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View Full Version : OT: UK to be Island of Dr. Moreau?



triad773
09-05-2007, 10:44 PM
See
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070905/sc_nm/britain_embryo_dc
Discuss

Waldo.Pepper
09-05-2007, 10:56 PM
" What is the law?" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DKoor
09-05-2007, 11:05 PM
wow

Friendly_flyer
09-05-2007, 11:42 PM
While I'm all for genetic research, I'm not quite sure what they hope to get out of putting the human DNA sequence into an animal cell. What you'd end up with is really a human cell with animal mitochondria. Unless they think Parkinsons and senility is somehow connected to the workings of the mitochondria (that would be news to me), I can't see the point.

Waldo.Pepper
09-05-2007, 11:51 PM
"Not to hunt men!"

Whirlin_merlin
09-06-2007, 01:04 AM
UK to be Island of Dr.Moreau?

No.

Next question.

Seriously this is not as wow as it seems quite mundane really. Man-pigs will not be roving the land trying to violate your daughters and eat your neighbours.

By the way Friendly Flyer the finger of suspicion has recently been turning on the mitochondrion for many conditions. However I don't think that has anything to do with what's happening here, I suspect its more about ease of cell culture, manipulation and a way to exploite a few 'legal loopholes'.
As someone who has witnessed the affects of Parkinsons at close hand I fully welcome any research that may help.

Waldo.Pepper
09-06-2007, 01:06 AM
"Not to eat meat."

Friendly_flyer
09-06-2007, 01:54 AM
Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
I suspect its more about ease of cell culture, manipulation and a way to exploite a few 'legal loopholes'.
As someone who has witnessed the affects of Parkinsons at close hand I fully welcome any research that may help.

The "ease of manipulation" seems a reasonable explanation. Mammal cells are notoriously fickle.

My grandmother died of senility (it's actually possible), I'm all for research on this matter too.

From the article:
Josephine Quintavalle, of pro-life group Comment on Reproductive Ethics, told BBC radio that reproduction between human and animal broke an "absolute taboo."

This is an often met argument, but in the light of knowledge it's not a valid one. Vira and even bacteria drags bits of DNA back and forth among organisms. There are bits and bobs of genes from various other organisms in our DNA, brought there by mother nature all of her own. Early work on phylogeny based on DNA was often flawed because the extent of genetic transposition was not even guessed at.

F19_Orheim
09-06-2007, 02:31 AM
"Scientists in China, the United States and Canada have already carried out similar work."

ViktorViktor
09-06-2007, 03:36 AM
Friendly Flyer wrote:

Vira and even bacteria drags bits of DNA back and forth among organisms. There are bits and bobs of genes from various other organisms in our DNA, brought there by mother nature all of her own.

The sexual act boils down to an exchange of genes between 2 (or more) organisms, doesn't it? Is it possible that a mygg or mosquitio injects some its Dna into me when it 'bites' me ? If this is so, can I justifiably cry out 'Rape!' everytime I get bit ?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
Just wondering.

Whirlin_merlin
09-06-2007, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by ViktorViktor:

The sexual act boils down to an exchange of genes between 2 (or more) organisms, doesn't it? Is it possible that a mygg or mosquitio injects some its Dna into me when it 'bites' me ? If this is so, can I justifiably cry out 'Rape!' everytime I get bit ?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


That's why I hate flowers, sticking their sex cells up my nose, dirty perverts. No wonder it makes me sneeze.

Some of the so called junk DNA in our genome got there by hitching a ride with a viral genome.

raaaid
09-06-2007, 04:01 AM
i hope they get inmortality before is my time

x6BL_Brando
09-06-2007, 05:33 AM
i hope they get inmortality before is my time

Well, yes, I kinda like the idea of you contributing to an eternal forum - but don't you think we'd better come up with real space-travel and colonise a few planets first?

Or would we first have to sterilise absolutely everyone? Population growth & immortality seem to go hand-in-hand towards disaster otherwise.

And we'd need the room, even if we could have pigs that said "excuse me" when they grunted and dogs that carry their own plastic bags & little shovels.

Seriously though - I can only agree with Friendfly Flyer's "....someone who has witnessed the affects of Parkinsons at close hand...fully welcom[ing] any research that may help." comment regarding the morality of the research and its humanitarian aims. I can assure anyone that the ethical issue is very closely monitored and tested.

