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View Full Version : This may be old news but not to me so (I think) ... Bf-109 lovers grab a towel..



Bearcat99
05-29-2009, 07:19 PM
Now I am a Mustang man myself... but I have to admit... that Bf-109 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw&feature=rec-HM-r2) is a sexy beast for sure....

I may have seen this already but dagnabbit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif I can't remember if I did or not.. so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

danjama
05-29-2009, 07:31 PM
Yea we've seen this before you senile old fool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Only jesting, amazing plane though and amazing video, even to watch again!

stalkervision
05-29-2009, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Now I am a Mustang man myself... but I have to admit... that Bf-109 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw&feature=rec-HM-r2) is a sexy beats for sure....

I may have seen this already but dagnabbit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif I can't remember if I did or not.. so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif


Great video I haven't seen before Bearcat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif wish I knew German.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Your scaring me with this new fascination with the 109 though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Getting ready for Storm Of War I bet.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Na. you would surely fly "Spit-fries." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
05-29-2009, 07:55 PM
Btw I have seen other warbirds fly but nothing flies quite the same as a 109. We have a 108 here and it flies like it bigger brother exactly.

wish SOW would have a flyable 108!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Waldo.Pepper
05-29-2009, 08:09 PM
And then they booted the old girl around a little just to show off how tough she still is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...xt_from=PL&index=112 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNwX5oU5uE&feature=PlayList&p=EF7739AF6548FED1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=112)

stalkervision
05-29-2009, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
And then they booted the old girl around a little just to show off how tough she still is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...xt_from=PL&index=112 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNwX5oU5uE&feature=PlayList&p=EF7739AF6548FED1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=112)

landing gear failures were endemic in the 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

triad773
05-29-2009, 09:16 PM
Thanks for posting BC! I have some German inlaws and they will luvs that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm liking it too- my fav German mount http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
BTW- too bad landing gear/eqt failures aren't modelled- it'd be cool.

Cheers

Happy Friday night http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Triad

Bearcat99
05-29-2009, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
Btw I have seen other warbirds fly but nothing flies quite the same as a 109. We have a 108 here and it flies like it bigger brother exactly.

wish SOW would have a flyable 108!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Your scaring me with this new fascination with the 109 though.


Every single year for tha last 3 or 4 something has happened and the 109 fro Canada couldnt make it to the airshow I was at. Nahhh not to worry.. I am a Mustang man.. but when I fly German I prefer the 109 over the 190.

WTE_Ibis
05-29-2009, 11:18 PM
That's a nice landing in the first clip, I can't get them quite that good in the sim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


.

stalkervision
05-30-2009, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Btw I have seen other warbirds fly but nothing flies quite the same as a 109. We have a 108 here and it flies like it bigger brother exactly.

wish SOW would have a flyable 108!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Your scaring me with this new fascination with the 109 though.


Every single year for tha last 3 or 4 something has happened and the 109 fro Canada couldnt make it to the airshow I was at. Nahhh not to worry.. I am a Mustang man.. but when I fly German I prefer the 109 over the 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so will you primarily fly a spitfire in SOW or a 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

JG52Karaya-X
05-30-2009, 08:13 AM
For all non-German speakers, this is what the guy at 0:22 goes on to tell about this particular machine (a Bf109G-4 btw)


We can run at circa 1300PS, so about 2/3rd power maximum. The engine is normally designed for 1475PS at full power, but we dont need that as we're about 500kg lighter due to the armament and the supplementary units to the armament. Therefore we have a maximum takeoff weight of around 2.7 tons and thus we can reduce power. The takeoff and landing characteristics are as a result also much better than on the original aircraft because we're dealing with a lower weight

So seems like they are running the DB605A at 1.3ata, 1310PS at takeoff!

Beautiful aircraft really, hope to see it inflight at this years AirPower in Zeltweg, Austria!

Bearcat99
05-30-2009, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Btw I have seen other warbirds fly but nothing flies quite the same as a 109. We have a 108 here and it flies like it bigger brother exactly.

wish SOW would have a flyable 108!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Your scaring me with this new fascination with the 109 though.


