to die in a horror worse than anything Stalin could devise.

...

There was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.

The second raid came at 1:22 a.m. with no warning. Twice as many bombers returned with a massive load of incendiary bombs. The second wave was designed to spread the raging firestorm into the Grosser Garten.


Hard to count bodies when over half the population is newly arrived refugees and in the many cases the bodies were reduced to ashes and sludge. Just get pushy about it and you can reduce the numbers by insisting on 'proof' decades after the fact which is what happened. Funny how people who were there get accused of revisionism and have their accounts banned.

No wonder Vonnegut writes the way he has.

Buzzsaw-
10-10-2010, 02:31 PM
Salute

Amazing what some people who ostensibly are intelligent will say...


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
And the great by far majority of Allied dead were in what country? Oh yeah, Russia.

What exactly is your point here Max? Are you suggesting Russian civilian dead are less important than those from Western countries? They were all killed by Nazis. Sure we know the Nazis considered all Slavs to be 'Untermensch', but I would like to think that the life of a Russian child is as important as the life of a British one.

Or do you disagree?

And of course, while Russians civilians did die in huge numbers, so did Poles, in fact the approx. 5 1/2 million poles who died was a higher percentage of that countries population than any other country in WWII. Accurate estimates for German civilian casualties are approximately 1,000,000, less than 1/5 of that suffered by the Poles alone. Or do the Poles not count either? And lets not forget the Yugoslavians, Czechs, etc.

And while you are willing to denigrate the total civilian deaths suffered by the British, lets remember why those numbers were proportionately lower... Very simply, the British had an airforce and army which could protect them, AND they WERE NOT occupied by the Nazis. If Britain had been, the numbers would have be 10 times the historical figure, as Hitler and his henchmen had all kinds of plans for the extermination of those Britons who they deemed subversive to an occupying army. Those targeted for the extermination camps included all the current members of Parliament, all Union executives, all members of the leading political parties, all Jews, etc. etc.

Hitler certainly made every effort to kill as many British civilians as he could, beginning with the day Blitz, continuing with the night Blitz, then the various 'mini' blitzes, then the V1's, the V2's and all of these were entirely indiscriminate.

It is also wise to consider those Western countries which were occupied, lets remember how many French civilians died, 347,000. Or Dutch, 280,000. Or Belgian, 80,000.

Now lets get to your quotes re. Dresden.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:

[QUOTE]February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city.


Where did you get this nonsense from? I have rarely seen such a parcel of false statements in one quote.

'Hospital City'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Much of this ficticious claim emerges from the post bombing propaganda claims put forward by Josef Goebbels, who also claimed that 200,000 civilians had died.

What are the facts?

There are hundreds of detailed sources out there, but to summarize:

In 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large military factories and workshops in Dresden.

Postwar, the US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report. Their findings:

There were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.

Factories included:

Aircraft components, including the manufacture of 109 parts

Poison gas (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company)

Anti-aircraft and field gun (Lehman)

Optical rangefinding sights (Zeiss Ikon AG)

Electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG)

Gears and differentials for tanks and vehicles (Saxoniswerke)

Electrical gauges (Gebrüder Bassler).

The report also noted considerable numbers of barracks, military camps, and munitions storage depots.

The report also noted two of Dresden's rail routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands. The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.

Far from being defenseless, without AAA protection, in fact, Dresden, which was the 7th largest city in Germany, had a normal complement of heavy and light AAA, totaling over 100 guns.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:

BTW, perhaps the revisionism is in the downplaying -- Kurt Vonnegut was there as a POW and did some hands-on in the clean up. From what he told the numbers were VERY MUCH HIGHER due to the presence of 600,000 refugees in Dresden at that point.

So you are suggesting the observations of a single POW, who had considerable restrictions as to his movements are more accurate than detailed analysis by both Nazi, Postwar Federal German, and Western sources?

By the way, there was more than one American POW in the city.

Colonel Harold E. Cook was a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks.


"I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."