Finally, it's worth noting that this kind of research wouldn't be necessary if we could just get past the idea that the creation of a human is somehow 'miraculous' rather than just another biological mechanism.

B.

HotelBushranger
09-06-2007, 05:49 AM
While I'm for medical advances, I'm also wary of these sort of things for two reasons: I believe people should accept their situation, the idea of losing an arm and then regrowing one just isn't cricket to me. Yes my opinion may change when a family relative dies of some disease, but at least at the moment that's where I stand. The other reason is that the world is already chockas; extending the life expectancy to an already overcrowded world is going to present a whole new range of problems.

DuxCorvan
09-06-2007, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i hope they get inmortality before is my time

Then start searching it yourself. I suggest you the Qin Shi formula for immortality:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang#Death_and_aftermath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang#Death_and_aftermath/)

x6BL_Brando
09-06-2007, 09:14 AM
the idea of losing an arm and then regrowing one just isn't cricket to me.

Sh1t, you got me stumped there HB! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif It sounds like a bloody good idea to me, but I'm biased..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

B

raaaid
09-06-2007, 09:15 AM
that ho chi ming like you had no idea on alchemy and got what deserved

alchemy is the search for enlightement or what is the same the rediscovery of inmortality through rememnbering your past lifes

what alchemist did why couldnt be done by science?

then its a matter of time to colonize other worlds, ill do my best for it

i wont have mercury pills like you suggest me

instead i just inventa method to achieve enlightment trough syncroniztion of both brain hemispheres

of course im not telling you,youwould make no good use of it

neural_dream
09-06-2007, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
instead i just inventa method to achieve enlightment trough syncroniztion of both brain hemispheres

of course im not telling you,youwould make no good use of it
I'm sure your CV is full of inventions and approved patents.

DuxCorvan
09-06-2007, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
that ho chi ming like you had no idea on alchemy and got what deserved

alchemy is the search for enlightement or what is the same the rediscovery of inmortality through rememnbering your past lifes

Alchemists were the chemists of their time, the same as barbers were dentists and surgeons. And like the barbers, they sure did a rude work.


what alchemist did why couldnt be done by science?

And they did... kill people? That can be done by science, yes.


then its a matter of time to colonize other worlds, ill do my best for it

Yeah, I'm ready to make a lot of little future colonizers myself.


i wont have mercury pills like you suggest me

Wise election, my friend.


instead i just inventa method to achieve enlightment trough syncroniztion of both brain hemispheres

So one hemisphere can wait outside in a car, while the other robs the bank?


of course im not telling you, you would make no good use of it

I prefer to have my hemispheres working in turns. For example, while my left brain is typing this, the right one is like daaa da da da daaaaa! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But, good luck with your schizo... I mean synchronization, Mr. Faust. Hermes Trismegistus help you. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Low_Flyer_MkVb
09-06-2007, 09:34 AM
Nothing finer than playing with a nice firm pair of hemispheres. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Jediteo
09-06-2007, 11:53 AM
While I do think that some medical advances are good, such as vaccination or better surgical methods, I do think that there is a limit to where we are humans are supposed to interfere. The reluctancy to accept that we are mortal is getting pretty absurd. Crossing Man with animal is accoring to me wrong, it may help us to treat certain illnesses, but we must accept that sooner or later we will all die.

x6BL_Brando
09-06-2007, 12:36 PM
Crossing Man with animal is accoring to me wrong,

An interesting use of capitalisation, that 'M'. I always wonder the animals never get an 'A' when so many of us depend on them for our very survival.

It is also mildly interesting to wonder whether the offspring an animal crossed with homo sapiens will warrant an 'immortal soul'or not.
It would be very interesting if there was any intention of allowing these embryos to acquire sentient life but that's not the purpose.

"Sooner or later we will all die." I think you'll find that nearly all of us are in total agreement with you - but this really isn't about dying. It's all about bringing relief to people who are alive and who will live almost a full human term, locked in a terrible disease. It's for the parents, wives, husbands: all the carers who spend a good part of their own lives watching over their loved ones.

Only 50 years ago we locked people up under the general heading of madness. Now we try to help them in more specialised ways. It's called progress.