Every single year for tha last 3 or 4 something has happened and the 109 fro Canada couldnt make it to the airshow I was at. Nahhh not to worry.. I am a Mustang man.. but when I fly German I prefer the 109 over the 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so will you primarily fly a spitfire in SOW or a 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably both for a while...

stalkervision
05-30-2009, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
For all non-German speakers, this is what the guy at 0:22 goes on to tell about this particular machine (a Bf109G-4 btw)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We can run at circa 1300PS, so about 2/3rd power maximum. The engine is normally designed for 1475PS at full power, but we dont need that as we're about 500kg lighter due to the armament and the supplementary units to the armament. Therefore we have a maximum takeoff weight of around 2.7 tons and thus we can reduce power. The takeoff and landing characteristics are as a result also much better than on the original aircraft because we're dealing with a lower weight

So seems like they are running the DB605A at 1.3ata, 1310PS at takeoff!

Beautiful aircraft really, hope to see it inflight at this years AirPower in Zeltweg, Austria! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks for the translation buddy. Worth hearing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

stalkervision
05-30-2009, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Btw I have seen other warbirds fly but nothing flies quite the same as a 109. We have a 108 here and it flies like it bigger brother exactly.

wish SOW would have a flyable 108!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Your scaring me with this new fascination with the 109 though.


Every single year for tha last 3 or 4 something has happened and the 109 fro Canada couldnt make it to the airshow I was at. Nahhh not to worry.. I am a Mustang man.. but when I fly German I prefer the 109 over the 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so will you primarily fly a spitfire in SOW or a 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably both for a while... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

with all the gas you can carry in your Mustang having the "red light" come on in your 109 will be a totally new and unexpected experience for you. I actually had this happen the other day in a 1 v 1 battle with a spit. I had to dive away and head for for the coast of France. Too agressive use of the throttle I fear. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VW-IceFire
05-30-2009, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Btw I have seen other warbirds fly but nothing flies quite the same as a 109. We have a 108 here and it flies like it bigger brother exactly.

wish SOW would have a flyable 108!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Your scaring me with this new fascination with the 109 though.


Every single year for tha last 3 or 4 something has happened and the 109 fro Canada couldnt make it to the airshow I was at. Nahhh not to worry.. I am a Mustang man.. but when I fly German I prefer the 109 over the 190. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Come to the Russel Group Airshow next weekend in Welland (near Niagara Falls). Its where that 109E lives....fantastic sight!

Choctaw111
05-30-2009, 09:16 AM
Both the DB and the Merlin sound so good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

JG53Frankyboy
05-30-2009, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Now I am a Mustang man myself... but I have to admit... that Bf-109 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgYkfq9OVw&feature=rec-HM-r2) is a sexy beast for sure....

I may have seen this already but dagnabbit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif I can't remember if I did or not.. so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

i saw/heard it life , i was on that airshow http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

the miracle is, that after its awfull crash (some time after that show) , this "Red 7" is flying again with the Messerschmitt Stiftung http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EVERY flying Warbird , if one like it in this game or not,and the people making this possible deserve a CHAPEAU !!

looking forward to Duxford 2009 , just a few weeks to go. THAT will be also a miracle weekend http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JZG_Thiem
05-30-2009, 09:53 AM
I was at this airshow as well (which happend to be only 15km from where i live http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif )

We were all talking to the guys, but finally a friend of mine grabbed my digicam, handed it to one of the three owners and asked for soem closeup pics.
This guy then climbed up into the cockpit.
Result below..

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4896/im0002032.jpg

freakvollder
05-30-2009, 10:05 AM
Yes a very nice video http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I love it to hear the sound!

stalkervision
05-30-2009, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
I was at this airshow as well (which happend to be only 15km from where i live http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif )

We were all talking to the guys, but finally a friend of mine grabbed my digicam, handed it to one of the three owners and asked for soem closeup pics.
This guy then climbed up into the cockpit.
Result below..

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4896/im0002032.jpg


great picture! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

slipBall
05-30-2009, 02:58 PM
Very nice thanks...next time that I hear that sound, I hope that I'm playing BOB

icrash
05-30-2009, 03:35 PM
Well the in-line warbirds are prettier for sure but there's just something about the sound of radials that's a thrill.

mortoma
05-30-2009, 04:48 PM
In some ways the sim is accurate because you can easily land the sim 109 in a 3 point exactly like that. The IL2 109 seems very balanced on landing and unlike a lot of aircraft is not close to dropping a wing when you hit 3 point.

dadada1
06-02-2009, 11:28 AM
Walter Eichhorn did a pretty good job of minimising damage to the propeller and engine.