But let's deal with the actual Government reports:

Nazi Municipal Authorities

Tagesbefehl (Order of the Day) no. 47 ("TB47") issued on 22 March the number of dead recovered by that date was 20,204, including 6,865 who were cremated on the Altmarkt square, and the total number of deaths was expected to be about 25,000. Another report on 3 April put the number of corpses recovered at 22,096. The municipal cemetery office recorded 21,271 victims of the raids were buried in the city cemeteries.

Nazi Propaganda Ministry

On February 16t, the Propaganda Ministry issued a press release that stated that Dresden had no war industries; it was a city of culture.

On 25 February, a new leaflet with photographs of two burned children was released under the title "Dresden — Massacre of Refugees," stating that 200,000 had died.

The release was sent to newspapers in neutral states. Stockholm Svenska Morgonbladet used phrases such as "privately from Berlin," to explain where they had obtained the figures.

British Historian Frederick Taylor states that "there is good reason to believe that later in March copies of — or extracts from — an official police report were leaked to the neutral press by Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry ... doctored with an extra zero to make the total dead from the raid 202,040." On 4 March, Das Reich, a weekly newspaper founded by Goebbels, published a lengthy article emphasizing the suffering and destruction of a cultural icon, without mentioning any damage the attacks had caused to the German war effort.

German Federal Government

An investigation postwar concluded the initial municipal estimates were generally accurate.

---

Were there civilians killed at Dresden? Of course, and any civilian deaths were a tragedy.

War is not a pretty thing, and when faced with the destruction of their civilization people have a tendency to react violently.

Did 'Bomber' Harris show a conspicuous callousness towards German civilian losses in his bombing campaign? Yes. Not surprisingly, hard men come to the fore in situations of crisis.

The fact remains though, in the context of the Nazi's genocidal actions, the Western Allies were considerably restrained in their methods of warfare. Considering the overwhelming destructive power which they were able to deploy, the Allies could have made the Holocaust look like child's play and enacted a terrible revenge on the defeated Axis peoples. The fact they didn't despite the clear evidence of huge numbers of civilian deaths inflicted by the Nazis and Japanese is the clearest indication of which side was morally in the right.

Yet despite the overwhelming mountain of fact about WWII which is available, we continue to see deliberately false revisionist views put forward on a regular basis. Far right Neo Nazis in Germany and Hungary try to put Dresden on the same level as the Holocaust in order to accelerate their agenda of hate and chaos. And misinformation is posted on boards like this.

The fact is, we all have a responsibility to inform ourselves about the realities of history in order that those who wish to achieve their despicable ends are blocked.

Monty_Thrud
10-10-2010, 03:27 PM
German report says Dresden firebomb toll was exaggerated (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7066263.ece)

WTE_Galway
10-10-2010, 05:52 PM
remember bombs do not kill people, inappropriate thoughts do

therefore logically ... kill all the people with inappropriate thoughts and there will be no need for bombs

M_Gunz
10-10-2010, 06:20 PM
After dismissing reports of unrecovered bodies as speculation, lowering estimates of how many refugees were there and using wartime census records the politically sensitive figure was arrived at.

How many shovelfuls of ashes equals one corpse and how do you tell ashes of buildings from ashes of people and how do you tell how much ash went up to the sky in the firestorm? So you count names on paper....


The inflated death toll was partly the work of the far-right historian David Irving, who in his 1963 book The Destruction of Dresden called the bombing a deliberate war crime. He based his figures on a Nazi document that reported 202,400 dead: the historian Frederick Taylor said the document had been faked by the Nazis, who had simply added a nought to each total.

Step one: dismiss numbers you don't like on grounds of people you don't like reporting them, and don't say if anyone else said the same, just say "partly the work of". How does Fredrick Taylor know that? Oh yeah, right, you know how all Nazis always lied and they were all Nazis.

And those Allied POWs just outside who also watched?