B

fordfan25
09-06-2007, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:


Seriously this is not as wow as it seems quite mundane really. Man-pigs will not be roving the land trying to violate your daughters and eat your neighbours.

. i can tell you have never lived in madison county florida LOL

fordfan25
09-06-2007, 12:43 PM
Man-pigs will not be roving the land trying to violate your daughters and eat your neighbours
congat's u made my sig LOL

Whirlin_merlin
09-06-2007, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Man-pigs will not be roving the land trying to violate your daughters and eat your neighbours
congat's u made my sig LOL </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to be of service.

carguy_
09-06-2007, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Jediteo:
While I do think that some medical advances are good, such as vaccination or better surgical methods, I do think that there is a limit to where we are humans are supposed to interfere. The reluctancy to accept that we are mortal is getting pretty absurd. Crossing Man with animal is accoring to me wrong, it may help us to treat certain illnesses, but we must accept that sooner or later we will all die.

Don`t worry.The whole world is based on mortality and would surely collapse if say even every 5th human had the cure for death.It would mean the end for Earth aswell.Immortality is IMO still couple of thousand years away.
Scientists are the kind of people that rarely practice any religion.Science is totally a-moral for some of them so it does not depend on any moral norms.However, they pose to be people logically thinking, calculating.

The entire issue is IMO impossible to discuss.Like with the weapons discussions there are two sides who do not accept others` points.

Personally I see where this might be going.Lots of embrions,lots of live organisms being played with and disposed of like there was no respect towards life whatsoever.However I think that the humanity has been playing with God so long, that from a wider perspective, experimenting on animal cells with human ones don`t shock me at all.There`s also a huge potential of something good coming out of this so I`d go with it.

triad773
09-07-2007, 06:14 PM
Interesting responses http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I remember seeing the movie "Island of Dr Moreau" years ago. When I heard this one of the first thngs I imagined some country somewhere eventually doing is that they'd go so far as to try and breed "specialized" individuals.

I was considering the darker side of human nature and its penchant for exploit.

I wouldn't imagine the Brits would do anything crazy, but some place else with an agenda of some type might, to my thinking.

Triad

Urufu_Shinjiro
09-07-2007, 06:45 PM
Lots of embrions,lots of live organisms being played with and disposed of like there was no respect towards life whatsoever.

This is where I tend to differ with most of the population, the majority of people (whether they act accordingly or not) consider life to have an intrinsic value, that life is precious. I look around and see the truth, life is a dime a damn dozen, life is freakin' everywhere, you can't swing a dead feline without smacking some life. Human life is no different in the eyes of the universe than the life of that bacteria colony you committed genocide on with that penicillin you took last week. Yes, people suffer when others die, but you must realize that that doesn't imply that it's inherently valuable, it just means we like certain people and it suck when they're gone, no more, no less. So to tell me that we can't conduct certain research that will end a lot of suffering because some dumb clump of cells will be separated from each other a few damn days after they formed is a freakin' travesty. All the ignorant people holding up this type of research for these idiotic, misinformed reasons should be gathered up and shot for the good of humanity. /rant


BTW, Brando, did you actually say stumped?! LOL

Copperhead311th
09-07-2007, 06:48 PM
We intrupt this regulerly scheduled relaxsation with this breif interlude of science.......
1
2
3
4
...........ahh ok back to the great American past time of the recliner, beer, pizza, football and the old lady. lol
you Dan Nye the Scince Guy type carry on.

x6BL_Brando
09-07-2007, 07:01 PM
BTW, Brando, did you actually say stumped?! LOL

Yeah, I couldn't resist it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I went to see a consultant at a pain clinic once. He took a long time reading the case-notes and then looked right at me and said "Right Mr B, I'm going to take a two-handed approach to the problem.!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Luckily I caught a glimpse of the nurse-in-attendance rolling up her eyes in dismay and decided not to try out my left hook on him..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

So, H B caught the snappy comeback that I thought of, as usual, about a week later. He'll get over it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

B

Oh ****, now I've gone and said hook. Ha ha ha.

Ruy Horta
09-08-2007, 04:26 AM
Imortality* will almost certainly become a fact, all evidence points towards it being a genetic "trigger" that can be switched off.

However it will be the moment when humanity will split in between a "few" powerful imortals and the mortal masses.

Earth is too small to support an immortal mankind.