Manu-6S
06-02-2009, 01:57 PM
June 26 and 27...

http://www.airpower09.at/EN/#/en/home/

Red 7 is there.

dadada1
06-02-2009, 02:16 PM
Probably been posted before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lzrc&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nj77mJlzrc&feature=related)

The first landing is pretty hairy and he's lucky to get away with it.

redhornet07
06-02-2009, 09:07 PM
That video is really cool. I hadn't realized until watching it how authentic the sounds are with the AAA uber patch, very very cool.

stalkervision
06-02-2009, 09:11 PM
I always wanted to see a 109's inertia starter being cranked up but they have all switched to onboard aircraft starters.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Gammelpreusse
06-03-2009, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
I always wanted to see a 109's inertia starter being cranked up but they have all switched to onboard aircraft starters.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7X_0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUcENor7X_0&feature=related)

here you go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ext_from=PL&index=40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5LBUVS1T8&feature=PlayList&p=82414F182C73D7CA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=40)

something else in the engine start department.

waffen-79
06-03-2009, 02:17 AM
awesome videos guys, thanks

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


regards

Gammelpreusse
06-03-2009, 02:48 AM
np

here, have a g10 =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=447zUWWnJmI

stalkervision
06-03-2009, 05:04 AM
Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I always wanted to see a 109's inertia starter being cranked up but they have all switched to onboard aircraft starters.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7X_0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUcENor7X_0&feature=related)

here you go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ext_from=PL&index=40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5LBUVS1T8&feature=PlayList&p=82414F182C73D7CA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=40)

something else in the engine start department. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks buddy. The fw-190d9 is a BEAST! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gammelpreusse
06-03-2009, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I always wanted to see a 109's inertia starter being cranked up but they have all switched to onboard aircraft starters.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7X_0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUcENor7X_0&feature=related)

here you go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ext_from=PL&index=40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5LBUVS1T8&feature=PlayList&p=82414F182C73D7CA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=40)

something else in the engine start department. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks buddy. The fw-190d9 is a BEAST! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More to the ground crew then to the Ponys sitting next http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

dadada1
06-03-2009, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
I always wanted to see a 109's inertia starter being cranked up but they have all switched to onboard aircraft starters.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...7X_0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUcENor7X_0&feature=related)

here you go http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ext_from=PL&index=40 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y5LBUVS1T8&feature=PlayList&p=82414F182C73D7CA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=40)

something else in the engine start department. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks buddy. The fw-190d9 is a BEAST! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its actually THE D13, but the start proceedure is the same.

dadada1
06-08-2009, 05:49 PM
I've never seen this video before, perhaps some of you haven't either, what appears to be Black 6 and Black 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...3oZE&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NX-g4R3oZE&feature=related)

paradoxguy
06-09-2009, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
And then they booted the old girl around a little just to show off how tough she still is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...xt_from=PL&index=112 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtNwX5oU5uE&feature=PlayList&p=EF7739AF6548FED1&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=112)

landing gear failures were endemic in the 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't notice any problems with the pilot's landing approach in the 2nd video; the botched landing seemed solely due to structural failure in the right undercarriage struts. I know that many landings in the Bf 109 were botched because of the narrow undercarriage and the '109's landing characteristics, but I didn't realize how weak the undercarriage structure itself was. By comparison, IIRC, several Luftwaffe pilots have commented in interviews about the high strength of the Fw 190's undercarriage and how it often remained intact even after a ground loop.

wayno7777
06-11-2009, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:

Every single year for tha last 3 or 4 something has happened and the 109 fro Canada couldnt make it to the airshow I was at. Nahhh not to worry.. I am a Mustang man.. but when I fly German I prefer the 109 over the 190.

From what I gather, Bearcat, Ed Russell keeps his plane in Ontario now cause their show is the same weekend. http://www.ragairshow.com/
That's okay cause this year I got to see this;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Airshow%20pics/Airshow6-7-09ReadingPA_159.jpg
And this;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/wayno77/Airshow%20pics/Airshow6-7-09ReadingPA_072.jpg

Gammelpreusse
06-12-2009, 04:41 AM
Neat Ju87 right there. Looks a bit small, however, to be an original or a newly built. Small scale replica?

Kettenhunde
06-12-2009, 09:55 PM
I didn't realize how weak the undercarriage structure itself was. By comparison, IIRC, several Luftwaffe pilots have commented in interviews about the high strength of the Fw 190's undercarriage and how it often remained intact even after a ground loop.

There is no difference in the landing accident rate between the FW-190 and the Bf-109.

