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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:17 AM
Hello everybody!

Do you use this way of firing?
I mean firing with the trigger BOTH cannons and machine guns.

Are there any pros and cons that you know about this way?

I find it much more easy to fire this way.

Waiting for your comments.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:17 AM
Hello everybody!

Do you use this way of firing?
I mean firing with the trigger BOTH cannons and machine guns.

Are there any pros and cons that you know about this way?

I find it much more easy to fire this way.

Waiting for your comments.

Zayets
07-29-2003, 07:38 AM
If you fly the Jug , fire 1+2 is a must. Set 400 and 500 for outside guns and you will have the most powerful punch in the air. Also good t spray & pray. Flying the Jug , spraying may be your only hope in a dogfight. The plane is aa pig! a beautiful one. i don't even mind if Oleg changes its FM or not. Head-ons will be my preffered maneuver with the "new" Jug.


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:38 AM
When I flew P-47, Yaks, Lagg's, 109's without pods, and late P-39's I definitely went with the one-button setup.

Now that I only fly the 190, I keep them seperate. In the A-9, I really want to keep the dual MK-108's seperate. In the A-4 and A-5 the MG-FF 20mm cannons have a much lower trajectory than the 131' and 151's, so again I like to save them for very close in firing.

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Message Edited on 07/29/0306:39AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:44 AM
I use separate triggers for MG's and cannon. I'll use my longest convergence, (usually the cannon) for a 1 shot for ranging, then the MG's to confirm range, then cannon again for the kill.
Of course if I don't have cannons, or the target is a bomber or heavily rear defended, I just make the enemy fill the gunsight and blast away.

Now, if I can only make this theory work better for me online.

(Where I am an excellent target! Ask anyone.)


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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:44 AM
Always use both 1+2... I think pokskhjeninajneaghane or whats his name did the same when he flew his P-39.
Just get in close as can be, and with one good strike they go down. In most cases anyways.



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I'd hump her.


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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:47 AM
I aways press 1+2 except when I do a very low probability shot hoping for a PK or something like that, or to try shaking a plane from a friend's 6...

Nic

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 08:01 AM
I think you'll find that you have much better results if you avoid the spray-n-pray thing, it's just wasteful and is not what they did. Personally, I wait until I'm really close, 220 yards downwards and use the machine to to 'spot' the target. If I see hits with that then simply open up with the canon.

The nice thing, IMHO, about this approach is that you save ammo, esp of the valuable canon shells, can see when you are hitting the target with the machine gun and that it works no matter what situation you are in, inc. lead shots etc.

Check this video out (9Mb) for an example of a BnZ with cannon and machine gun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.world-data-systems.com/lomac/109kill.mpg

/m

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Message Edited on 07/29/0307:08AM by ICAG_Bader

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 08:24 AM
So I guess the ones who prefer the different buttons are doing this mostly to save ammo.
If this is the only con, I'll still keep on with my one-button setup, as I am very stingy with firing.
I rarely shoot and only if very close and in a position to kill. This way I always bring back ammo and I get kills too!

It's so rare that I spent all my ammo (and mostly against lot of big bombers where their resistant is so big) that saving ammo is not a real issue to me.

I asked this because I wanted to know where firing with both guns damaged the targeting. Since this is not an issue (as I understand now), I'll keep it as now.

Thank you all guys :-)

Zayets
07-29-2003, 09:33 AM
Closing in is the best , that's no doubt. Then deliver your punch. But this is working only on FR servers where surprise factor plays 50% role in downing enemies. If you do that offline against AI fighters you will see how them will start evasive action once you've reached 400 m . You can always BnZ but some planes are just simply not made for it. If you play on servers with icons on and externals on also the surprise factor is gone and most of the time they will attempt evasive actions form far away. But here's a trick , no matter how good the human pilot is , he/she will never manage the plane as the AI is doing it. At a certain point the human will do a mistake , including you , and loose energy. Once that happens , the rest is a piece of cake. Reduce throttle a bit , align with him and shoot. A short burst will do the trick if you mapped 1+2 on a button.
On the other hand , I don't like to map gun and cannon on the same button. In the case of P39 you have a limited amount of ammo firing the 37. The ammo will go fast and you will lack the main punch on this plane. Same stays for every other planes with this combination. But again , this is a matter of prefference. Being realy close will make no difference as the burst will be realy short.Just my 0.02 euros.
Man! I miss FB , just can't wait until I will re-install my computer.