These Olympian gods will be the rulers and elite of the world and the mortals will be as worker bees.

As man is evolving from independant small units (family, tribe and vilage) to ever growing cities and complex social interaction the question arises of controling the masses. Incects do so through chemicals, perhaps we one day will do the same through chemicals and gene manipulation.

The perfect leader, soldier and worker all knowing their place in society.

Not a world I'd like to live in!

*meaning hypothetically continuously regenerating your bodies cell at the rate it does when you are a young fully grown adult.

You'd have to be imortal from conception, you cannot just splice it into your genes at a later stage (well maybe one day they can even achieve that as well).

The question remains if the human mind can accept living for hundreds and even thousands of years. We are to a point shaped by our mortality.

MEGILE
09-08-2007, 04:31 AM
Immortality? IIRC Oxygen was identified as the culprit of mortality, due to it's destructive (highly reactive) nature and effects on our DNA.

Could have been hogwash however.

Von_Rat
09-08-2007, 04:55 AM
human life span will almost certainly increase over the next few centurys. it probaly will take place in small steps so that society will have plenty of time to adjust.

i think these predictions of doom are ,, premature.

leitmotiv
09-08-2007, 05:17 AM
I fancy we are all going to be given a huge surprise by bioengineering in which the ever-present law of unintended consequences will raise its harlequin head and make a shambles of the brave new world science is, once again selling---the charlatans. Recall science predicted antibiotics would make us all invulnerable to disease, and now we are living with the consequences of the widespread use of antibiotics in humans and food-animals. The drugs impair our immune systems and have other nasty effects on our bodies.

Inevitably, the fools who rush into playing with the complex balancing act of the human body will cause a disaster, and all will shake their heads and say "We should have known."

Von_Rat
09-08-2007, 05:58 AM
im 51 and i dont remember any predictions by real scientists that antibiotics would make us all invulnerable to disease. maybe it was before my time.

antibiotics may have caused some problems due to misuse, but they have saved far far more than they have injured.

some people see doom in any scientific advance.

DKoor
09-08-2007, 06:10 AM
I feel immortal already.......in 190D pit.

DuxCorvan
09-08-2007, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
Immortality? IIRC Oxygen was identified as the culprit of mortality, due to it's destructive (highly reactive) nature and effects on our DNA.

Could have been hogwash however.

Right. Free radicals anyone? The metabolic reactions that keep us alive -this is, by 'burning' glucose in our mitochondria, or assimilating substances in our liver, aren't a clean process. The toxic residuals -that we imperfectly eliminate through our kidneys and lungs- do accumulate in our organism. They, along with the free radicals -lonely and unstable oxygen atoms, not combined in O2 molecules and ready to 'oxidate' anything they find- alter our DNA, so every generation of our tissues is less perfect and functional than the previous one. This is called 'aging'. With every breath we take, and every meal we take, we take the energy we need to live, but we release the substances that age us.

Aging is not a genetic feature that can be switched off. Aging is an unavoidable chemical flaw in the process of metabolism and cell reproduction, in fact, an anti-genetic feature, a native flaw in earth carbon-based life processes. Nature created reproduction so life can be preserved despite the inevitable death of individuals. Aging, organ failure and the finally collapse of the whole system is intimately entwined in the mechanisms of life, and is inherent to them. To tell it simply, to live is what inevitably kills us.

You can't seek immortality through biology, since death is one of the necessities for life to exist. If you want immortality, you better find a way to backup all our mind 'software' into a non-biological architecture.

leitmotiv
09-08-2007, 07:01 AM
Exactly, entropy was built-in to the species. Oxidation is nasty.

ploughman
09-08-2007, 07:11 AM
Born, rust, die.

leitmotiv
09-08-2007, 07:14 AM
I'm just an old rust bucket.

ploughman
09-08-2007, 07:16 AM
I leak more than I used to.

HotelBushranger
09-08-2007, 07:36 AM
I agree completely with Jediteo. People have to accept their mortality.

And don't worry Brando, I'll have something coming your way in a couple of months http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WhtBoy
09-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Unless they also invent a switch to turn off, "same class a$$ kickings of deadly degree", or "kinetically applied lead poisoning", or "non-elite induced blunt force trauma", etc., there will never be an immortal elite class (or any other class for that matter).

--Outlaw.