Engineering wise, the landing gear of the Bf-109 is strong and stable.

On my home field alone, there has been four complex aircraft gear failures in the last year. That is about average.

Pilot error is the most common cause of landing gear failure.

The specifics of the Bf-109 are covered in detail here:


Crumpp says:
The reputation of the Bf-109 has more to do with sticking 25 hour pilots in an operational type, complex, high performance, tail dragger.


http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...283/m/8051079157/p/2 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/8051079157/p/2)

All the best,

Crumpp

stalkervision
06-12-2009, 10:55 PM
This passage comes from my 109 book. What is "the lysander method" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I can only guess it is the same mythod for landing the British "LYSANDER"


http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/237/scan00018684786.jpg

After reading this I have to conclude IMO that apparently most pilots are landing the 109 wrong!

I have seen more then a few dodgy 109 landings not at all like this on youtube.

wheel landing?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1o4PzGkU4

Kettenhunde
06-13-2009, 01:21 AM
What is "the lysander method"

Sounds like a short field landing.


After reading this I have to conclude IMO that apparently most pilots are landing the 109 wrong!

Pilot error.....

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

All the best,

Crumpp

RegRag1977
06-13-2009, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
This passage comes from my 109 book. What is "the lysander method" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I can only guess it is the same mythod for landing the British "LYSANDER"


http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/237/scan00018684786.jpg

After reading this I have to conclude IMO that apparently most pilots are landing the 109 wrong!

I have seen more then a few dodgy 109 landings not at all like this on youtube.

wheel landing?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1o4PzGkU4

Hey Stalker, what is the reference of this book?

Xiolablu3
06-13-2009, 05:48 AM
I think what you will find with the Bf109 is that landning is very, very unpredictable. That guy who flew it a few times may have got a perfect landing every time. But read this from Mark Hanna who owned a Bf109 Buchon :-


'The '109 is one of the most controllable aircraft that I have flown at slow speed around finals, and provided you don't get too slow is one of the easiest to three point. It just feels right ! THe only problem is getting it too slow. If this happens you end up with a very high sink rate, very quickly and absolutely no ability to check or flare to round out. It literally falls out of your hands !

Once down on three points the aircraft tends to stay down - but this is when you have to be careful. The forward view has gone to hell and you cannot afford to let any sort of swing develop. The problem is that the initial detection is more difficult. The aeroplane is completely unpredictable and can diverge in either direction. There never seems to be any pattern to this. Sometimes the most immaculate three pointer will turn into a potential disaster half way through the landing roll. Other times a ropey landing will roll straight as an arrow !

When we first started flying the '109 both my father and I did a lot of practice circuits on the grass before trying a paved strip. Operating off grass is preferred. Although it is a much smoother ride on the hard, directionally the aircraft is definitely more sensitive. WIthout doubt you cannot afford to relax until you are positively stationary. I would never make a rolling exit from a runway in the '109. It is just as likely to wrap itself up at 25 as it is at 80 mph. Another problem is that you have to go easy on the brakes. Hammer them too early in the landing roll and they will have faded to nothing just when you need them ! The final word of advice is always three point the aircraft and if the wind is such that it makes a three pointer inadvisable it's simple: the aeroplane stays in the hanger !

Having said all this, I like the aeroplane very much, and I think I can understand why many of the Luftwaffe aces had such a high regard and preference for it. Our intention is to eventually re-engine our aeroplane with a Daimler-Benz 605 and convert it to a late '109G or perhaps even a 'K'.'

They did eventually convert it to a 'G', but the engine was produced at the end of the war and as such very unreliable. They had 5 forced landings in only 40 hours of flying with it in with that DB605 engine. (engine failure)

So they converted it back to a Buchon (A Bf109G2 with a Merlin engine).