There was a three-hour pause between the first and second raids. The lull had been calculated to lure civilians from their shelters into the open again. To escape the flames, tens of thousands of civilians had crowded into the Grosser Garten, a magnificent park nearly one and a half miles square.

The second raid came at 1:22 a.m. with no warning. Twice as many bombers returned with a massive load of incendiary bombs. The second wave was designed to spread the raging firestorm into the Grosser Garten.

It was a complete "success." Within a few minutes a sheet of flame ripped across the grass, uprooting trees and littering the branches of others with everything from bicycles to human limbs. For days afterward, they remained bizarrely strewn about as grim reminders of Allied sadism.

At the start of the second air assault, many were still huddled in tunnels and cellars, waiting for the fires of the first attack to die down. At 1:30 a.m. an ominous rumble reached the ears of the commander of a Labor Service convoy sent into the city on a rescue mission. He described it this way:

"The detonation shook the cellar walls. The sound of the explosions mingled with a new, stranger sound which seemed to come closer and closer, the sound of a thundering waterfall; it was the sound of the mighty tornado howling in the inner city."

MELTING HUMAN FLESH
Others hiding below ground died. But they died painlessly--they simply glowed bright orange and blue in the darkness. As the heat intensified, they either disintegrated into cinders or melted into a thick liquid--often three or four feet deep in spots.



February 13/14 1945: Holocaust over Dresden, known as the Florence of the North. Dresden was a hospital city for wounded soldiers. Not one military unit, not one anti-aircraft battery was deployed in the city. Together with the 600.000 refugees from Breslau, Dresden was filled with nearly 1.2 million people. Churchill had asked for "suggestions how to blaze 600.000 refugees". He wasn't interested how to target military installations 60 miles outside of Dresden. More than 700.000 phosphorus bombs were dropped on 1.2 million people. One bomb for every 2 people. The temperature in the centre of the city reached 1600 o centigrade. More than 260.000 bodies and residues of bodies were counted. But those who perished in the centre of the city can't be traced. Approximately 500.000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.


However, what distinguished this raid was the cold-blooded ruthlessness with which it was carried out. U.S. Mustangs appeared low over the city, strafing anything that moved, including a column of rescue vehicles rushing to the city to evacuate survivors. One assault was aimed at the banks of the Elbe River, where refugees had huddled during the horrible night.

In the last year of the war, Dresden had become a hospital town. During the previous night's massacre, heroic nurses had dragged thousands of crippled patients to the Elbe. The low-flying Mustangs machine-gunned those helpless patients, as well as thousands of old men, women and children who had escaped the city.

When the last plane left the sky, Dresden was a scorched ruin, its blackened streets filled with corpses. The city was spared no horror. A flock of vultures escaped from the zoo and fattened on the carnage. Rats swarmed over the piles of corpses.

A Swiss citizen described his visit to Dresden two weeks after the raid: "I could see torn-off arms and legs, mutilated torsos and heads which had been wrenched from their bodies and rolled away. In places the corpses were still lying so densely that I had to clear a path through them in order not to tread on arms and legs."


So what numbers are more right and what numbers are 'revision'? Does it really f-ing matter?

They could only account for 18,000 to 25,000 so that's all that died. Can we get back to business now?

Buzzsaw-
10-10-2010, 10:13 PM
Max, keeping on putting up the same quotes, keeping on repeating the same falsehoods, doesn't mean someone is going to believe you.

The groups putting forward the claim of 500,000 dead civilians in Dresden are the far right wing Neo Nazi groups currently active in Germany. There are no facts to support their allegations, their claims have been condemned as gross exaggerations by historians in Germany.

The claims regarding strafing by Mustangs are not supported by the official historical commission established in 2006 to investigate the number of casualties of the bomb attacks. These reported that local bomb disposal services active in 1945 and later were not able to find any bullets or fragments thereof in the vicinity of Dresden that would substantiate the claims of deliberate strafing of civilians in 1945.

M_Gunz
10-10-2010, 10:55 PM
Falsehoods? That's a matter of who you believe isn't it?