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 09:41 AM
I use button 2 for mg's = "ranging" fire and button 1 for mg's plus cannons for max fire power.

I find that pressing both button 1 and 2 throws off the aim for me. Shooting with a joystick is actually a bit like firing a rifle in that regard.

cheers/slush

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fluke39
07-29-2003, 10:15 AM
Slush69 wrote:
- I use button 2 for mg's = "ranging" fire and button
- 1 for mg's plus cannons for max fire power.
-
- I find that pressing both button 1 and 2 throws off
- the aim for me. Shooting with a joystick is actually
- a bit like firing a rifle in that regard.
-

I find my aim is put off by using two buttons also.

as far as using weapon 1+2 is concerned hoever i find it is totally subjective depending what plane i'm in - usuallyu if the is a large difference between the calibre of the weapon - and therefore ammo capacity - (ie Yak9T, 9K ,P39) then i will definitely use seperate triggers, if not i might use them together - however even with a small difference in calibre or type i find they can be used for slightly different purposes and so are usually more useful on seperate triggers.

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:27 AM
How to actually map weapons 1+2 to one button in a joy ? I didn`t manage to do that with my MSFF Sidewinder.

Will be grateful for tips.

thnx.

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 11:34 AM
Michcich_303 wrote:
- How to actually map weapons 1+2 to one button in a
- joy ? I didn`t manage to do that with my MSFF
- Sidewinder.
-
- Will be grateful for tips.
-
- thnx.
-

Hi!
You are doing it through Game Controls (in game).
First you assign one key and then assign your MSFF to that key :-)

fluke39
07-29-2003, 11:34 AM
when in game

press escape
go into controls
in the weapons section there is one slot for weapon 1+2
click on weapon 1+2 and then press the button you wish to use
click apply and return to game



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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 01:59 PM
I have 1 button for MGs, and 1 for MGs and cannon. The way I see it is that if I'm sure enough of my shot to feel that it's worth using cannon rounds then I might as well throw the MGs in there as well. As others have said, MGs on their own are useful for long range shots to try and scare opponents.

On the subject of 'pray and spray' versus getting in close and making sure, I'm sure I've read somewhere that one of the reasons why the .50 cals armament was so popular with US pilots was that the huge ammo load allowed them to use pray and spray a bit more, while German and Russian pilots were trained to get in close. When you look at the performance of the best US planes (P-47, F4U, P-51, P-38), they were all fast but not particularly manoeuvrable, so getting in close wasn't always that easy. But if you've got lots of ammo, taking more tentative longer-range shots can be a good strategy, especially as it minimizes risks to the pilot (I'm sure US pilots had the lowest loss ratio during WW2).

Just my 2 cents ...

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:24 PM
Tinyd,

"I'm sure US pilots had the lowest loss ratio during WW2".

And you are right on the money. US pilots were very well trained, before going to the battle, so they were able to use strong points of their a/c, unlike VVS pilots, that had only 40 hours of flight-time on their mounts - if so much ( American pilots had at least 200 hours, mainly more than 250).

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:26 PM
To me, there's another reason to use different buttons for MG and cannons: RECOIL!
Especially flying 109 with that big 30mm cannon, you will experience a lot of recoil every time you fire it, and with recoil it's very difficult to aim properly.
So I usually fire MG at longer distance, just to cause some sort of damage to the bogey (possibly to slow him), and only when I'm really close I fire the Mk108: one or two shots, not more...
With other aircraft I also use 1+2 on the same button.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:39 PM
I have both MG and cannons on 1 fire button.As to the theory behind firing MGs 1st and then cannon once you got closer and general convergence.I quote the great Japanese ace Suburo Sakai.

Interviewer: Did you bracket the enemy first with MG, then fire your 20mm cannon when he was in range?