BTW I like the intro to that interview :-

'Track around the canopy though Nine, Eleven and now Twelve O'clock. Rolling out gently and now the specks are becoming objects and I can see wings and start to discern fuselages and engines. We're at five miles and closing at 420 knots and greater than seven miles a minute. Less than 50 seconds to go. There's the '51 escort high and behind the bombers... Good.... they're not a factor for the initial attack, but we will need to worry about them on the egress. 20 seconds and two miles. I've picked my target - the lead ship... I've misjudged the attack slightly, just missed the dead 180 so I've got a slight crosser which is going to foul up my sighting solution. 10 seconds to run... The B-17's light up ! Flashes from all over the airframes and smoke trails streak behind as the gunners let rip and fill the skies with lead. They're out of range buts its still frightening. The lead ship is filling my windscreen and closing rapidly. Now.... Fire ! Two second burst.... flash... flash... flash... HITS ! all in his cockpit and fuselage area... pull slightly on the control column to just clear the port wing, the fin slicing past just by me and roll hard left. World. B-17s gyrating round, stop inverted... pull 5 G's, nose down, down, down. Streamers pouring from the wingtips. I've lost the P-51's, I can't see them but I know they'll be after us. I'm out of here vertically down with a windscreen full of ground, rolling as I go to miss any pursuing Mustangs' sighting solutions - straight towards the Fatherland... only it isn't - it's Suffolk and Ron's calling... "Jimmy says can we do that one again Mark.. ". This is David Puttnam's Memphis Belle and we are airborne with five B-17's, seven P-51s, three '109's and a B-25. I'm leading the '109 formation. We're short on gas, it's cold at 12,000 feet and this is fantastic, tremendous fun. The Bf 109 is, without doubt, the most satisfying and challenging aircraft that I have ever flown. ' - Mark Hanna


The full text :-

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Do...lying_%20109_ENG.pdf (http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Documenti/Storia/Flying_%20109_ENG.pdf)

Kettenhunde
06-13-2009, 07:50 AM
I think what you will find with the Bf109 is that landning is very, very unpredictable.

Where do you get this impression, Xio?

In fact this is what Mark Hanna says:


'The '109 is one of the most controllable aircraft that I have flown at slow speed around finals, and provided you don't get too slow is one of the easiest to three point. It just feels right !

You focus on the pilot error of:


THe only problem is getting it too slow.

All the best,

Crumpp

Xiolablu3
06-13-2009, 08:22 AM
From this mate :-


Once down on three points the aircraft tends to stay down - but this is when you have to be careful. The forward view has gone to hell and you cannot afford to let any sort of swing develop. The problem is that the initial detection is more difficult. The aeroplane is completely unpredictable and can diverge in either direction. There never seems to be any pattern to this. Sometimes the most immaculate three pointer will turn into a potential disaster half way through the landing roll. Other times a ropey landing will roll straight as an arrow !

Kettenhunde
06-13-2009, 09:32 AM
From this mate :-


First, Cultural thing, while we can be friends, we are not mates. My wife and I are mates. Being mates has a completely different meaning over here. I am sure you would not like the relationship.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hope you are laughing because this was meant to be funny.

About the 109....

While Mark Hanna is correct, it does not have the specific meaning you get from it nor is it some flaw in the Bf-109 design. You are putting a general characteristic that is applicable to all tail draggers and turning into something unique to the Bf-109 series.


Since the center of gravity is behind the taildragger's main landing gear, the airplane does not want to go straight. The tail wants to come around and go in front of you because the center of gravity is pushing from behind.


What makes a taildragger different from an airplane with tricycle gear? There really is only one simple difference. The center of gravity is forward of the main gear on the tricycle gear airplane and behind the main gear of the taildragger.

http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

In a short coupled tail dragger like a Bf-109, Piper Clipper, Pitts, or F4F Wildcat, this characteristic happens faster because our arm is shorter.

Stall Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


3-Point Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


Wheel Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

So what Mark Hanna is saying is the airplane has the same problem all tail draggers experience:

Tail draggers with large engines out front like a WWII Fighter have the added difficulty of the big engine in the front makes it hard to detect those very important initial few degrees of divergence.


The forward view has gone to hell and you cannot afford to let any sort of swing develop. The problem is that the initial detection is more difficult.

You have to focus and pay careful attention. In otherwords:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control



All the best,

Crumpp

squareusr
06-13-2009, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


That, and
Put your seat into the upright position and fasten your seat belt

Gammelpreusse
06-13-2009, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> From this mate :-


First, Cultural thing, while we can be friends, we are not mates. My wife and I are mates. Being mates has a completely different meaning over here. I am sure you would not like the relationship.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hope you are laughing because this was meant to be funny.

About the 109....

While Mark Hanna is correct, it does not have the specific meaning you get from it nor is it some flaw in the Bf-109 design. You are putting a general characteristic that is applicable to all tail draggers and turning into something unique to the Bf-109 series.


Since the center of gravity is behind the taildragger's main landing gear, the airplane does not want to go straight. The tail wants to come around and go in front of you because the center of gravity is pushing from behind.