Kurt Vonnegut was an American Infantry Scout taken POW who witnessed the bombing. Sound like a Neo Nazi to you?

And oh look, a commission and a group of historians over 50 years later want to make out that if it wasn't in writing, it didn't happen.

Just more political whitewash, IMO. Even with 18000+ dead civilians there was no war crime either because no one was declared guilty at a trial. No record, no event.

Buzzsaw-
10-10-2010, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Falsehoods? That's a matter of who you believe isn't it?

Kurt Vonnegut was an American Infantry Scout taken POW who witnessed the bombing. Sound like a Neo Nazi to you?

And oh look, a commission and a group of historians over 50 years later want to make out that if it wasn't in writing, it didn't happen.

Just more political whitewash, IMO. Even with 18000+ dead civilians there was no war crime either because no one was declared guilty at a trial. No record, no event.

There is no question there was a firestorm in Dresden as a result of the bombing, and many civilians died. Some 25,000 out of a wartime population of approximately 1,000,000.

There is also no question Dresden was a military target, an industrial center which manufactured war material for the Nazis, and a center for transport and military.

There is no question Vonnegut saw many horrific sights and deaths in Dresden, if he was in German occupied Russia, Poland, Yugoslavia, France, etc. etc. during WWII he would have seen 1000 times that many deaths.

If I saw anything like the concern from you regarding the atrocities committed by the Nazis and Japanese during the war as you have for the proportionately tiny number of German civilians killed in Dresden you might have some credibility.

As William Tecumseh Sherman once said: "War is Hell".

The Allies didn't start the war, but they finished it.

Germans who know their history are thankful the victors of WWII were as generous and forgiving as the Western Allies were. If the Hitler and Japanese Militarists had succeeded in their aims, the world would have been a mortuary on a scale which would dwarf the historical casualty figures.

M_Gunz
10-11-2010, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Falsehoods? That's a matter of who you believe isn't it?

Kurt Vonnegut was an American Infantry Scout taken POW who witnessed the bombing. Sound like a Neo Nazi to you?

And oh look, a commission and a group of historians over 50 years later want to make out that if it wasn't in writing, it didn't happen.

Just more political whitewash, IMO. Even with 18000+ dead civilians there was no war crime either because no one was declared guilty at a trial. No record, no event.

There is no question there was a firestorm in Dresden as a result of the bombing, and many civilians died. Some 25,000 out of a wartime population of approximately 1,000,000. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An awfully low number arrived at by a committee. 500,000 is an awfully high number arrived at by a right-winger.
Somewhere in between is probably much closer to truth. 1600 acres of city and park jammed with refugees destroyed, the whole inner city firebombed to 1600 degrees C, even the bomb shelters turned to kilns and oh let's see who we have paperwork on... why there's really 25,000 or less lost!
The firebombs: some were phosphorous and the rest I learned long ago were 1/3rd magnesium castings with thermite cores and 2/3rd aluminum castings with thermite cores. The aluminum once started burns at over 3000 degrees C, the magnesium is about as hot and so is the phosphorous but man the phosphorous is far quicker and spreads like explosive.

1600 acres of jam-packed population doubled from normal city with not enough shelters gets the two strike Hamburg treatment with the desired firestorm and bomb shelter bake results and only 1 in 40 dead? To say different is neo nazi revision? What a joke!


There is also no question Dresden was a military target, an industrial center which manufactured war material for the Nazis, and a center for transport and military.

More BS. The railyards were not hit. The heavy industries were far outside the city, also not hit. What was hit was the china factories, the old historic city, the population stripped of men able to soldier and a huge number of refugees. Military my A$$.


There is no question Vonnegut saw many horrific sights and deaths in Dresden, if he was in German occupied Russia, Poland, Yugoslavia, France, etc. etc. during WWII he would have seen 1000 times that many deaths.

Boy you really get yourself on a roll! One city in one night is nothing because German occupied Russia, Poland, Yugoslavia, France, etc. etc. during WWII was 1000 times as bad as what you will admit. What a shovel-load!