Saburo Sakai: No, no no that was never true.

Interviewer: Did you set convergence on your guns?

Saburo Sakai: Yes, we had convergence. We counted on the 7.7mm because we had plenty of ammo. The ballistics was very good and fired very straight.

Interviewer: What was your convergence range for the 20mm cannon?

Saburo Sakai: In the Japanese Navy, the setting was 200 meters on the cannon. But all the pilots wanted a much closer convergence. I asked my subordinate to adjust it because it's much better closer in. So we asked the men to adjust the convergence to become much shorter.

The interview can be read here and is worth taking the time to do so:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/combatfs2/articles_sakai.asp



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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 02:50 PM
I prefer the 2 button setup as well...more control.. It really is no hassle to squeeze the trigger and hit button 3 on my stick at the same time..

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 04:07 PM
For me: Trigger (button one) MG only.
Button two is MG and cannon.
Button three is cannon only.
Button four is rockets.
So, I have all options. But I prefer to use button two (both MG and cannon) close-in and short bursts.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 04:19 PM
Personall I would and do keep machine guns and cannons seperate. Why waste alot of rounds by shooting them all at one time. You never want to get caught without ammo or the right ammo if another boogie comes into your sights, make the kill swith the least fire power unless your in a hurry.

Best advice set up seperate buttons on your stick for each.

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 04:23 PM
Offline, you can use the Red Baron's old trick of firing when you are out of range. If you are trailing too far behind an enemy to have any real chance of shooting him, fire a short burst of MG fire. Especially if you are using the gunsight view (the AI knows when you have this on), the AI will start maneuvering to avoid the fire. This will give you a chance to close in, since his evasion will almost always cause him to bleed energy.

Of course you never want to waste cannon rounds for a ruse like this.

This sometimes works in full servers as well.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 04:40 PM
I use 1 button for machinguns only and 1 button for cannon only, I use machinguns to scare and maybe kill me 262's, I shoot cannon and machinguns at the same time though. I fly the K-4, so when i get within gunnery range for cannons.... .20 Then I normally have arranged my deflection shot on approach, i normally come in kinda fast and high... then close my eyes and hold both triggers

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If the recoil was with me that day then i am pleased... it normaly is to some extent...

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 05:13 PM
As the P39 in my main ride and the armament is vastly different (37mm + .50's) I always have my triggers seperate. I do however, when that close in chance presents itself or a quick snapshot is needed) will squeeze of rounds from every gun I got!

Don't be modest EyesBlack, I've flown with you tons of times (both with and against) and u are one of the most disciplined 109 drivers I EVER seen. And it seves you well my friend, u are an amazing pilot!

S~ RCAF_Trout

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 05:18 PM
Zen_Fighter wrote:
- Do you use this way of firing?
- I mean firing with the trigger BOTH cannons and
- machine guns.

I think you have to take your stick config AND the plane into consideration as well. If you've got the buttons to spare, perhaps having one mapped to 1+2 as well sa the separate 1 & 2 is an option. For me, I have an ABII with not too many buttons, so I just use separate trigger for MGs & a secondary button for Cannons. It's a very simple matter to press both at once to get the same effect as a 1+2 button, and I still have the option of firing just one or the other. I like sneaky cannon kill shots when I can get 'em. But, that's because I'm almost always in a P-39.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 05:51 PM
Oh thx Trout, you fly your P-39 very well too, I'll fly as your wingie anytime. -=S=-

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:23 PM
Wow, tks Eyes. Does this mean we're dating now?

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:27 PM
I have enough buttons on my joystick to have 1 for cannons, one for MGs, and one for both /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I use MGs for low probability shots, when I'm close to the enemy open up with both.

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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 06:59 PM
.......... No /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:12 PM
DeerHunterUK
Thanks for the link to the Sakai interview! I had not read that one & enjoyed it very much.

As for guns, I usually use them on 2 triggers. Even when flying a P47 I tend to use them seperately, holding a little back so when the first set runs out I still have something left. Also in EAW I always wanted some for shooting up stuff on the ground on the way home.