What makes a taildragger different from an airplane with tricycle gear? There really is only one simple difference. The center of gravity is forward of the main gear on the tricycle gear airplane and behind the main gear of the taildragger.

http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

In a short coupled tail dragger like a Bf-109, Piper Clipper, Pitts, or F4F Wildcat, this characteristic happens faster because our arm is shorter.

Stall Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


3-Point Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


Wheel Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

So what Mark Hanna is saying is the airplane has the same problem all tail draggers experience:

Tail draggers with large engines out front like a WWII Fighter have the added difficulty of the big engine in the front makes it hard to detect those very important initial few degrees of divergence.


The forward view has gone to hell and you cannot afford to let any sort of swing develop. The problem is that the initial detection is more difficult.

You have to focus and pay careful attention. In otherwords:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control



All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So with other words, the problems described are not unique to the 109, but due to it's design (small under carriage, high center of gravity, rather light design) propably more pronounced then on other types?

stalkervision
06-13-2009, 12:09 PM
if he starts his sentences with, "Hay lover..."

that's the time to worry. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


also "shower buddy" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Waldo.Pepper
06-13-2009, 12:46 PM
I uploaded this clip years ago, and posted this to these forums some time ago as well.

He says it is difficult, but this is in comparison to other contemporary planes. Watch the landing - nicely done - no drama.

http://video.google.ca/videopl...-7974038499447579086 (http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7974038499447579086)

Xiolablu3
06-13-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> From this mate :-


First, Cultural thing, while we can be friends, we are not mates. My wife and I are mates. Being mates has a completely different meaning over here. I am sure you would not like the relationship.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hope you are laughing because this was meant to be funny.

About the 109....

While Mark Hanna is correct, it does not have the specific meaning you get from it nor is it some flaw in the Bf-109 design. You are putting a general characteristic that is applicable to all tail draggers and turning into something unique to the Bf-109 series.


Since the center of gravity is behind the taildragger's main landing gear, the airplane does not want to go straight. The tail wants to come around and go in front of you because the center of gravity is pushing from behind.


What makes a taildragger different from an airplane with tricycle gear? There really is only one simple difference. The center of gravity is forward of the main gear on the tricycle gear airplane and behind the main gear of the taildragger.

http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

In a short coupled tail dragger like a Bf-109, Piper Clipper, Pitts, or F4F Wildcat, this characteristic happens faster because our arm is shorter.

Stall Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


3-Point Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


Wheel Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

So what Mark Hanna is saying is the airplane has the same problem all tail draggers experience:

Tail draggers with large engines out front like a WWII Fighter have the added difficulty of the big engine in the front makes it hard to detect those very important initial few degrees of divergence.


The forward view has gone to hell and you cannot afford to let any sort of swing develop. The problem is that the initial detection is more difficult.

You have to focus and pay careful attention. In otherwords:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control



All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi gorgeous http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He is clearly talking about the Bf109 alone, and not all tail draggers.

See how he lands the SPitfire in an almost carefree way :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDM-oku5Wg#t=1m49s

JG52Uther
06-13-2009, 03:22 PM
I think that video is of Red 7 at Oppenheim in 2006? I was there! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
06-13-2009, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> From this mate :-


First, Cultural thing, while we can be friends, we are not mates. My wife and I are mates. Being mates has a completely different meaning over here. I am sure you would not like the relationship.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I hope you are laughing because this was meant to be funny.

About the 109....

While Mark Hanna is correct, it does not have the specific meaning you get from it nor is it some flaw in the Bf-109 design. You are putting a general characteristic that is applicable to all tail draggers and turning into something unique to the Bf-109 series.


Since the center of gravity is behind the taildragger's main landing gear, the airplane does not want to go straight. The tail wants to come around and go in front of you because the center of gravity is pushing from behind.


What makes a taildragger different from an airplane with tricycle gear? There really is only one simple difference. The center of gravity is forward of the main gear on the tricycle gear airplane and behind the main gear of the taildragger.

http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

In a short coupled tail dragger like a Bf-109, Piper Clipper, Pitts, or F4F Wildcat, this characteristic happens faster because our arm is shorter.

Stall Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


3-Point Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


Wheel Landing:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control


http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)

So what Mark Hanna is saying is the airplane has the same problem all tail draggers experience:

Tail draggers with large engines out front like a WWII Fighter have the added difficulty of the big engine in the front makes it hard to detect those very important initial few degrees of divergence.