If I saw anything like the concern from you regarding the atrocities committed by the Nazis and Japanese during the war as you have for the proportionately tiny number of German civilians killed in Dresden you might have some credibility.

Either you need to read more or better or your memory is faulting you or like Palin you just make it up as you go. But when you think you're hot, just write whatever sounds good even when it's BS.


As William Tecumseh Sherman once said: "War is Hell".

The Allies didn't start the war, but they finished it.

Funny, I don't agree on the numbers at all yet somehow that transforms into sweet-F-A else with frosting and a cherry on top.


Germans who know their history are thankful the victors of WWII were as generous and forgiving as the Western Allies were. If the Hitler and Japanese Militarists had succeeded in their aims, the world would have been a mortuary on a scale which would dwarf the historical casualty figures.

You forgot the link with the flag flying to the national anthem, scene of Arlington fading into school children pledging the flag, Mom, Apple Pie and then the Red Scare poster on close.

Erkki_M
10-11-2010, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Ahhh.... Revisionism rears its ugly head once more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Would those be the civilian death figures claimed by convicted Neo Nazi Sympathiser and convicted truth twister David Irving in his monumental lie "The Destruction of Dresden" ?

And the figures for Germans killed by Allied bombing are tiny by the way compared to the number of civilians killed overall by the Nazis and Japanese. Approx. 50 million Allied civilians died as a result of the genocidal and deliberate practices of the Axis leaders and soldiers, 58% of the war deaths in 1939-45.

The moderators on this board should look more closely at what some people post.

Uh oh. Lol.

Agreed 100% with the last paragraph. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

EDIT: now waiting to be recognized as a Neo Nazi Symphatizer by another 3-A4 long post that ends in a waving candywrapper flag .gif.

EDIT2: now that we're at it, might as well quote Wikipedia myself.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d1/World_War_II_Casualties.svg/800px-World_War_II_Casualties.svg.png

Bremspropeller
10-11-2010, 07:40 AM
Just more political whitewash, IMO

Bingo.

Kurfurst__
10-11-2010, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Cvilian casualties are approximately 1,000,000, less than 1/5 of that suffered by the Poles alone. Or do the Poles not count either? And lets not forget the Yugoslavians, Czechs, etc.

And while you are willing to denigrate the total civilian deaths suffered by the British, lets remember why those numbers were proportionately lower... Very simply, the British had an airforce and army which could protect them, AND they WERE NOT occupied by the Nazis.

It goes both ways though. German civillian casulties would have been even higher, had there not have been a German Air Force preventing accomplishing what Bomber Command and Arthur Harris intended.


Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Hitler certainly made every effort to kill as many British civilians as he could, beginning with the day Blitz, continuing with the night Blitz, then the various 'mini' blitzes, then the V1's, the V2's and all of these were entirely indiscriminate.

Certainly they were, but the full story is that civillian deaths were largely a collateral side effect of an otherwise rather restrained strategic bombing campaign during the 1940/41 Blitz, and the many mini Blitzes, V-1/2 raids were retalitary response to the British area bombing campaign that aimed openly (see Area Bombing directive of BC, early 1942) to wage an indiscriminate war of terror.

As a matter of fact, until 1942 and the Area Bombing directive issued, both the Luftwaffe and the RAF was rather restrained in their target selection, though it was obviously not seen so by the other side at the time. It was due to the inherent inaccuracy of bombing, especially in the case of Bomber Command, lacking proper night bombing techniques and technology until mid-war, bombed targets of military importance in theory, and indiscriminately in practice as for they some time they could hardly find a city in Germany, let alone the target in the city they were supposed to aim their bombs at. The gloves came off after that, and the arrival of Harris.


It is also wise to consider those Western countries which were occupied, lets remember how many French civilians died, 347,000. Or Dutch, 280,000. Or Belgian, 80,000.