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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 07:57 PM
Interlock both. The strategy is to maximize damage in as little amount of time as possible. One shot - one kill!

Easier said than done however, so close the range before you fire and ensure that your deflection shooting is up to par.

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 09:37 PM
Aleksandr Pokryshkin, the second highest scoring allied ace, instructed his mechanic to wire the triggers in his P-39 together. Obviously it worked for him, but being a '39 driver myself I wouldn't dream of linking the two.



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XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 09:49 PM
I keep them seperate, but I'm a Yak-9K pilot, so thats understandable. entire mg assebly would fit in the barrel of the cannon, so you can see why I keep them seperate: they are a world apart. mg is flatter trajectory, cannon has limited ammo and shakes the plane like nobody's bidness.

Only time I fire them at the same it is if I'm .01 km behind you or if I'm zooming in on a bomber.

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 04:13 PM
I can mostly speak for the 109, but a genaral rule is that even if you fire when having a clean shot (that is you open fire according to textbook procedures, range and deflection are right on) 50% of the bullets will still miss!

On the 109 then, at the moment talking about the 20mm with /7.92mm or /13mm, I´ve had several such firing solutions and what I get is an impression of putting some great firepower into the enemy when opening up with both guns... but more often than not I just find the foe is quite unhurt afterwards. The parameters were perfect and it really looked like a "first burst only burst" shot but it was an illusion.

Therefore I prefer to fire only the 20mm cannon, and then not hindered by the muzzleflashes, I can see exactly where the rounds are going. If I have a clean shot I press the trigger until it´s obvious I´m out of gun parameters. Before I made the mistake of firing only short bursts in these situations, usually releasing the trigger just when I should have hit lol.

So I have the trigger (button 1) for guns 1+2. Mostly use it for headonshots or if the cannonrounds are empty.

And button 2 for the cannon only. This option also gives you less recoil and thus a less scattered shot.

I suppose the real magic combination is else with the mg151 20mm/mg131 13mm - both weapons should have rather similar ballistics and the mg´s really add to the effect when you have focused shots. Couldn´t say the same with the 7.92mm mg´s, they don´t seem to do too much, although you could saw off an IL2 wing with them only if you get close enough and aim for the wingroot (yes, without emptying the whole mag).

With the mk108 there´s no gain in firing it with the mg´s, they doesn´t do anything for you since it only takes 2-3 rounds to bring down any fighter. And as mentioned here before there is some kind of shotgun effect already implemented with the mk108 so why add to it?

--------

On the Yaks on the other hand the 12,7mm mg´s and 20mm cannon is a real killer combination. The 20mm is pretty much on par with the german counterpart, but when you add the mg´s with it it really makes a difference. Completely rips apart anything in its way.

-------

I would say it sometimes is an issue/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

Zen_Fighter wrote:
- "I asked this because I wanted to know where firing with
- both guns damaged the targeting. Since this is not an
- issue (as I understand now), I'll keep it as now."

XyZspineZyX
08-30-2003, 05:36 PM
Tinvd and Djosha ->

- "I'm sure US pilots had the lowest loss ratio during
- WW2".

Wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Finnish Airforces had the best record in WWII in kills-losses ratio. That can be verified from almost all of the up-to-date sources. Just look for up-to-date resources in the internet (Google: Finnish Air Forces in WWII or Finnish Aces etc.) or in the literature.

Finnish achieved superior results agains the Russians with Brewsters, BF109G2s, BF109G6s, BF109G6-lates and 1 BF109G6/AS. Those were the main fighters in Finnish Air forces in Continuation War. Also in the Winter War Finns were outnumbered but superior in kills against the Russians...only planes were a little older back then.

Also the single aircraft with the most kills in the history of air war is most likely a Finnish Brewster with 44 kills (I think this was the accurate amount). This plane also survived the war.

These statistics apply only to wars where both sides had equal machinery etc. E.g. modern US Airforces has never fought against another Airforce with modern armanent or tactics...Vietnam, Iraq (twice), Jugoslavia...I think that F15 has a kill ratio of 100+ to no losses but again it has never fought against enemies that were even a close match to them.