The forward view has gone to hell and you cannot afford to let any sort of swing develop. The problem is that the initial detection is more difficult.

You have to focus and pay careful attention. In otherwords:


DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control



All the best,

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi gorgeous http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

He is clearly talking about the Bf109 alone, and not all tail draggers.

See how he lands the SPitfire in an almost carefree way :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDM-oku5Wg#t=1m49s </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif good thing dinner isn't ready yet. I'd spit it all over the monitor.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tully__
06-13-2009, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Gammelpreusse:
...

So with other words, the problems described are not unique to the 109, but due to it's design (small under carriage, high center of gravity, rather light design) propably more pronounced then on other types?

You forgot wheel alignment (toe out). This also tends to make any deviation from rolling straight harder to correct.

Kettenhunde
06-13-2009, 10:26 PM
See how he lands the SPitfire in an almost carefree way :-


That is the funniest thing I have read in a while, Xio.

Sorry but his lack of thought or specifics on his thinking while landing just does not stand out.

Maybe if I concentrate harder or if we had that “mate” connection, I could read his mind?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

How about we just stick to the facts about handling a tail dragger and forget about trying to interpret emotions in other people?

Now I only have several hundred hours as PIC in short coupled high performance tail draggers but the checklist is the same no matter what design of conventional gear aircraft you are flying.

It has to do with the physics and not emotion.


Stall Landing Outline

Make normal approach to runway.
By short final, eliminate any drift by lowering the upwind wing and keep the airplane straight with opposite rudder as necessary
Make a normal flare to level flight just inches off the runway
Keep working the stick/yoke back so as to not let the airplane land and keep it a few inches off the runway
Strive to get the stick/yoke all the way back to its stop
Allow the airplane to stall just inches off the runway
Keep the stick back!!!
Keep looking straight down the runway and steer the airplane with the rudders
DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control
Keep the ailerons turned into the wind as necessary
Keep the stick ALL THE WAY back!


Three-Point Landing Outline

Make normal approach to runway.
By short final, eliminate any drift by lowering the upwind wing and keep the airplane straight with opposite rudder as necessary
Make a normal flare to level flight just inches off the runway
Keep working the stick/yoke back so as to not let the airplane land and keep it a few inches off the runway
Strive to attain the exact attitude at which all three wheels will touch at the same time. This attitude will probably be a little shy of the full stall attitude.
Try to hold that attitude with the wheels just inches off the runway until the airplane settles onto the runway.
Once the airplane is solidly one the runway, get and keep the stick back!!!
Keep looking straight down the runway and steer the airplane with the rudders
DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control
Keep the ailerons turned into the wind as necessary
Keep the stick ALL THE WAY back!


Wheel Landing Outline

Make normal approach to runway with normal final approach power
By short final, eliminate any drift by lowering the upwind wing and keep the airplane straight with opposite rudder as necessary
Make a slight flare to near-level flight just inches off the runway, but keep the nose down a little
Let the main wheels settle onto the runway - be patient. Use the elevator control to achieve this
Once the main wheels are one the runway, chop the power and stick it on with a little forward stick/yoke if necessary (often chopping power will be good enough)
Keep looking straight down the runway and steer the airplane with the rudders
Hold the tail up with more and more forward stick/yoke until it settles on its own
DO NOT let your attention drop one instant from maintaining directional control
Keep the ailerons turned into the wind as necessary
Once the tail comes down, immediately bring the stick/yoke all the way back into your gut and keep it there
Keep the stick ALL THE WAY back!

http://www.taildraggers.com/Do...on.aspx?page=Landing (http://www.taildraggers.com/Documentation.aspx?page=Landing)


You forgot wheel alignment (toe out).

The gear geometry is set up by the designer to provide safe landing and ground control. Properly adjusted and maintained it will accomplish this feat.

The toe in or toe out debate continues amongst tail dragger pilots. Why? It is up to the designer on how he sets the specifics of the landing gear to achieve safe handling and control for that specific design.


there seems to be many
| schools of thought asto whether the main gear on a taildragger should
| toe in or out and how much????


Toe out has a
small "crosswind gear" effect.


I think a small amount of toe out is desirable on more short
coupled aircraft that need all the stabilizing help they can get.

http://www.aviationbanter.com/...p=440308&postcount=5 (http://www.aviationbanter.com/showpost.php?p=440308&postcount=5)

All the best,

Crumpp