The problem is, only a tiny fraction of this occured directly related to occupation, and most were suffered in relation to military operations, least of them likely in the quick German offensive in 1940, then during the years Allied (predominantly British) air power kept bombing these areas for the lack of a better idea, and finally in 1944 when the Allied armies made these areas a battleground again in 1944/45. Pierre Clostermann has a few very unkind words for Allied bomber barons and their attitude towards French civillian casulties in his book.


Where did you get this nonsense from? I have rarely seen such a parcel of false statements in one quote.

'Hospital City'. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif Much of this ficticious claim emerges from the post bombing propaganda claims put forward by Josef Goebbels, who also claimed that 200,000 civilians had died.

What are the facts?

There are hundreds of detailed sources out there, but to summarize:

In 1944, the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large military factories and workshops in Dresden.
Postwar, the US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report. Their findings:
There were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.

Factories included:

Aircraft components, including the manufacture of 109 parts
Poison gas (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company)
Anti-aircraft and field gun (Lehman)
Optical rangefinding sights (Zeiss Ikon AG)
Electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch & Sterzel AG)
Gears and differentials for tanks and vehicles (Saxoniswerke)
Electrical gauges (Gebrüder Bassler).

The report also noted considerable numbers of barracks, military camps, and munitions storage depots.

The report also noted two of Dresden's rail routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands. The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.

All the more reason to bomb these indeed valid military targets and military industry located in the perimeters of the city. Civilians would die in the process still, but far fewer of them, with greater damage have been done to the German military itself.

Instead, Allied planners they ignored these targets and send all bombers to the city centre, to maximize civillian casulties.

Kurfurst__
10-11-2010, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Buzzsaw-:
Salute

Far right Neo Nazis in Germany and Hungary try to put Dresden on the same level as the Holocaust in order to accelerate their agenda of hate and chaos. And misinformation is posted on boards like this.

The fact is, we all have a responsibility to inform ourselves about the realities of history in order that those who wish to achieve their despicable ends are blocked.

And I think you just earned your permaban with this...

Kurfurst__
10-11-2010, 08:39 AM
Returning to the question posed by the OR... effect of various size of bombs in ground (instant / delayed fuse)

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e133/Kurfurst/b_1.jpg

So the newspaper of course exaggrevates, but keep in mind that fragments can fly many, many hundred meters away. And although the chances are small, who really would want to be responsible when a random fragment from some 70 year old leftover pile of junk bomb splits a baby's skull in half in the hands of his/her mama 500 meters away...? Because then the press could really write about something.. and BTW you'd be done for life, both professionally and from the human POV. Its not a memory anyone would want to carry.

JtD
10-11-2010, 08:39 AM
Sorry for posting something relevant to the original question:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/bombradius.jpg

You can get a lot of info on US bombs if you search for "terminal ballistic data" here (http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOFIELD1=CISOSEARCHALL&CISORESTMP=%2Fcdm4%2Fresults.php&CISOVIEWTMP=%2Fcdm4%2Fitem_viewer.php&CISOMODE=grid&CISOGRID=thumbnail%2CA%2C1%3Btitle%2CA%2C1%3Bcreat o%2CA%2C1%3Bdescri%2C200%2C1%3Bnone%2CA%2C0%3B20%3 Btitle%2Ccreato%2Cdate%2Cnone%2Cnone&CISOBIB=title%2CA%2C1%2CN%3Bsubjec%2CA%2C0%2CN%3Bd escri%2C200%2C0%2CN%3Bnone%2CA%2C0%2CN%3Bnone%2CA% 2C0%2CN%3B20%3Btitle%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone&CISOTHUMB=20+%284x5%29%3Btitle%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnon e%2Cnone&CISOTITLE=20%3Btitle%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone&CISOHIERA=20%3Bsubjec%2Ctitle%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone&CISOBOX1=%22terminal+ballistic+data%22&CISOROOT=all&CISOSTART=1,181).

blairgowrie
10-11-2010, 10:02 AM
Looks like this is staring to get very personal and it has wandered off the original topic.